About infantry vs infantry and the way it should be

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PGD03

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 30, 2006
123
10
0
First of all I'll start by saying only movement, rifles and smgs are the matter under consideration in this topic.

When I got this game I got an impression it would be realism that is important. Now I see it's not. There's people here in the forums who never fired a shot or haven't even dug in the library to find out about things and still they are stating their opinions as real life facts. Or crying about balance. So frustrating!!!!!

Ok..enough with flaming..

First thing. There are mainly two types of weapons you can carry while running around the battlefield and getting killed: smgs and rifles. Basically smgs were designed for close range combat when the fire rate is more important to pepper one or several enemies in rapid succession then long range accuracy whereas rifles are more accurate long range but have low fire rate. These two types of weapons have different tasks in the battlefield in rl and in ROOR.

Now, what is wrong with these weapons in the game. Well I don't see anything wrong with the rifles, they are accurate but the smgs.. Well they are inaccurate and have high rate of fire. The wrong part is lack of control, in other words overdone recoil. Some of you might have seen these before:
http://www.ppsh41.com/mpg.html
http://www.onlythebestfirearms.com/videos/V-MP40.mpg

Surely it's luck if you hit your target 100m away squeezing the trigger til you dry out but shorter rangers you can be devastating. And before anyone gets whiney I suggest to think those roles of different weapons in the battlefield..

The second thing about lack of control has to do with movement. ROOR lacks realistic way to move. There's only two ways to move: hip or is. Both are crap if your dealing with cqb situations. Hip is too inaccurate and is too slow. I know there's suggestion about shouldering but that's not a real life thing. Here's another video to show what it's about irl:http://youtube.com/watch?v=saMMKKmOpEk and http://youtube.com/watch?v=kGG3djVGeSA (there's more cool videos there too)

So there should be three movement modes:
Hip:run, sprint with your weapon down by your hip like now
Stock shouldered: slower then run, fast switch to iron sight
Iron sight: as it's now, sloooooow walking.

So to put this into practice I'd keep hip as it's now but when you press sprint while holding IS up it would make your soldier go faster but keeping stock shouldered and pointing barrel 45 degrees down. Releasing would get you back to IS.

Since that solution would require new animation it would be more simple to add speed in IS when pressing sprint and compensate speed with more weapon shake.

These are my thoughts in a nutshell. I'm hoping dev contact will read this and take it to the others.. This is my view how things could be more real and fun to play. And I enhance the word REAL.

I'm eager to see you other guys in the community trashing my ideas ;) So go ahead and make a comment :D
 

Redemption

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 22, 2005
159
19
0
34
Sheridan, Michigan
I am in full agreement about the overly done recoil, and I also agree with your ideas about movement. That would make the game a whole lot more realistic and fun for me and I'm sure a lot of others would agree. Though I doubt we will see this any time soon if at all, (tanks need fixing before anything) it is a welcome glance into what could be, and that looks like an amazing addition.
 

kfnguy2

FNG / Fresh Meat
Dec 11, 2005
176
0
0
PGD03 said:
First of all I'll start by saying only movement, rifles and smgs are the matter under consideration in this topic.

When I got this game I got an impression it would be realism that is important. Now I see it's not. There's people here in the forums who never fired a shot or haven't even dug in the library to find out about things and still they are stating their opinions as real life facts. Or crying about balance. So frustrating!!!!!

Ok..enough with flaming..

First thing. There are mainly two types of weapons you can carry while running around the battlefield and getting killed: smgs and rifles. Basically smgs were designed for close range combat when the fire rate is more important to pepper one or several enemies in rapid succession then long range accuracy whereas rifles are more accurate long range but have low fire rate. These two types of weapons have different tasks in the battlefield in rl and in ROOR.

Now, what is wrong with these weapons in the game. Well I don't see anything wrong with the rifles, they are accurate but the smgs.. Well they are inaccurate and have high rate of fire. The wrong part is lack of control, in other words overdone recoil. Some of you might have seen these before:
http://www.ppsh41.com/mpg.html
http://www.onlythebestfirearms.com/videos/V-MP40.mpg

Surely it's luck if you hit your target 100m away squeezing the trigger til you dry out but shorter rangers you can be devastating. And before anyone gets whiney I suggest to think those roles of different weapons in the battlefield..

The second thing about lack of control has to do with movement. ROOR lacks realistic way to move. There's only two ways to move: hip or is. Both are crap if your dealing with cqb situations. Hip is too inaccurate and is too slow. I know there's suggestion about shouldering but that's not a real life thing. Here's another video to show what it's about irl:http://youtube.com/watch?v=saMMKKmOpEk and http://youtube.com/watch?v=kGG3djVGeSA (there's more cool videos there too)

So there should be three movement modes:
Hip:run, sprint with your weapon down by your hip like now
Stock shouldered: slower then run, fast switch to iron sight
Iron sight: as it's now, sloooooow walking.

