150hp for the Demo?

[Humam2104]

It makes sense, because the demo has alot of self-damage. It's a perk that's supposed to deal with large zeds (and maybe even smaller ones) but unlike the firebug which takes no damage (LVL 25), the demo does!
Also, the support gets that 150hp and he just has grenades that can deal self damage unlike the whole demo's arsenal

 

[Kauzmiq]

I do find myself hurting myself at times when I shoot things at close-range with certain perk weapons as demo, but this can be avoidable by shooting at a distant, but I do understand that at times we have no choice but to shoot at close-range hurting ourselves in the process.

An alternative could be to just improve/increase the Explosive Resist. I mean additional health would be nice but I would prefer if we earned it, perhaps something for every perk, where each prestige rank provides permanant 10 HP, create up to 10 prestige rank and cap it at 100 HP per perk. Doesnt have to be exactly this, whatever the developers considers "balanced" and can provide better fun gameplay for us.

 

[OnionBubs]

But the Demo's self-damage is to punish the player for screwing up in either mechanical play or positioning: the idea is that you and/or your teammates kill everything before it reaches you, because Demo being situationally weakat close-range is part of the balancing factor between perks, since it doesn't have to aim (much) and still has strong damage output. It's not as though he doesn't have stupid self-defense weapons, either; the Kaboomstick can be paired with the RPG or S6 and is their best method of getting lots of trash off them in one swoop.

Also, the support gets that 150hp and he just has grenades that can deal self damage unlike the whole demo's arsenal

That comparison is so apples-to-oranges and kinda wrong that I'm not even sure where to start.

For starters, the Demo has multiple self-defense weapons on-perk that don't inflict self-damage: the M16's bullets (even if they suck), the HX25, the Kaboomstick, and (by technicality) the Seeker 6. The tradeoff for these is lack of being able to use dud rockets at close range to quickly kill large Zeds, which is one of the Demo's primary tactics. Finally, even if you're taking the RPG + C4 (the best Demo combo at fulfilling their role), you can take a single .500 or Desert Eagle to help dispose of trash and to set up takedowns. It's not much, but again, that's the balancing factor for being able to delete the biggest threats in the enemy roster.

The support's grenades are completely different from Demo's entire arsenal: they're only really useful in one situation, and that's killing clouds of Crawlers or maybe Stalkers so you can thin the herd approaching you in the event that your shotgun might not cut it alone once the horde rushes you at your ideal range (up close).

The Support only gets 150 HP if they take Fortitude, widely considered in high-level play to be a bad skill because it sacrifices damage (Support's main asset) for *some* extra survivability. In doing so, you give up the Support's ability to quickly destroy Scrakes and Fleshpounds at close range. Support is a high-risk high-reward class; if you play it well, things die. If you mess up, you're probably dead before you can blink because he mostly operates best in very close range--the exact range where everything else can hit him.

The explosive damage should only really be an issue in HoE and even then you still get a lot of leeway to work with, because you shouldn't be firing weapons that explode in the range where you take damage anyway.

 

[Humam2104]

But the Demo's self-damage is to punish the player for screwing up in either mechanical play or positioning: the idea is that you and/or your teammates kill everything before it reaches you, because Demo being situationally weakat close-range is part of the balancing factor between perks, since it doesn't have to aim (much) and still has strong damage output. It's not as though he doesn't have stupid self-defense weapons, either; the Kaboomstick can be paired with the RPG or S6 and is their best method of getting lots of trash off them in one swoop.


That comparison is so apples-to-oranges and kinda wrong that I'm not even sure where to start.

For starters, the Demo has multiple self-defense weapons on-perk that don't inflict self-damage: the M16's bullets (even if they suck), the HX25, the Kaboomstick, and (by technicality) the Seeker 6. The tradeoff for these is lack of being able to use dud rockets at close range to quickly kill large Zeds, which is one of the Demo's primary tactics. Finally, even if you're taking the RPG + C4 (the best Demo combo at fulfilling their role), you can take a single .500 or Desert Eagle to help dispose of trash and to set up takedowns. It's not much, but again, that's the balancing factor for being able to delete the biggest threats in the enemy roster.

The support's grenades are completely different from Demo's entire arsenal: they're only really useful in one situation, and that's killing clouds of Crawlers or maybe Stalkers so you can thin the herd approaching you in the event that your shotgun might not cut it alone once the horde rushes you at your ideal range (up close).

The Support only gets 150 HP if they take Fortitude, widely considered in high-level play to be a bad skill because it sacrifices damage (Support's main asset) for *some* extra survivability. In doing so, you give up the Support's ability to quickly destroy Scrakes and Fleshpounds at close range. Support is a high-risk high-reward class; if you play it well, things die. If you mess up, you're probably dead before you can blink because he mostly operates best in very close range--the exact range where everything else can hit him.

The explosive damage should only really be an issue in HoE and even then you still get a lot of leeway to work with, because you shouldn't be firing weapons that explode in the range where you take damage anyway.

