A Killing Floor balance overhaul

[Evilsod]

*This is a long post*

We all have takes on how KF could be altered to make it more balanced. So heres my take on it. Some of it would take a bit more effort than others but then its in the best interest of the game imo. If this pricing scheme would be too much the new discount can be increased.

Global

Sell price reduced to 50% of buy value instead of the current 75%
This is to help prevent selling/buying as a way of avoiding the ammo price on certain weapons. It also pushes your cash harder and makes you think more carefully about randomly switching between perks.

Perks

All perks at all levels receive 33% (1/3) discount instead of the scaling 10-70%
Why? Its just too easy to get Tier 3 weapons when your high level and low levels are penalised enough as it is with other stats, they should at least have the same chance to buy weapons, just not be as skilled with them. Crossbow is added to the Sharpshooters discount list, the Machete and Axe to the Zerkers and the L.A.W. to the Demolitions. New costs wil be mentioned later.

Berserkers can use power attacks.
Well obviously they already could, the point is power attacks (aka secondary attacks) are not available to other perks. As the name suggests you need power and only the Berserker is strong enough for that as he's honed his melee skills. Mainly this is a way to reduce the potential for solo'ing of other perks (particularly Medic) and to stop random players grabbing a Katana to let them drop Scrakes easily. This will hopefully promote working together more... plus it'll start with some funny deaths and complaining till people adapt.

You spawn with <weapon> at level 3/4 and 5/6, the weapon is worn.
You've carried it with you for a long time, how else did you get to be such an expert with it? As such it is worn and worth a measily

 

[Temstar]

Scream destroys grenades from a grenade launcher in mid-air. After all it destroys every other type of explosive...

They already do, it's just that 40mm nades fly too fast to be intercepted most of the time.

 

[Sammers]

Demolition's buff already affects the LAW and gains damage(exp?) from using it. The reason it is marked as a Support weapon is because support has been granted an increased carry weight, so that he can afford to carry it around with a backup weapon.

And instead of changing the whole pricing and discount system, I feel it would be better to just allow servers to limit perk level. That way, discounts can be lowered to a desirable value and it'll stop level 6s bailing about in Beginner servers ruining the game for newer players.

Dunno if Fleshpound needs that much of a buff, but some kind of buff would be good I guess.

I'm also not for lowering the Medic Gun price. Since it weighs nothing, if it were to then cost nothing, everyone would be able to buy one, making healing teammates far far easier for everyone, instead of just the medic. It's not really intended to be expensive as a weapon, but rather as a tool. Before the MP7 was released, medics were hardly just wandering about with their syringes out non-stop. They were more than capable of selecting another weapon when not busy healing. Same goes for MP7.

Agreed that all the melees need, if not a direct buff, something to give them all some unique strength. Swing Speed, move speed, damage etc

Nothing against the rest of the stuff, just more decent suggestions I guess. Something's bound to be sorted soon.

 

[koneko]

Global

Sell price reduced to 50% of buy value instead of the current 75%
This is to help prevent selling/buying as a way of avoiding the ammo price on certain weapons. It also pushes your cash harder and makes you think more carefully about randomly switching between perks.

If you're going to decrease the discount and fix up the Crossbow/Hunting Shotgun issues anyways, then I don't really see this as necessary. I'm not sure if it would make things more interesting or just make things more of a pain in the *** for the sake of being a pain in the ***.

Perks

All perks at all levels receive 33% (1/3) discount instead of the scaling 10-70%
Why? Its just too easy to get Tier 3 weapons when your high level and low levels are penalised enough as it is with other stats, they should at least have the same chance to buy weapons, just not be as skilled with them. Crossbow is added to the Sharpshooters discount list, the Machete and Axe to the Zerkers and the L.A.W. to the Demolitions. New costs wil be mentioned later.

Yes.

Berserkers can use power attacks.
Well obviously they already could, the point is power attacks (aka secondary attacks) are not available to other perks. As the name suggests you need power and only the Berserker is strong enough for that as he's honed his melee skills. Mainly this is a way to reduce the potential for solo'ing of other perks (particularly Medic) and to stop random players grabbing a Katana to let them drop Scrakes easily. This will hopefully promote working together more... plus it'll start with some funny deaths and complaining till people adapt.