So to put this into practice I'd keep hip as it's now but when you press sprint while holding IS up it would make your soldier go faster but keeping stock shouldered and pointing barrel 45 degrees down. Releasing would get you back to IS.

Since that solution would require new animation it would be more simple to add speed in IS when pressing sprint and compensate speed with more weapon shake.

These are my thoughts in a nutshell. I'm hoping dev contact will read this and take it to the others.. This is my view how things could be more real and fun to play. And I enhance the word REAL.

I'm eager to see you other guys in the community trashing my ideas ;) So go ahead and make a comment :D
First off it was an unfair statement to come in here and say the game isn't realistic. I mean of course it's not like real life... But is any game? I think this is the closest we will be for a while. This is a "Realism game" but that doesn't mean it's gonna feel completely real... It just means it follows as close to real life as possible. As in weapons, uniforms, etc.

I agree with your 3 modes as I have always been an advocate of these as well for RO.

So how does RO not allow for "Close range killing a couple people with SMG's" and "long range superiority with rifles?" Because that's all I see. But I do agree the recoil is overdone for SMG's.

And by the way, I am "One of the people who has shot a weapon in real life." I own a MN91/30 and have shot a friends PPSH41.
 

Byte Me

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 9, 2006
909
0
0
Virginia, USA
ROOR? :confused: Anyways, yes smgs are crap even at medium range. None are of really any use beyond 20 feet, the mp40 beats all smgs HANDS DOWN and thats not saying much. You can hardly even suppress with the sheer amount of recoil the smgs have. I have not fired a smg full auto, but I have fired 9mm pistols (couldn't get my hands on any that fired the russian round). Its not totally weak, there is some kick, but not much. Besides a smg ways much more than a pistol, the mp40 weighs almost 4 times as much the P38.

Ok I'm confused with the movement part. First you say shouldering is unrealistic, then you say there should be shouldering... so yeah I dunno. I'm all for shouldering, personally. Again you want realism yet you say we should be able to run in IS? I know you wanted to take a shortcut to avoid new animations, but either go all the way or don't. The devs ain't got time to do a whole bunch of things half way. Oh and next time, please use the search feature.
 

Redemption

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 22, 2005
159
19
0
34
Sheridan, Michigan
Byte Me said:
Again you want realism yet you say we should be able to run in IS?

He's saying make it the way it is after you fire a round with the rifle now, how the gun is rested on your shoulder and pointed downward while running, not in full IS
 

LordKhaine

FNG / Fresh Meat
Dec 19, 2005
1,008
120
0
UK
Yeah the recoil is over the top imho, but it's just about doable with the mp40 ingame. Unhipped ppsh fire from the hip is just a joke though, you will be shooting the ceiling within seconds.

The current situation leaves a lot to be desired but it has made a great improvement from the mod. In the mod aimed fire was for the most part so ineffective that people never bothered to aim with smgs. At least now if I'm in a decent position I'll consider firing an SMG at distant targets instead of just running away and hiding.
 

Hyperion2010

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 22, 2005
2,560
1
0
33
NC
There is zero problem with recoil in the game. All you have to do is actively compensate for it by "pulling down" just like you would have to IRL. Weapons require the same ammount of effort to control in game as they do IRL.
 

PGD03

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 30, 2006
123
10
0
Redemption said:
He's saying make it the way it is after you fire a round with the rifle now, how the gun is rested on your shoulder and pointed downward while running, not in full IS
This would be the cooler way to do it.

Byte Me said:
Ok I'm confused with the movement part. First you say shouldering is unrealistic, then you say there should be shouldering... so yeah I dunno. I'm all for shouldering, personally. Again you want realism yet you say we should be able to run in IS?
No I mean shouldering while shooting isn't desirable. If you got your weapon lifted up why not use iron sight?? To me shouldering means having stock against your shoulder. And shouldering while moving is better option imo.

And I don't mean RUNNING in is mode, I mean moving faster. Did you check the videos? It's a common thing in tactical. Real pros keep quite a rapid pace while shooting.

And the method above would be less cooler but acceptable at least for me.
 

