A question about the realism for TWI

[timur]

This game will be no where near the hardcore Ro1.
I mean, it has a UAV.....Uh...."Areal recon plane" in it. So the good old fashion finding the enemy for yourself is not longer there, it has been replaced by a glowing red dot on your compass.
This will be the best call of dut......Uh....red orchestra eva!11

From what I've seen, it is hardly extreme, but thanks for jacking the paranoia and anxiety levels up in these forums! We really needed that!

Anyways, the recon planes ,which, from what I've told, are far less radar-y than CoD, don't even determine the rest of the gameplay. Its all fine and dandy, but oh! Theres a plane that detects people in open areas in a realistic fashion and places them in the commanders map, and may be shot down! That automatically makes it CoD...

 

[LemoN]

I thought it only showed up on the commander's map.

Actually no, there will be a slight delay for each "group" of people.

Commander = instant
SL = slight delay
Grunts = 3-4 second delay

At last this is how John described it a couple of moons ago, has probably been changed already... but we don't know how.

 

[aD.Luoson]

Just to clarify further, If you are inside you wont be spotted, The commander has to stand next to the Radio machine for the spotter plane to work and he will be out of the action (unlikey to have people camping radios for long periods of time) .. It's on a cool down (3mins) and i believe its not on every map

 

[Apos]

Arma is too open for my taste. I like freedom but the size of arma battlefields takes it too far for player vs player action in my opinion. ArmA is a nice game but should mostly be played co-op in my opinion.

I disagree because ArmA 2 gives you total freedom how your gameplay might look a like. You can have:
- small, 100x100m urban maps full of buildings, obstacles and crowded with players
- medium size maps, with buildings, open fields, woods etc
- huge, even 20km x 20km maps with cities, villages lakes, seas, etc

It's also great game for competitive PvP communities of all kinds because you can adjust all rules of server and gameplay. So you can play typical clan vs clan clanwars with different objectives (TDM, CTF or RO type gameplay with capturable objectives) aswell as campaign, casual operations and all other players type activities.
You should try it, because most of people judge ArmA 2 after few minutes or hours of casual freeplay at random server. No, ArmA 2 is teamplay game designed for communities. Also you can't judge ArmA 2 after playing it w/o ACE, ACRE and other great addons which redefine fun and realism.

 

[Grobut]

Well, isn't that what he meant? Making it more fun?

No, that's a horribly stilted view of it.

Let's get something straight, realism and "fun" are not mutually exclusive things, by no means.
Realism and "arcade" are usually used as opposites, but both can be "fun" for different reasons, and infact, games thease days are usually incorporating more realism to add to their fun-factor (for instance, in most racing games thease days, you can damage your car, whereas that was rarer in the olden days of racing titles, and most shooters today have some kind of aiming mode and reloading, which again was allmost never used in the olden days, lots of titles, though they do not aim to be simulators, none the less end up incorporating elements of realism because it's more fun that way).


And in this example, RO2 movement versus ARMA2 movement, i call BS on calling RO2 the less realistic one, because quite frankly, i would define it as both more realistic and more fun at the same time, whereas ARMA's clunkyness is neither realistic nor fun, it's just poorly designed and poorly exicuted.

Don't get me wrong, it has many cool and realistic features, but the fact that most of them feel clunky and awkward to exicute and deal with is neither realistic nor fun, real living human beeings do not find it awkward and clunky to exicute basic human movement, we do it naturally and fluidly, without even thinking about it, this stuff should be easy to do, not clunky and awkward!


RO2 is on the right track here, both in terms of realism and fun, "realism" is not about pressing lots of buttons, it's about mimicking real life posibillities and limitations in a belivable and intuitive way, things that should be easy to do should be easy to do, things that should be hard to do should be hard to do, etc etc, and most importantly, things should just plain behave as you expect them to.
Realism is NOT making everything hard to do, just for the sake of making it hard, that's "fake difficulty", not "realism".

 

[Oldih]

You should try it, because most of people judge ArmA 2 after few minutes or hours of casual freeplay at random server.

That is part of the problem in general. As enjoyable as they can be when played with proper teams trying to get into the scene (so to speak) without any connections or anywhere to really look from is pretty alienating compared to some other games.

And in this example, RO2 movement versus ARMA2 movement, i call BS on calling RO2 the less realistic one, because quite frankly, i would define it as both more realistic and more fun at the same time, whereas ARMA's clunkyness is neither realistic nor fun, it's just poorly designed and poorly exicuted.

It really depends how you look at it, as on basic level RO2 certainly is more realistic than ArmA2 (and no, addons dont' count for the sake of this example right now), as ArmA2 basically has every small thing technically stiff, odd, wonky and even downright wrong while on practical scale -- presuming you can get past the problem(s) mentioned a moment ago -- ArmA2 is probably the most realistic overall experience there is on both smaller scale and larger scale. Even more so when if we're allowed to include 3rd party stuff ala ACE and such.

