Blind fire and free aim comments...

[Jaesperson]

yeah, of course weapons are built to kill someone efficiently. if i remember correctly, you are (were?) a professional soldier, so you have the training and proper knowledge of a soldiers' thinking nowadays.
but i can imagine that if i was in a situation where my life might last a few seconds longer, just because i raised that mp40 (as seen in the videos. we dont know if it will be possible with the MG42, for example) instead of my head above that pile of rubble and sprayed an area to maybe even hit an enemy, but at least to make them get behind their piles of rubble, i would certainly do it. i dont see why you shouldn't be able to chose that action in RO:HOS (which probably claims to be as realistic as possible), too. of course it should be more difficult to control than what it looks like in the videos we know.
we dont even know yet how that "blind firing" looks like from 3rd person perspective in game. in the video you can see where the bullets are going, so i guess some parts of your head will be exposed and you can't really consider it blind firing anymore. more like sacrificing accuracy and control for maximum cover. doesn't look like a military strategy, but rather a survival strategy to me, which is perfectly fine, from my point of view. nobody forces you to use that "ability", you are free to play the game following military drill anytime. i simply like to have the ability.

my last paragraph in the post above was just loosely citing a study i read some time ago. i wasn't talking about concealed enemies at all. i just said, that maybe they were taught to shoot to kill, but when they were in a situation to take someone's life, they just didn't (most of them. in the 40es.). the emotions that cause this can never be replicated by a videogame...

yeah, what the f***. i'm talking about a videogame here and i guess this post was way to long anyway. screw that comment about real life happenings, i simply thought it was interesting.
just leave that option in, make it nearly impossible to land 1 out of 10 bullets on a target that's more than 10 m away and i'll be happy about this addition...

 

[LionbI4]

And what experince are you speaking off of?

Based on his experience: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasily_Zaytsev for example.

 

[Ermac]

Based on his experience: [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasily_Zaytsev[/URL] for example.

It dosen't say anything about blind firing.

 

[LionbI4]

It dosen't say anything about blind firing.

By "it" you mean wikipedia?

I'm based on his book Zaytsev,Vasily (1956-1971) Notes of a Sniper: For Us There is No Land Beyond the Volga Vladivostok:Moscow/2826 Press Inc.
I don't know where can you get English translation, I read it in Russian.

 

[Flogger23m]

It dosen't say anything about blind firing.

This. Remember that blind fire = holding your weapon over your head and shooting it while behind cover/concealment like a moron.

 

[RedGuardist]

This. Remember that blind fire = holding your weapon over your head and shooting it while behind cover/concealment like a moron.

What do you mean?

Blind fire is a valid tactic. It

 

[Galslacht]

Currently in RO though from what i've experienced covering fire absolutely doesnt work at all.

That is really a downfall. Its a very vital aspect of real-life firefights/combat.

I see certain mods that try to implement it, with varying succes.

Insurgency Mod is soso, but Resistance and Liberation and Forgotten Hope 2 really has a good covering fire system (when you get fired upon you cant aim well, and get limited sight).

 

[Zetsumei]

I like basic principle of the DH system but don't like how it affects you when you hip and that the effect cannot be controlled. Personally i would prefer heavier sway and breating making your sights unalign more.

But while there are many people that are for a different supression system there are many against it as well so it depends on what the devs thin. Both the arguments for as against have their points, although my personal preference leans to a heavier supression system.

 

[Flogger23m]

Sure, there was no "blindfiring" over your head in here...

Exactly what I am talking about.



As for the cover system, it is fine in RO. A bullet going over your head does not make you stumble backwards like a drunk. In RO it does an effective job at keeping you down.

But due to the spawn based gameplay, people will always take risks. Because we can respawn in a few seconds.

Take away respawns, and this problem will still exist. Put a suppression system that gives the players seizures. The problem is still here. Why? Because it is a game. No one is afraid of dying. We'll all act stupid and careless, no matter what.

It is one of those things that can never be fixed/made realistic in a game.

 

[Zetsumei]

You wont stop people from being careless, but you can make someone being careless have the same effect as being careless in reallife. People are free to take risks but the chances of success should in my opinion be closer to reality. For that same reason i dont care if motorcycles and jeeps etc would be added in the game, as long as it would be as easy as in reallife to kill the riders on those things.

And if someone doesn't care for his life then perhaps bonuses for staying alive (preferable) and punishments for dying (generally less preferable) could be utilized to obtain that. In other games perks and stat based systems really work well for that. And again i'm not expecting anyone to get any real fear of death, i want to see a bigger will to live and reluctance to die as much as possible in an unconcious way (in which super long spawns are probably not an option due to the general unpatience of people).

As the functionality of MG's and tactics depended partly on the mental effect they inflicted, make me feel that some states of the body should be simulated in, as when you're in your heated house in the comfy chair you wont feel any loss of dexterity due to the cold, shock or being shot at. Should your mouse be nearly completely be taken over like in DH,in my opinion no but you should have some more difficulty controlling your aim and breathing calmly in my opinion.

The DH supression system minus the issue of complete incontrolability and supressing people that are hipfiring, got exactly the effect on people being shot at that one would expect to see.

 

[Flogger23m]

You wont stop people from being careless, but you can make someone being careless have the same effect as being careless in reallife.

Sometimes promoting unrealistic things to force realism is not actually realistic at all. Read that a few times to see if that makes sense.


In the end, it is a game. A game with respawns. People will still try and shoot back at the enemy, even the effect is that of them standing in a hurricane with 100 MPH winds.

I play at the same pace and with the same aggression in DH as I do normal RO, and this is what I see from most people.

 

[Zetsumei]

Sometimes promoting unrealistic things to force realism is not actually realistic at all. Read that a few times to see if that makes sense.