I'd actually prefer it was just made so only the berserker can swing a katana enough to stun a Skrake. I don't see a problem with other perks using it otherwise.

You spawn with <weapon> at level 3/4 and 5/6, the weapon is worn.
You've carried it with you for a long time, how else did you get to be such an expert with it? As such it is worn and worth a measily

 

[human_gs]

overall good suggestions, although they need further balancing.

It's almost irrelevant if the medic gun should be affordable by other classes since a medic in the team can buy one for everyone. I propose make the healing dart terribly ineffective or just remove it altogether for other perks.

About the FP life I think it should be the xbow that get's dramatically nerfed, not the ZEDs. After all, killing an fp without Xbow is not that easy (unless with pipes or EBR, weapons that should be altered as well)

I specially agree on perk discounts: levelling up just makes every cheap weapon obsolete, and since it doesn't take long to get to lvl4/5/6 you could say they are making 1/2 of the game weapons just useless.

And the law, since it's an armour piercing weapon rather than a grenade, should also have insane damage against single target (currently the FP has resistance against LAW!), but cost a lot more and have less ammo, turning it basically into a big ZED only weapon.

I don't use berserker but the way I see it chainsaw should be perfect for going through hordes of small ZEDs (currently the primary attack is crap) almost unaffected ( high price, lvl6 not spawning with it and maybe further speed decrease whilst using the primary attack should balance it) while the katana/axe/ new weapon should be better against single targets.

 

[Unit-05]

Machete - Weighs nothing (at the most 1), costs

 

[Evilsod]

They already do, it's just that 40mm nades fly too fast to be intercepted most of the time.

Meh, i've never seen it happen. Was mainly going for the FP change but thought i'd add it too. In that case i guess it needs to be made more consistant, especially if its still going to destroy LAW rockets.

Demolition's buff already affects the LAW and gains damage(exp?) from using it. The reason it is marked as a Support weapon is because support has been granted an increased carry weight, so that he can afford to carry it around with a backup weapon.

And instead of changing the whole pricing and discount system, I feel it would be better to just allow servers to limit perk level. That way, discounts can be lowered to a desirable value and it'll stop level 6s bailing about in Beginner servers ruining the game for newer players.

Dunno if Fleshpound needs that much of a buff, but some kind of buff would be good I guess.

I'm also not for lowering the Medic Gun price. Since it weighs nothing, if it were to then cost nothing, everyone would be able to buy one, making healing teammates far far easier for everyone, instead of just the medic. It's not really intended to be expensive as a weapon, but rather as a tool. Before the MP7 was released, medics were hardly just wandering about with their syringes out non-stop. They were more than capable of selecting another weapon when not busy healing. Same goes for MP7.

Agreed that all the melees need, if not a direct buff, something to give them all some unique strength. Swing Speed, move speed, damage etc

Nothing against the rest of the stuff, just more decent suggestions I guess. Something's bound to be sorted soon.

Noone has ever used the LAW outside of the Patriarch (with a reason). There should be something done to it really to make it a Demo's weapon, heavy or not. Its no different to the Crossbow and LAR/M14, you have a choice between the 2 sets.

As for the Medic gun, i was just throwing it out there, as you say a Medic can buy everyone it or people just go medic and get it themselves. The people who used it before still would, and those who didn't still won't.

The problem with the FP is, even if it takes 2 shots to kill it its still going to be ridiculously easy. The first shot triggers rage and more often than not, holding the aim perfectly still and firing again will take its head off at distance without even trying. So unless it takes 3 shots there wouldn't be much difference. After all you are supposed to use heavy weapons to take it down encouraging people to use the LAW, though more likely it'd just encourage people to use the grenade launchers more...