PGD03

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 30, 2006
123
10
0
Hyperion2010 said:
There is zero problem with recoil in the game. All you have to do is actively compensate for it by "pulling down" just like you would have to IRL. Weapons require the same ammount of effort to control in game as they do IRL.
It's a problem if you have to shoot much because then you are pulling your mouse of the table or like I myself using invert axis pushing the mouse behind the display. And it is a problem since most smgs aren't that hard to handle unless your a grandma in a wheelchair http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8478238285671811588&pl=true

:D:D:D
 

82ndfrag

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 14, 2006
166
0
0
Hahaha, love that video lol.... toodles rofl...

But I do agree with just about everthing you said
PGD, would be nice to at least have them test it :rolleyes:
 

rrp

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 26, 2006
26
3
0
turn up mouse sensitivity if your having to move it to much,dont hold the trigger and spray to avoid loads of recoil?While its not completely accurate id rather see mgs as a more difficult roll since it greatly reduces run n gunners
 

Ghad

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 21, 2005
1,057
6
0
Bergen, Norway
www.battlefield.no
Hyperion2010 said:
There is zero problem with recoil in the game. All you have to do is actively compensate for it by "pulling down" just like you would have to IRL. Weapons require the same ammount of effort to control in game as they do IRL.
I was wondering if I was the only one doing this?


PGD03 said:
And it is a problem since most smgs aren't that hard to handle unless your a grandma in a wheelchair http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8478238285671811588&pl=true

:D:D:D

OMG HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH loooooool lmao
 

Zbojnik

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 30, 2006
670
0
0
Chicago
Ok. The recoil is not overdone. You can not see the recoil because the man automatically compensates for it. I like your movement ideas and agree with them but in my opinion the recoil is fine.
 

Byte Me

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 9, 2006
909
0
0
Virginia, USA
Of course you can pull down your mouse to compensate for upward recoil, but you can't do **** to combat the side to side recoil. Which throws your shots way off (most noticable on the russian smgs) and makes it, more or less, a spray cannon. And why wouldn't shooting while shouldered be desirable? You get a smaller free aim zone than hip, but the bottom of your view isn't blocked by IS and you don't move as slow, its the best of both worlds. Besides that, how well do you think the grunts in game are trained? Your talking about pros, the men portrayed in this game ain't getting anywhere near that amount of training.
 
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shadowmoses

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 14, 2006
688
235
0
PGD03 said:
but the smgs.. Well they are inaccurate and have high rate of fire. The wrong part is lack of control, in other words overdone recoil.
yes and no...
I think the Mp40 and the stg are perfect.
the ppsh are a bit more powerful with a tiny bit too much recoil but not much...
i own both the mp40 and the stg...aswell as an ppsh41 (wich ive only let myself fire 3 or so times do to its value and quality).
but i must say that they are pretty hard to control if you arent used to their recoil.
 

PGD03

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 30, 2006
123
10
0
Zbojnik said:
Ok. The recoil is not overdone. You can not see the recoil because the man automatically compensates for it. I like your movement ideas and agree with them but in my opinion the recoil is fine.
Of course he compensates. But I think it's not your job to do that. I think that weapons should be like handled by someone experienced not like that grandma on the video. And even if you use your mouse to compensate...(continues after next quote)

Byte Me said:
Of course you can pull down your mouse to compensate for upward recoil, but you can't do **** to combat the side to side recoil. Which throws your shots way off (most noticable on the russian smgs) and makes it, more or less, a spray cannon.
You're right when you are right m8.

Byte Me said:
And why wouldn't shooting while shouldered be desirable? You get a smaller free aim zone than hip, but the bottom of your view isn't blocked by IS and you don't move as slow, its the best of both worlds. Besides that, how well do you think the grunts in game are trained? Your talking about pros, the men portrayed in this game ain't getting anywhere near that amount of training.
Maybe I don't get what is meant by shouldering. To me it is holdin your weapon up like your doing normally.

Well I don't mean that they should be like those pros in the video but cqb and room clearing tactics like that were already used in WW2. Well not with that fancy equipment but fragging and clearing etc. Russians had a lot untrained men in the war, some of them had never held a weapon before and actually got their first only after when some other noob died. But those who survived learned. AND germans had their troops superiorly trained. They were thought infantry tactics in combat. (Btw way, check the downloads section of these pages, theres some pdf reading) It's normal procedure in military training. Even here in the land of 6-12 months compulsory military service those tactics are introduced and trained...

shadowmoses said:
yes and no...
I think the Mp40 and the stg are perfect.
the ppsh are a bit more powerful with a tiny bit too much recoil but not much...
i own both the mp40 and the stg...aswell as an ppsh41 (wich ive only let myself fire 3 or so times do to its value and quality).
but i must say that they are pretty hard to control if you arent used to their recoil.
I haven't tried stg full auto that much, I mostly use it semi auto (in the game i mean) but agree that MP40 is much better then PPSh. Actually they don't fit even on the same page. Supported PPSh is awesome but that's about it. But I don't think recoil should be like the gun is handled by a noob. The game starts from -41 so those who have survived have been fighting for two years already. So they should be like veterans by then. They should deal with recoil like those guys in the video. Even that lady in the PPSh video is dealing with it better than our soldiers in the game. Agree??
 