I'm really tired of seeing some PRO players in this forums rejecting all kinds of ideas from average and above average players and keep requesting more difficulty in the game.. If you're that good in the game and have a team that you always play with that doesn't the game should be getting harder and harder each time!
I mostly play with pubs and most games really suck on suicidal+ difficulties. I think people should have more openness to ideas. but TWI doesn't give a **** anyways so maybe I shouldn't bother.

 

[OnionBubs]

I'm really tired of seeing some PRO players in this forums rejecting all kinds of ideas from average and above average players and keep requesting more difficulty in the game.. If you're that good in the game and have a team that you always play with that doesn't the game should be getting harder and harder each time!
I mostly play with pubs and most games really suck on suicidal+ difficulties. I think people should have more openness to ideas. but TWI doesn't give a **** anyways so maybe I shouldn't bother.

OK, so I'll say a few things here:
I don't even consider myself pro yet; my win rate for HoE in pubs probably isn't that great? I haven't exactly kept track myself. I'd definitely consider myself above average, sure, but not super pro. (I will say that if I had a nickel for every game I ultimately lost as a Commando on Last Man Standing because of a lot of angry thicc bois, I might be able to consider early retirement.)

But much of that is because I do play this game for the challenge, because TWI made a game that has a shocking amount of nuance and depth at its core, despite the insistence of the KF1 purists. The differing perk interactions and various mechanics allow for an insane skill gap for those willing to work at it vs. those who just want to play with their favorite toys and call it a day.

And currently, Hell on Earth can be very difficult if not everyone is playing up to snuff. Which it should be, because it's the game's ultimate "harder than hard" difficulty. Not everyone is going to be able to finish it, and that should be by design. The solution to not being able to win should be to improve one's skills and knowledge, not buffing all the classes until literally anyone can finish it. (That's what Solo mode is for anyway.)

Now, on that note, I consider myself open to hearing suggestions. It's just that, frankly, a lot of suggestions are not good, and frequently come from a place of not understanding the game's mechanics, ins-and-outs, or just plain wanting their favorite stuff buffed without regard to how that affects a game's current standing. (See "Sturgeon's Law" for more details.)

Same thing goes for the myriad weapon suggestions. 99.9% of them are "hey it would be cool if..." or it's just "I want my favorite obscure weapon in the game and here's why," regardless of whether or not the weapon even belongs in the game, or why making it crossperk with (insert complete opposite class here) is a bad idea, or why you shouldn't make it overpowered because then it creates issues with balancing, etc. (See also: anything involving "but it would be more variety" or "it would mix things up" as a reason for adding a weapon.)

There aren't a whole lot of "pro" players on this board, frankly speaking. Most of them stay on the Steam Discussions or the subreddit, and even then you don't see too many of them because a lot of them already left the game several years ago after they got frustrated with TWI's many questionable decisions on adding stuff into the game that didn't have any business being added in, or consideration on why some of the ideas added in weren't good ones. And I don't see a whole lot of thread responders coming from a point of view on game balance.

So if I can put in some counterpoints from a balancing perspective on certain threads, then I'm happy to do so. I don't barge into threads with the intent of being an asshole on the Internet (and sometimes I even manage to not be one, ha ha) or with the intent of being the "no fun allowed" guy. I do find this game very fun at its core, it's just that my perspective of "fun" for this game is getting good rather than inundating the already very bloated perks with more weapons and buffs.

 

[Arcames]

I'm really tired of seeing some PRO players in this forums rejecting all kinds of ideas from average and above average players and keep requesting more difficulty in the game.. If you're that good in the game and have a team that you always play with that doesn't the game should be getting harder and harder each time!
I mostly play with pubs and most games really suck on suicidal+ difficulties. I think people should have more openness to ideas. but TWI doesn't give a **** anyways so maybe I shouldn't bother.

The forums are full of threads and posts were you continuously tell the devs to buff perks, weapons, skills etc. The only intention I've been able to gather so far is "make the game easier for me". The difficulty of KF2 has steadily decreased since EA (with the exception of RNG zed spawns that are notoriously annoying on HoE).

The average casual does not need additional buffs, difficulties such as Normal and Hard exist for this purpose. OnionBubs provided good points in the posts above so I won't go over those again.

 

[Humam2104]

The forums are full of threads and posts were you continuously tell the devs to buff perks, weapons, skills etc

That's because the game is well-unbalanced in that matter (zerk, medic, GS etc) who even got more buffed recently to balance out their right and left skills for whatever reason, compared to the rest of the perks these are OP. Plus, the devs said they're gonna balance some perks, so I'm not the only one complaining about that. Not to mention the fact that the game is not well-optimized for a low number of players (2-4) players.