@koneko, i wasn't sure if the change to sell price was overkill or not, but really it'd only affect people who change perks several times per game. As for the 'worn' weapons i meant sell price is reduced, not the weapons power. At the moment the easiest thing to do is spawn as Sharpshooter w/ Crossbow, spam it because it tears clots to pieces easily, then sell it for an extra

 

[koneko]

True, the only problem I see with the reduction in sales price is that I don't really think people that change perks several times per game have any reason to be punished. The worn weapons change would pretty much fix the "start as berserker wave 1, sell chainsaw, change perk" shenanigans on its own, and that along with SS wave 1 and sell crossbow, etc. are the only things really "wrong" with changing perks and selling the previous perk weaponry.

 

[FPK_I_AM_CONAN]

About the 400 Pound single Pipebomb, I think that TWI designed the rather expensive double package on purpose there.
In my opinion, this is a calculated move, since many people tend to have 400 quid to spare, they could rather easily buy the thing and need just a single ammo crate to get a second pipe, making it easier to spam for non-demos.
(Keep in mind people complain about pipespam already)
My thought is, while you could lay a bomb of the current set and find an ammo crate just as easy, with a hefty price of 800 pounds to be paid at once, your gonna think at least a little longer.
You dont waste 800 pounds till your weapons and even armour are maxed out I guess, but 400... these you could make in a round or so, meaning you won't have to postpone your Tier3 weapon indefinately.

Just a thought. The other suggestions seem rather reasonable, if a little radical concerning the overhaul of the discount and pricing system. But who's to say thats a bad thing

 

[Sammers]

Noone has ever used the LAW outside of the Patriarch (with a reason). There should be something done to it really to make it a Demo's weapon, heavy or not. Its no different to the Crossbow and LAR/M14, you have a choice between the 2 sets.

While this is true, you have to bear in mind a balance patch is coming and the M14 and Crossbow have been top of the shoutboard for nerfing. The LAW did get a buff I believe, though not a terribly good one I'll admit. The radius of damage is 9001 times bigger than it used to be, but the damage is still pretty meh. It's an impressive crowdstopped if you have the proper vantage point though. Was never designed to be a Fleshpound stopper.

At the moment the easiest thing to do is spawn as Sharpshooter w/ Crossbow, spam it because it tears clots to pieces easily, then sell it for an extra

 

[Surkov]

I rather like those ideas, especially perk specific functions on weapons, but as far as cash issues go just remember that you get less cash for killing zeds on harder difficulties.

 

[Undedd Jester]

When it comes to perks, personally I value this as the most important change

[url]http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?p=585176#post585176[/URL]

Sell prices at 50%, perks get 33% as standard, worn weapons: These seem to be geared towards solving the same issue. I might agree using one of them is fair, but using all 3 will make suicidal money really really harsh. Admittedly it should be hard, but the 3 together will just make money management next to impossible. For the average wave you get maybe

 

[Evilsod]

While this is true, you have to bear in mind a balance patch is coming and the M14 and Crossbow have been top of the shoutboard for nerfing. The LAW did get a buff I believe, though not a terribly good one I'll admit. The radius of damage is 9001 times bigger than it used to be, but the damage is still pretty meh. It's an impressive crowdstopped if you have the proper vantage point though. Was never designed to be a Fleshpound stopper.

Well true, but then it depends how TWI handle it. The M14 needs its ammo capacity severely limited. Even 140 (said below) is too much when you compare it to the LAR at 80 and Handcannon at 96 and with its weight you can take the M14, LAR/DHC and still have room for a 9mm and maybe a Katana or MP7M.
The original intention for the LAW is lost. Crowd control is in the hands of the grenade launchers and frankly so is taking out the big enemies with the MGL unleashing 6 shots at 350x50% (+200) a piece.

And I also feel the need to say that as bad as this is, it's far better than what happened before the Level Up patch. Before then, weapons could be sold for more(IE Buy discount gun, switch class, sell discount gun for non-discount sell price) and Sharpshooter spawned with twin handcannons. That left them room to pick up other weps for selling, whilst raking in an impressive

 

[Sammers]

The original intention for the LAW is lost. Crowd control is in the hands of the grenade launchers and frankly so is taking out the big enemies with the MGL unleashing 6 shots at 350x50% (+200) a piece.

It's way better than the grenade launchers if you have the vantage, but you're right that the launchers are far more maneuverable and more favourable.