CaptRanger

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 15, 2006
432
31
0
www.highest-degree.com
PGD03 said:
First of all I'll start by saying only movement, rifles and smgs are the matter under consideration in this topic.

When I got this game I got an impression it would be realism that is important. Now I see it's not. There's people here in the forums who never fired a shot or haven't even dug in the library to find out about things and still they are stating their opinions as real life facts. Or crying about balance. So frustrating!!!!!

Ok..enough with flaming..

First thing. There are mainly two types of weapons you can carry while running around the battlefield and getting killed: smgs and rifles. Basically smgs were designed for close range combat when the fire rate is more important to pepper one or several enemies in rapid succession then long range accuracy whereas rifles are more accurate long range but have low fire rate. These two types of weapons have different tasks in the battlefield in rl and in ROOR.

Now, what is wrong with these weapons in the game. Well I don't see anything wrong with the rifles, they are accurate but the smgs.. Well they are inaccurate and have high rate of fire. The wrong part is lack of control, in other words overdone recoil. Some of you might have seen these before:
http://www.ppsh41.com/mpg.html
http://www.onlythebestfirearms.com/videos/V-MP40.mpg

Surely it's luck if you hit your target 100m away squeezing the trigger til you dry out but shorter rangers you can be devastating. And before anyone gets whiney I suggest to think those roles of different weapons in the battlefield..

The second thing about lack of control has to do with movement. ROOR lacks realistic way to move. There's only two ways to move: hip or is. Both are crap if your dealing with cqb situations. Hip is too inaccurate and is too slow. I know there's suggestion about shouldering but that's not a real life thing. Here's another video to show what it's about irl:http://youtube.com/watch?v=saMMKKmOpEk and http://youtube.com/watch?v=kGG3djVGeSA (there's more cool videos there too)

So there should be three movement modes:
Hip:run, sprint with your weapon down by your hip like now
Stock shouldered: slower then run, fast switch to iron sight
Iron sight: as it's now, sloooooow walking.

So to put this into practice I'd keep hip as it's now but when you press sprint while holding IS up it would make your soldier go faster but keeping stock shouldered and pointing barrel 45 degrees down. Releasing would get you back to IS.

Since that solution would require new animation it would be more simple to add speed in IS when pressing sprint and compensate speed with more weapon shake.

These are my thoughts in a nutshell. I'm hoping dev contact will read this and take it to the others.. This is my view how things could be more real and fun to play. And I enhance the word REAL.

I'm eager to see you other guys in the community trashing my ideas ;) So go ahead and make a comment :D
I don't see why you would need to flame people for giving their opinions or suggestions at all. That's the beauty of a public forum, everyone can say what they want and those in the know can go through it all and choose to heed what they want. You don't have to be highly experienced to still have fresh, new ideas.

Now that's out of the way, I think you're correct about the smg's having too high of recoil. I've fired m4a1's which have a very comparable ammo size and rate of fire and they don't kick nearly as much as what is shown in game.

But, this brings me to my next point. You are comparing apples to bowling balls when you show a video of modern squad tactics and use it to support changes in a WWII game. Tactics and squad movements have changed drastically to say the least since WWII, especially compared to the conscript level of training of many common infantry units. They would not be able to move as fast or with nearly the same precision with their iron sights as compared to a modern soldier. I can tell you first hand that CQ moments and urban warfare SOP is drilled into your head over and over again in the modern army. This is done so soldiers will move fluidly, accurately, and deliberately. Not only did they not have this training, but their weaponry wasn't meant for heavy CQ action. The smg’s were heavy in modern standards and that right there will hinder accuracy when holding a gun at iron sights in CQ. Heck, it almost looks as if the MP40 had a stock put on it as an after-thought!

I support hip-shooting as the best solution for smg’s in this game. I believe that's how they would be used in CQ in WWII for the most part. However, a “shouldering” view should be given for people carrying rifles because if an infantryman in WWII was going into CQ combat, they would try to do quick shots from this view or melee.
 
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The_Countess

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 24, 2005
785
0
0
The Netherlands
Byte Me said:
Of course you can pull down your mouse to compensate for upward recoil, but you can't do **** to combat the side to side recoil.

try shooting your weapon when your not completley winded from sprinting around all the time. the side to side is fine.