In the end, it is a game. A game with respawns. People will still try and shoot back at the enemy, even the effect is that of them standing in a hurricane with 100 MPH winds.

I play at the same pace and with the same aggression in DH as I do normal RO, and this is what I see from most people.

The thing is you can promote the features as both realistic and unrealistic, for both sides there are enough valid arguments, what it boils down to is preference and perspective both in the gameplay as in the realism departments.

A game with or without spawns will have people shooting back at an enemy, and i don't see what is bad about that. But if they stand in a hurricane with 100mph winds it just should be harder to shoot back than when resting on a bench at a firing range on a bright sunny day. Should people getting shot at by an mg get the effect of being in a hurricane with 100mph winds no, they however should have the same difficulties with shooting as someone in the reallife would have when being shot at by an mg.

As far as i know DH doesn't have any sytem in place to aim and direct players to make people care more for their lives. (if anything you can get quicker to the action often than in default ost).

The supression system got nothing to do with that, what DH's supression system does well is making it harder to fire pixel perfect at an mg (or another volume fire weapon) thats firing directly at your position. This makes it possible to use supressive fire manouvers and use it as a tactic, and in that the DH system actually works really well.

I know my english ain't perfect but please try to see what i'm actually trying to say. As on quite some of your points you go in on some assumptions that i never made :X.

 

[Galslacht]

although my personal preference leans to a heavier supression system.

Yea, the more it comes to harmonious realism, the better. It is hard to develop such a supression system when I see the develop-proces of the DH, FH2 and RnL mods.

The most important thing to wether or not to implement such a system, is the intended nature of the game.
We'll see, I wont be disappointed if there is none

 

[Galslacht]

Sometimes promoting unrealistic things to force realism is not actually realistic at all. Read that a few times to see if that makes sense.

Sometimes adding unrealistic things into a game to promote realism can be justified in sake for the realism, because it is a videogame.

If it enhances the feel of realism, without being realistic at all at first sight, I think it is a good thing.

This is about pioneering in a per definition unrealistic, virtual world.

 

[Ermac]

What do you mean?

Blind fire is a valid tactic. It

 

[Flogger23m]

This makes it possible to use supressive fire manouvers and use it as a tactic, and in that the DH system actually works really well.

.

Not really, in RO OST it is pretty hard to shoot back at an MG with extremely accuracy. You start to sway more, and your vision gets blurry (like you're blinking a lot).

And that is all it should be.

In real life, it definitively is possible to shoot back at an enemy when bullets are going over your head. It won't be as easy, but it is possible.

If the player decides to continue staying exposed, they will likely be shot and killed.

When you put over the top suppression effects and blind fire, the gameplay will turn into a blind fire fest. Which is not that realistic.

Forcing the flow of gameplay is not a good thing IMO.


As in RO OST, the suppression works great. Start shooting in the general direction of someone, and they will duck and stop firing back temporarily.

 

[Zetsumei]

Well there we disagree then, i never noticed any sway as when an mg fires at me i'm usually resting my rifle (and exactly against those kinda guys the actual supression is needed for). The blur however is so subtile that i can see and return fire on an mg of a pixel big with ease (and in all honesty im absolutely crap at RO nowadays). I would be delighted to try it out with you on a server if you could add me to your steam.

Pretty much the only thing a mg can do atm is kill me before i fire off my shot. The only blur that starts making it hard to hit something is the blurring that occurs when arty falls next to you.

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You said yourself that you still play exactly the same in DH, so i don't see how it will change the flow of gameplay that much, especially as i personally prefer a more controllable system than DH.

Supression was a foundation for a lot of infantry tactics, and thats why i think its important that supression in the game works. Things like covering fire and supressive fire have no effect currently in ro, all you do is draw attention to yourself and get shot quicker.

The few times i've read things about utilizing blind fire its primarily used to exactly suppress the enemy before entering say a room, and not to hit the enemy.

 

[RedGuardist]

I don't know what army your from. Blind firing is a waste of ammo and can cause uintended casualties. We aren't really talking about grenades here.

The "blindfire" in game seems to be needing some work, no doubt. And yes, blindfiring over your head is maybe not the most effective and intelligent thing you can do in a firefight. But it

 

[LionbI4]

I could surprise you guys, but suppression effect works in Americas Army 2, even without ANY suppression effects.
This means if someone is shooting from window, it is enough to shot into that window to stop enemy shooting.
Tbh, all artificial suppression effects will not work in RO, since they will never work like in real life.
Suppression comes from mind. People don't want to die, so they hide.
If they want to kill an enemy MORE than not to die - you will never really suppress them.
This unrealistic gameplay behavior comes from another unrealistic behavior - respawn.
For me, its very annoying in DH, then friendly is shooting near me into enemy direction, and I'm suppressed by my friendly.
I think morale system will be annoying as well. Unrealistic artificial addition, which again brings some sort of "fear effect".
How about if you want to have fear of death - make people not want to die.
Do you guys noticed, how perfect suppressive effect works, when reinforcements are 0% ?

 

[Zetsumei]

Tbh the highest fear of death i see in games, are not in games with 1 life like for example counterstrike but rather in mmorpgs and thats why i know that stat changes can help in someone wanting to stay alive. DH's system isn't perfect and there are lots of small annoyances but i think its a good base for suppression in the territory respawn gametype.

There will be a 1 life game mode, and there will be territory mode which is more like regular ro. Most of the people in here like RO exactly for the territory gametype as it gives the feeling of being part in a more big battle rather than a covert op mission. And thats why i think everybody is talking about that exact gametype.

A second important note is: to make an mg more fearsome is basically making it more fearsome. One of the things is indeed the added penetration, but it needs accuracy nearly equal to rifleman as well.