But with 70% discount it is still ridiculously easy to have a tier 3 weapon by the start of wave 2. Realistically balance should be trying to get them available around wave 4-5.

I like to think that we earned the right to get them earlier, by levelling our perks for God knows how long. And we're only talking wave one or two on any difficulty lower than Hard. An exceedingly good player can get them wave 2 on suicidal, but it's at the price of having poor teammates normally and that doesn't work out too well. Some Tier 3s could afford to get a bit more expensive though, if need be. M14(obviously) and the SCAR being the ones I had in mind. AA12 is over a grand on level 6 which is a fair amount of money in Suicidal.

 

[Evilsod]

I like to think that we earned the right to get them earlier, by levelling our perks for God knows how long. And we're only talking wave one or two on any difficulty lower than Hard. An exceedingly good player can get them wave 2 on suicidal, but it's at the price of having poor teammates normally and that doesn't work out too well. Some Tier 3s could afford to get a bit more expensive though, if need be. M14(obviously) and the SCAR being the ones I had in mind. AA12 is over a grand on level 6 which is a fair amount of money in Suicidal.

Surely what we earned is to be better with the weapons? Skill really has nothing to do with getting it by wave 2, its really just being in the right place to get all the kills. Even a noob can rack up 1/3 of the available kills so long as he gets 40 free shots with the Xbow on the first wave. I never understood the reason for the AA12s

 

[Sammers]

I never understood the reason for the AA12s

 

[Undedd Jester]

Why? Sell price would have barely any effect if you didn't change perks 3 times a game. Worn weapons prevents you making money (at least too much) from things you spawn with and sweep up from the area. Perk discount *needs* changing, even if you disagree with 33% the concept remains. A scaling 10-70 is bad for the game and seriously penalises lower ranks compared with how easy it is for a high level to get a tier 3. Hell the difference between 5 and 6 alone is huge.

I guess you raise a good point. After all my own reservations to how the Firebug is massively penalised at the start of the game as his basic weapon costs him a whopping

 

[Evilsod]

Sorry but your making no sense. The point is not only to avoid screwing over new players who have to get up to 3 or 4 times the money to buy the same weapon, but to make Suicidal more challenging. How would it make Suicidal more accessible? After all what was stopping you buying a lower level a gun (or in the case of SS, using the Crossbow)?

The reduction in bounty was clearly done to stretch money, as was the reduction in starting cash. Currently? That has failed miserably. Spawning with a weapon then selling it for extra cash, the Crossbow is worth

 

[Undedd Jester]

Sorry but your making no sense. The point is not only to avoid screwing over new players who have to get up to 3 or 4 times the money to buy the same weapon, but to make Suicidal more challenging. How would it make Suicidal more accessible? After all what was stopping you buying a lower level a gun (or in the case of SS, using the Crossbow)?

The reduction in bounty was clearly done to stretch money, as was the reduction in starting cash. Currently? That has failed miserably. Spawning with a weapon then selling it for extra cash, the Crossbow is worth

 

[Evilsod]

You're forgetting that new players are still learning the game. I think you're overestimating how much of an effect it'll have on lower difficulties. Sure its equivilent to a lvl2(ish) discount but thats hardly gonna effect things much.

Suicidal should be inaccessible. There is this bizarre belief that everyone should be capable of playing the hardest difficulty. Its not like Hard couldn't provide a challenge in this game when compared with say, L4D, where the jump between Advanced and Expert is ridiculous with no middle ground. Think back to the days before Level Up, i barely went on Suicidal, and even now that it has become EZ mode thanks to Tier 3 unbalance, i know people who still haven't played on it.

As for not levelling up... seriously? Isn't the arguement that you shouldn't be *trying* to level up and that you should get it as you play normally? I've always opposed the games ridiculous levelling system and that seems to be the most common retort.

I suggested changes to buy price too. Not to mention its possible to grab stuff lying around to make cash too. Since its clear Xbow needs a discount and a price increase others should be altered too, especially the Hunting Shotgun, another weapon with ridiculously overpriced ammo that renders selling-buying the best choice.

Maybe 33% is too much, but that doesn't change the fact it should be changed. 50% is too high,