Moreover, I've got some questions to ask:

Why did they introduce the HRG Kaboomstick? Because the demo has a high self-damage and they wanted to balance that.
Why did they introduce the HRG Nailgun? Because SWAT was generally weak around FPs.
Why did they introduce the Frost Fang? Because Survivalist had to choose between having a melee weapon (run quicker) or grab a firearm so they gave him both.
Why did they introduce the HRG Beluga Beat? Because the sharpshooter had some troubles dealing with trash.

example:
I do agree with most of these points but why not buff the perk itself? It wouldn't hurt a demo to have more hp, instead of getting damage for every throw of a weapon he's going to use. Let's look at the firebug who perfectly does that. And yes he can deal with FPs with his Helios Rifle and Husk Cannon. Firebug has 100 hp with no self-damage while Demo has 100 hp with self-damage. that's not balanced!

Suggestions:
* SWAT regenerative armor
* More demo hp
* Higher movement speed for survivalist
* Higher Magazines for Sharpshooter pistols (maybe?)

The difficulty of KF2 has steadily decreased since EA

I agree, now they're even introducing mass killing weapons that don't really balance things out.

TLDR:
I know that you can win with your skill but I'm talking about the core game design. Most of the perks that got buffed recently didn't really need these buffs (GS steady aim buffs, Zerk's 200 hp, medic's zed time skill, Demo's gravity Imploder, and the upcoming gun for firebug after the HRG scorcher)
These buffs would have made much improvement to the weaker perks.

 

[Humam2104]

One more thing to add:

 

[OnionBubs]

That's because the game is well-unbalanced in that matter (zerk, medic, GS etc) who even got more buffed recently to balance out their right and left skills for whatever reason, compared to the rest of the perks these are OP...

If I understand what you're getting at, then yes, they technically did get buffed with the skill updates...but not really.

The one that's notable is Zerk, because it didn't really need Dreadnaught to be given another +25 HP. I'll grant you that. I think most players still wouldn't take it over Skirmisher outside of the boss wave, but that's a whole other thread.

But the Medic and GS skill buffs weren't really buffs, because they were adjusting values of options that won't be used anyway because they're trash skill picks. "Steady" being given a very, very minor numbers buff changes absolutely nothing and it doesn't make Steady even viable compared to Quick Draw. Medic's Resistance being buffed does nothing to change the fact that Medic should be buffing other players all of the time anyway, making it ancillary.

TLDR:
I know that you can win with your skill but I'm talking about the core game design. Most of the perks that got buffed recently didn't really need these buffs (GS steady aim buffs, Zerk's 200 hp, medic's zed time skill, Demo's gravity Imploder, and the upcoming gun for firebug after the HRG scorcher)
These buffs would have made much improvement to the weaker perks.

So here's the thing:
Most of these really aren't buffs, they're new toys to play with but not anything good for HoE. The Gravity Imploder is just a new way to irritate the precision perks on your team, and I'm certain the new Firebug gun still won't be as good as the Helios Rifle.

One more thing to add: <snip>

Leaving aside the very small numbers (this would be a better representation of the whole player base if you also included Steam Discussions and the subreddit), I do concur that perk balancing would be a good thing.

But that shouldn't entail giving the other perks more things, as that leads to even more power creep than the game already struggles with; it should entail nerfing the base kits of many perks and clipping some of the game's busted weapons.

And on that note:

• Reducde Berserker's survivability and/or his speed and make him a high-risk high-reward perk again that forces you to learn combos in order to quickly kill things or die trying, rather than a class that used by people clearly out of their depth to survive Hell on Earth where they would crumple on other perks (as intended).
• Maybe cut Gunslinger's base speed by a bit so it can't completely kite circles around everything, but leave enough of a speed boost that it can still deal with heavies through Skullcracker and such. (I really don't have a beef with Slinger other than the upgraded Deagles, so this would be to placate the screaming of others.)
• Nerf or delete Commando's FAL; it should never have existed on that class. Unless there's a way to knock its damage down to the equivalent of the other assault rifles, it'll never be a fair weapon since it can delete HVTs and the only thing keeping you from using it is the honor system.
• Remove the Hemoclobber's ability to self-heal. It's a crutch weapon that has only made the game worse by flooding servers with Zerks and melee Survivalists that can't play without it.
• Nerf the Medic's speed and/or tankiness. It currently has too much of both and suffers from the same issue Zerk does: being abused as a class that lets bad players survive Hell on Earth rather than actually use it as a team support and healing class.
• Remove the Healthrower's ability to damage enemies. It lets Medics play like a discount Firebug and that's not healthy for the game.
• Please stop giving Demolitionist silly meme weapons, because none of them are as good as the RPG when it comes to actually doing its job.

Just doing the above would go a long way towards bringing some of the classes in line with the others.

 

[Humam2104]

Well, it's proven that buffs are always better than nerfs in games. Plus, this game has a widespread of players who can't play with a team because of how difficult the game can be in Coop. I'm fond of the idea that each perk should have equal or almost-equal benefits to other perks. For me, I don't want to play as a medic or a zerk if I want to carry a game Or even go solo! Or wait for a medic that never heals me and die.. it's just silly. So buffs are better to make you independent