 

[Grobut]

It really depends how you look at it, as on basic level RO2 certainly is more realistic than ArmA2 (and no, addons dont' count for the sake of this example right now), as ArmA2 basically has every small thing technically stiff, odd, wonky and even downright wrong while on practical scale -- presuming you can get past the problem(s) mentioned a moment ago -- ArmA2 is probably the most realistic overall experience there is on both smaller scale and larger scale. Even more so when if we're allowed to include 3rd party stuff ala ACE and such.

Do keep in mind that i was only talking about the basic movement and weapons handling, not every other aspect of the two games (like the size of maps and weapon stats or anything like that, that's a different discussion alltogeather).

ARMA2 has tons of things going for it, and where it's realism is pretty much unrivaled, and i certainly would not call it "bad" or "arcady" or anything like that.
But when it comes to the basics of movement and weapons handling, it really falls short of it's full potential, and in ways that can neither be called realistic nor fun, it's just not well exicuted.


But sadly, a lot of people are mired in this false idea that "realism" and "fun" are mutually exclusive terms, and a lot of realism gamers are likewise mired in this wierd idea that "easy" and "realism" can never be used in the same sentance.. and that's just bull, realism most certainly can be more fun (ergo why even arcady titles try to incorporate more of it now), and what's realistic most certainly can be what's easy (picking up a pencil is not a hard laborious task in real life, but if ARMA2 let you pick up pencils, it would probably take atleast 3 different buttons to do it! ).

 

[LemoN]

whereas ARMA's clunkyness is neither realistic nor fun, it's just poorly designed and poorly exicuted.

I have to disagree. While ArmA has some parts where it does indeed feel clunky, in most situations the movement doesn't. In fact the movement gives you way more freedom than in RO, adding free-look, lowering your weapon, Track IR, etc. The problems start with things that require somewhat a bit more complex animation blending, like stepping over a wall. This isn't necessarily down to ArmA's control scheme but more down to lackluster/poor blending. While I thought the same as you when I started playing ArmA, I've grown used to it and think that most of the actions are actually easy to use and straight forward. Now, the command system is another thing, it's the reason why I never even touched the OA or BAF SP.

If you give me the choice of having the arma movement system or the RO movement system, I'd take ArmA's system any day, even with it's limitations. Especially as it doesn't allow hipshooting monkeys and jogging as your standard speed.

 

[Apos]

(...)

I agree with you that new RO looks good, animations are decent etc etc but why TWI added aerial recon plane (which works like delayed UAV), fancy HUD with minimap, unrealistic character progress elements like reduced recoil, reload speed, sway, entering sight, melee strength etc?
Recon plane should report enemy positions by voice, so commander should get: "enemy infantry sighted, strength one section, sector XY, over", not futuristic markers on map.
Character progress should effect only uniform and how does player look. Player earn experience with time playing game, so after a week he should know how to use specific weapon and operate it better with his mouse. Reducing recoil is lame trick to get more CoD/BF/MoH community crowd.
Same thing with mobile respawn system.

HoS has many many great features, but some of them (pointed above) sadly just ruin old Ostfront spirit and realistic gameplay. Here ArmA 2 has superiority over RO2.

 

[Yoshiro]

Some of you don't seem to understand the concept of relaxed realism vs normal mode yet. Relaxed realism is indeed designed to draw in players from other games, and let them understand the core systems behind RO are engaging and fun. Then you as a community can draw them into the non relaxed realism settings.

And no, just because a concept has been seen before in the likes of BF/CoD does not mean our implementation is like theirs. But we do abstract some concepts (such as artillery and the recon planes). Neither would fit into the game in a truly realistic fashion where you have to wait a few hours for artillery or a recon over the field.

 

[Grobut]

You won't hear me disagree with any of that Apos, and infact, i'm starting to get pretty concearned about all this leveling stuff we're hearing about, i really don't like what we're hearing there, not one bit, and i'm beginning to worry that we'll have to mod the hell out of RO2 to get it to play like RO..

I just hope it sounds worse than it is.

 

[LemoN]

Some of you don't seem to understand the concept of relaxed realism vs normal mode yet.

And no, just because a concept has been seen before in the likes of BF/CoD does not mean our implementation is like theirs. But we do abstract some concepts (such as artillery and the recon planes).

So normal mode will have the lvl system disabled?

 

[Rak]

Relaxed realism is indeed designed to draw in players from other games, and let them understand the core systems behind RO are engaging and fun. Then you as a community can draw them into the non relaxed realism settings.

What if nobody makes the jump and "relaxed-mode" becomes dominant? Has TWI considered this possibility? It might even affect the future of the series.

 

[Zetsumei]

I disagree because ArmA 2 gives you total freedom how your gameplay might look a like. You can have:
- small, 100x100m urban maps full of buildings, obstacles and crowded with players
- medium size maps, with buildings, open fields, woods etc
- huge, even 20km x 20km maps with cities, villages lakes, seas, etc

It's also great game for competitive PvP communities of all kinds because you can adjust all rules of server and gameplay. So you can play typical clan vs clan clanwars with different objectives (TDM, CTF or RO type gameplay with capturable objectives) aswell as campaign, casual operations and all other players type activities.
You should try it, because most of people judge ArmA 2 after few minutes or hours of casual freeplay at random server. No, ArmA 2 is teamplay game designed for communities. Also you can't judge ArmA 2 after playing it w/o ACE, ACRE and other great addons which redefine fun and realism.

