Why Drew Barrymore is the problem in KF's expansions

[Galslacht]

What I mean is, looking at what contributes to gameplay variety in an FPS like this is:

1. Kinds of enemies.
2. Kinds of weapons.
3. Kinds of environments.
(There are many more criteria of course, but these are three main ones, and pertinent to the conversation)

Discouraging multiperk loadouts as severely as you suggest reduces the second variety criteria, as it would make such "superchar" gameplay situations more rare. You would be using your same perk weapons 90% of the time, if not more. Yes you could simply switch perks, but then you'd just be using that perk's weapons.

Put in a real-world context, one of my favorite weapon combos personally is Berserker Katana+M79 for mid-wave roaming/support. But if you discourage cross-pollination, that unique "flavor" of gameplay is shut off to me. Perhaps this is a plus in your opinion, but I respectfully disagree.



I understand where you're coming from. These days KF seems like a straight action game instead of "survival horror", particularly on lower difficulties. However, I also think KF makes a damn good action game, and I like to go on Normal and just roll Zeds after coming home from work or whatnot. But there are of course also times when I want a "serious" game, that feels like a feat to accomplish. So I think that, again, variety should be preserved.

Make both parties happy by further differentiating the difficulty levels. I think many here feel that, in particular, Normal and Hard difficulties are too close together. I agree. Leaving Normal alone, I would take Hard mode a little further. Wiki says that Hard mode Zed Damage, Health, and Speed are at 125/135/115% respectively, with Normal being all 100% and Suicidal being 175/175/130%.

I would ramp Hard mode up to 155% Dmg, 135% Health, and 125% Speed. This, along with the increased numbers, creates a game experience where Zeds are just about as easy to pop now as before, but there are more of them, you have a smaller window to shoot them before they get to you, and most importantly there is a greatly increased penalty for letting them break through. This punishes poor teamwork and communication (like Suicidal), while being a little more forgiving of, say, a mistimed reload. On the other hand, it rewards good teamwork and concentrated firepower with the visceral pleasure of demolishing Zed ranks (like Normal, except with more numbers for even greater gore-fests!). Thus, it becomes the true in-betweener mode it should be instead of the Normal+ mode it is now.


As for Suicidal, I would ramp it up too, since most veterans can handle it by now without too many nail-biters. I do not think increasing health is the answer, as it's frustrating to know you can't possibly put out the DPS to, say, kill a FP before it rages and kills you as the last one left. Put another way, simply making Zeds more of a HP-wall does not encourage suspense so much as frustration.

I think the best part of Suicidal is:

1. Scarcity of money.
2. Increased Zed speed.

These combined with the amount of damage Zeds do are what give Suicidal it's intensity. The first because it creates a feeling of general dread ("Am I going to have enough dosh to buy X weapon?", "What if I die and don't drop it?", etc). The second creates acute panic in pressure situations (You can't outrun the Zeds nearly as easily anymore, you have a smaller window to shoot them.), forcing you to turn and fight (Hopefully desperately).

These two are what should be greatly increased in the new Suicidal. The Zeds should be even faster, and money even more scarce. Like I said in the other post, I'm more worried about reducing money at the normal pub level, I'm not as worried for Suicidal players.

Keep in mind though that these suggestions are made without any knowledge of future Xbow nerfs. I think much of the game balance hinges on this one weapon, and I also have a hunch it will receive further changes very soon....



Thank you for engaging in constructive debate, instead of simply flaming me. Which I expected, until I remembered that this wasn't SPUF forums.

Good post.
I dont really know how many testing it will take if you lower the money gainings and/of speed up the zeds. It seems the most plausible measures at short notice.

Also, I wanted to say that my fingers are crossed for any Xbow nerfs which you mentioned earlier. The weapon dumbs down the scrake and FP too much, they get hardly killed by the demo-class so to say.

Blimey, this post is ontopic!

 

[Evilsod]

Also, I wanted to say that my fingers are crossed for any Xbow nerfs which you mentioned earlier. The weapon dumbs down the scrake and FP too much, they get hardly killed by the demo-class so to say.

Blimey, this post is ontopic!

Crossbow nerfs are likely to happen since they've been called for a long time. Though the general agreement is that Scrakes will still be a 1 shot kill for SS and a 2 shot for non SS, though the latter won't be across all difficulties/players. FPs will become a 2 shot which is still laughably trivial to a SS but we'll see.

 

[Merin Redplate]

It would be nice to actually be frightened to see a Fleshpound...

 

[Galslacht]

Crossbow nerfs are likely to happen since they've been called for a long time. Though the general agreement is that Scrakes will still be a 1 shot kill for SS and a 2 shot for non SS, though the latter won't be across all difficulties/players. FPs will become a 2 shot which is still laughably trivial to a SS but we'll see.

Oh, any nerf is welcome. I'm looking forward to it.

I always pity the Scrake and FP on the average server, where 2-3 Sharpshooters are spamming their M14's and Xbows. The bloat still walks abit and forms a blockade when beheaded, the scrake and FP form a spontanious meaty carpet versus the SS.

I was baffled when I met the first post-patch SS that had no ammo left for his M14. I could not believe TWI finally understood some of the

 

[nutterbutter]

Also cross-perk bonuses do not even exist yet so you were essentially asking for a new system that changes something not really crucial to balance right now.

I explained that poorly. To make things quicker to type, I just said Sharpie bonus up to perk 3. I should have said give all perks this bonus with the 9mm.

30 headshots with 9mm:

+10% damage with 9mm
-25% recoil with 9mm
+10% headshot damage with 9mm


100 headshots with 9mm

+15% damage with 9mm
-50% recoil with 9mm
+20% headshot damage with 9mm


700 headshots with 9mm

+20% damage with 9mm
-75% recoil with 9mm
+30% headshot damage with 9mm


There would be a few benefits to this.
1) This would give a reason for the other perks to use a 9mm.
2) This would also give the other perks a viable weapon if they don't have a perked weapon at spawn
3) This would give other perks a viable weapon when their perked weapons run out of ammo
4) This would promote headshots

Right now, everyone is forced to carry a 9mm, but only one perk really can use it as a decent weapon.

There is not really a ''surival'' aspect anymore.

Brevity is the soul of wit.

Discouraging multiperk loadouts as severely as you suggest reduces the second variety criteria, as it would make such "superchar" gameplay situations more rare.

I disagree with that. What the game allows now is everyone to carry the best weapons of every perk at the same time. Katana, m79, + a fully perked big weapon (except for xbow. I just know that if I don't specifically mention this someone is going to reply 'oooooh, but not the xbow'.) This means every perk gets unlimited ammo, an AoE weapon, and a fully perked weapon for everything else. Adding a single weapon weight to an unperked weapon throws that off.

Think of it as bonuses the player can choose.

There are two types of bonuses in the game; perk proper & perked weapon.

Just about every is perfectly happy to eschew the perked weapon bonus in order to use the perk's proper bonuses instead. And that is the problem.

You would be using your same perk weapons 90% of the time, if not more. Yes you could simply switch perks, but then you'd just be using that perk's weapons.

Yes, instead of everyone on the team being a melee/demo/(sharpie/commando/support) mix people would actually have to function as a team. Want AoE on the team? Someone has to go demo. Want to carry a katana? