About infantry vs infantry and the way it should be

[futurenhler]

SMGs are not that heavy, and the recoil isn't that bad. Since an SMG is a compact, light weapon, it is easier to compensate recoil, and if you have a crappy mouse/ mousepad it is nearly impossible to hit ****. To make this game better, there needs to be shoulder-running weapon firing sort of dealio. Shooting from the hip you should still be able to hit things 10 metres away with enough shots. The game should automatically, not really just automatically, but the game should compensate for recoil when you shoot from the hip

The shoulder dealie should be done as so, you see them running with it at the shoulder. There should be a firing mode from teh shoulder that isn't IS. More accuracy and control over recoil than HS, but less than IS

 

[Phoenix-D]

Correct, the only thing I've fired in RL is a breach-loader net gun that would knock you on your ass if you fired it from the hip. I see the point about letting the gun go back, though.

I'm against compensating for recoil in the game. It can be done already with the mouse, and doing it automaticlly removes a skill aspect from the game.

Shouldering should be possible. I'm not sure how to impliment it, though; its already quite easy to aim from the hip at short range with practice..

 

[Elvis]

I am a pretty experienced shooter (I collect and shoot WW2 era military rifles mostly) with some (not a lot) experience with SMGs and the recoil of the SMGs in the game feels about right to me. I've only shot full-auto weapons a few times but I can tell you that it takes a lot of work to keep the muzzle rise under control with even a fairly heavy SMG with a moderate rate of fire. My first full auto experience was with a 9mm Uzi, which compares roughly in size, weight and rate of fire with an MP40. Shooting bursts of 6-8 rounds from the shoulder, using the stock and sights, I would aim at the waist of a police training sillhouette at 50 feet. The first round would hit at point of aim, then there would be a couple more in the chest/shoulder area and the rest would impact over the shoulder.

While I'm sure this could be improved upon somewhat with practice, this seems to be about what you get when you fire a burst from the standing position in the game. In real life, you can alter your stance and pull down with your support hand to compensate for recoil. In the game, this is simulated by pulling down with the mouse when you're shooting, Either way, in real life or in game, it requires practice and concentration.

The other SMG I've fired is a suppressed MAC-10 in .45. Much faster rate of fire, faster even than a PPSh, and very hard to control, even with the long, heavy suppressor attached. Worse than the PPSh in the game. The guy who owned this gun shot it a lot, along with various other weapons, and he couldn't do much better with it than I did.

The problem with controlling SMGs in real life isn't the recoil of the individual shots but the cumulative muzzle rise that comes with full-auto firing. Shooting semi-automatically, you can achieve a rhythm (which gets faster with practice) in which you aim the first shot and then press the trigger again, repeatedly, as the gun comes back down from recoil. The less the weapon recoils, the faster and more accurately this can be done, but it's a whole different ballgame when the gun is firing full auto.

I think the infamous video of the woman running a whole magazine through the PPSh without letting go of the trigger is deceptive. For one thing, she's working pretty hard to keep that muzzle down, and as I think someone mentioned here, just a slight change in muzzle angle makes a big difference downrange, increasing with distance. I'd like to see the same video shot from a rear angle so you could see where the bullets actually impacted. I'm betting they were all over the place.

That IS guano.
Going to the range a couple of times is not experience. The video is not deceptive. The young lady is showing how people who actually DO have experience fire full auto weapons. People like, um, SOLDIERS, who are fighting for their lives in WW II.

 

[Bat Guano]

That IS guano.
Going to the range a couple of times is not experience. The video is not deceptive. The young lady is showing how people who actually DO have experience fire full auto weapons. People like, um, SOLDIERS, who are fighting for their lives in WW II.

OK, fair enough, I was just comparing my impression of what's in the game based on my admittedly limited real life experience. I'm open to others' thoughts and impressions as well. How do the submachine guns in the game compare to your real life experience with them, Elvis?

 

[Elvis]

I'm sorry, that did come off a little strong. I've spent a lot of time firing full auto weapons, and they are in no way anything like the game. I think the crux of this recoil issue is that people who have real world experience with these weapons have certain expectations about how they might be expected to act in the game. Those who haven't fired these weapons don't have the same expectations, and thus do not experience the rather disconcerting experience of being in a situation in the game where, according to one's trained in reflexes, everything should be going right, but is actually going more like a roll of the dice.

 

[Byte Me]

Yeah right, I wish...

Yeah right, I wish...

Bat Guano
Shooting bursts of 6-8 rounds from the shoulder, using the stock and sights, I would aim at the waist of a police training sillhouette at 50 feet. The first round would hit at point of aim, then there would be a couple more in the chest/shoulder area and the rest would impact over the shoulder.

While I'm sure this could be improved upon somewhat with practice, this seems to be about what you get when you fire a burst from the standing position in the game.

Unless I see a video of you, in the game, nailing people with smg bursts while standing and unsupported, several times in row, without lag being factor from you or the enemy (which also means no bots), at 50 feet, I don't believe this at all.

 

[PGD03]

Btw MAC10 is known to be horrible to shoot, compared to most I doubt that any pros are using that crappy old thing..

The thing about recoil I'd like to see is that it has nothing to do with your mouse sensitivity settings. People have personal preferrings and if high sensitivity is favored it gives advantage to those who prefer it that way. Not that I agree that devs have made recoil like that on purpose for player to control it by pushing or pulling anyway. And like said before, pulling/pushing the muzzle down with your mouse does not reduce it from bouncing sideways..

Imo recoil should make the weapon throw the muzzle around and depending on the weapon continuously increase it, no matter what you do, until you release the trigger. That would simulate the recoil and how the soldier is trying to control it. To the player is left the decision whether he/she should release the trigger and start another burst to get better accuracy or continue fireing. That way everybody had equal way to control it and make their decisions.

 

[Bat Guano]

Byte Me,
I think you and I were looking at things differently. My point wasn't that SMGs in game are easy to control; it was that SMGs in real life are difficult to control. i don't see being able to keep only the first three rounds of a full-auto burst on a human-sized target, when aiming low, at 50 feet (which I consider pretty close range) to be particularly effective. I was trying to say that the muzzle climb that people complain about in the game feels to me pretty similar to real life. Just my impression and not based on any rigorous testing though.

PGD03,
You're absolutely right about the MAC-10. It's a poor example but at least I fired it with the suppressor on, which would have aided controllability a little bit. It adds quite a bit of mass to the front end. By the way, the guy who owned it finally got bored with it and sold it, after a couple of years and who knows how many thousands of rounds hosed downrange. About the only thing MAC -10s have going for them is that they're cheap as far as SMGs go in the U.S.

 

[Byte Me]

Bat Guano
I think you and I were looking at things differently. My point wasn't that SMGs in game are easy to control; it was that SMGs in real life are difficult to control. i don't see being able to keep only the first three rounds of a full-auto burst on a human-sized target, when aiming low, at 50 feet (which I consider pretty close range) to be particularly effective. I was trying to say that the muzzle climb that people complain about in the game feels to me pretty similar to real life. Just my impression and not based on any rigorous testing though.

I'm so confused. Let me try to get this straight. First, you stated that IRL you hit man size targets, while aiming at there waist, from 50 feet with a smg, while standing and unsupported. Then you said this was pretty close to how it was in the game. But if that were true then in the game, under those same conditions, the smgs would land about 3 hits, which they don't , at least not with the amount of consistency which you spoke of. Thats were I think the misunderstaning happened because I have never heard, seen, or been able to do that in game. Thats why I said, "I don't believe that at all." I hope that cleared things up.

 

[Bat Guano]

Byte Me,
I think our problem might be with perception of distance in the game. I've heard that distances are actually closer than most people think, so maybe what looks like 50 feet to me is actually closer than that. In other words, when I think "50 feet" I have an image of something on the screen that's fairly close, and when you think "50 feet" you have an image of something farther away than what I am thinking of.

 

[Grobut]

Well, Bat, from my own limited real word experiance, we can agree that controlling an SMG outside of a short burst is not easy, keeping bursts at 3 i was hitting the target, 5 and my grouping suffered quite a bit, any more than that and i was missing the target!

What i dont agree with, however, is that this is well reprisented in RO:O, well ok the MP-40 works pretty well, but definately with the russian SMG's i am only hitting with one shot allmost regardless of range, infact its only when im well into a burst, like 10 rounds allready fired from the PPSH, i start getting a baring on the target again (trying to control the recoil) and start getting hits or near misses, but thats a lot of ammo to waste on one target, and it does not match what i saw in real life, where the initial 3 rounds or so where controllable but any more than that and it was not (and that was fiering from a standing position).

Tapping the mouse button i can easilly make 2 round bursts with the PPSH, but its useless, the second round hits the clouds, thats not good..

I think the real problem here is one of instinct, once i had made a few bursts in real life i knew what to expect and reacted accordingly without even thinking about it, i think thats why i could hit in bursts, but that does not happen in RO:O, you just dont have that kind of feel for whats going on, and thus, controling that burst is a roll of the dice, you try pulling a bit down, and sometimes you get lucky, but most of the time you pull too little or too much.. you just dont have that fine-motoric muscle reaction with a mouse, going only from visual cues, that you do in real life, actually feeling whats happening and having your whole upper body and arms to balance it all out.

The result is, its way too difficult to use burst fire in RO:O.

 

[Grobut]

I decided to test if there was some difference in recoil between the weapons, and found that there is none..

The test was simple, i found a place on the map that both the Russians and Germans can acess, and fired at a wall with some windows textured on, allways fiering at the same spot on the same window whilst standing and aimed, i fired exactly 3 times, not touching the mouse (infact i bound the fire key to the keyboard).

The result was not very good, nomatter what the weapon, once 3 rounds had been fired i was aiming at the same place (well, the same hight, sideways recoil seems to be random).

That ignores two basic things, the 7.62x25 has less recoil than a 9x19mm, and i know the PPSH-41 had a recoil compensator (not sure about the PPD-40, and i dont think the PPS-43 had one), not good...

 

[Zbojnik]

Excellent tv-series. I have it on DVD and watched it about million times That's the way they taught hip-shooting for US soldiers. I bet other participating countries taught something like that too. Well at least germans and some of russian troops too althought russians had emphasis more on mass then skill in the beginning of the war.

If I could remember the name of the book about US close combat training... I have it somewhere but don't know where..

Yes, quite the series. I watched it first on HBO then borrowed the DVD set from a friend and watched them. So awesome.

 

[Rah!]

That ignores two basic things, the 7.62x25 has less recoil than a 9x19mm, and i know the PPSH-41 had a recoil compensator (not sure about the PPD-40, and i dont think the PPS-43 had one), not good...

The PPS-43 did have a muzzle brake.

Here's my very long take on it all:

I could be wrong, as this might already be coded into RO, but wouldn