I want to like ArmA I really do and I tried it multiple times but I just cannot get it to click on me. Requiring you to download addons and stuff to enjoy it is a step most consumers won't take

 

[Ender]

What if nobody makes the jump and "relaxed-mode" becomes dominant? Has TWI considered this possibility? It might even affect the future of the series.

What if not that many people get the game and the community shrinks so that there are only 24/7 Danzig maps and other every other week there is a populated sever that has a map rotation.. Oh wait. Think of all those players as potential converts. I would think it would be easier to get some one to try a realism sever if they already have the game then trying to pull them from some other game.

Seems like a lot of people are forgetting what is was like to first play RO. I remember getting my *** handed to me for the first couple of weeks. Relaxed realism would have been a good starting point to ease into the game and not scare or frustrate people for giving RO a chance.

Achievements will also help people get over the hump and want to continue to want to play. I have my doubts about them but they are a good carrot to get people to keep playing. Beside most of us will have them unlocked by the end of the first weekend.

 

[RAnDOOm]

Some of you don't seem to understand the concept of relaxed realism vs normal mode yet. Relaxed realism is indeed designed to draw in players from other games, and let them understand the core systems behind RO are engaging and fun. Then you as a community can draw them into the non relaxed realism settings.

And no, just because a concept has been seen before in the likes of BF/CoD does not mean our implementation is like theirs. But we do abstract some concepts (such as artillery and the recon planes). Neither would fit into the game in a truly realistic fashion where you have to wait a few hours for artillery or a recon over the field.

I think you guys are having the exact right approach on this subject.

Keep up the good work.

 

[LugNut]

While I thought the same as you when I started playing ArmA, I've grown used to it and think that most of the actions are actually easy to use and straight forward.

Same here. If you're not commanding ai, the interface, while not optimal, isn't that hard to get used to. The basic keys used for infantry aren't that much more complicated than most FPS.

I first tried ARMA2 when it came out, gave it a few weeks and bailed. Too hard, to buggy, too complex and soooo different from the smooth and fast COD world I was coming from. I couldn't get all the cool features and those gloriously big maps out of my head though, and once it was patched up, I came back and was hooked.

One reason most new players complain it's so clunky is the fact that the players move at realistic speeds and interact physically with the surrounding environment, there's not as much clipping as other fps, so you have to pay attention so you don't crash into things. Granted, animations aren't optimal, but like any game, the shortcomings are made up by the good stuff.

Big maps don't necessarily dictate how the game is played, I always hear that same complaint from people who check it out. "whaaaa! Maps too big, I spend all my time walking around!" There's no reason to spend at most more than a minute or two out of the action unless you choose to. On pretty much any coop or PvP mission I've played, you can choose to respawn on a squadmate, a mobile HQ, HALO in or use a teleport and quickly be back in the fight. Or, as a last resort, you can use transport and drive or fly. On missions with limited ways to respawn close to the action, there's almost always guys flying helo taxis. The key is to ask, which newbs don't, so they end up running around like idiots. It's never die/respawn/die like Call of Battle Flops, but that longer respawn time makes you try pretty hard not to stay alive.

Combat on big maps is almost always focused on small areas, a village or part of a city, so the fighting can vary from longer range as you approach to close quarter when you're in town. Unless you're an idiot, or your side is completely unorganized, you should always find it easy to join your teammates in the fight.

My biggest fear for the realism/relaxed realism thing for HOS is that it'll fracture the community. That's the biggest problem with ARMA IMO, an already small community split by mods and playing styles into teeny groups resulting in not enough populated servers.

 

[LemoN]

IMO the most epic things in ArmA are fights at night in a forest that pretty much spans across the whole map, like in Podagorsk.

Without GPS.

 

[Crni-Wuk]

...

Except when you use tanks. Then you can throw arma2 straight out of the window. They use such a simple "damage" and "penetration" system for the game that it could be almost straight out of some arcade game. OK. That is maybe a bit exaggerated. But you get the point - I mean even the arcade game World of Tanks feels better then Arma2.

Thing is that many of the vehicles simply lack a lot of the features which would make tanking a lot easier or more entertaining not to mention a level of complexity. Be it additional periscopes/vision slits for the driver or a better communication with team mates inside the tank. And considering the fact that most nations actually make a huge secret out of their "protection" for tanks I have my doubts Arma2 really nailed either the Abrahams or T90 tanks accurately.

 

[213]

This game will be no where near the hardcore Ro1.
I mean, it has a UAV.....Uh...."Areal recon plane" in it. So the good old fashion finding the enemy for yourself is not longer there, it has been replaced by a glowing red dot on your compass.
This will be the best call of dut......Uh....red orchestra eva!11

heh i appreciate the humor. and you do make a good point about the trend of "hand holding" mechanics in games these days.

the recon plane is probably a result of marketing decisions. afterall, can't sell a lot of copies unless you can tap into the huge numbers of kiddies looking for their cod fix. make this game "accessible" enough to trick them into buying it is a cool thing bro. i'm gonna turn that **** off in my server though.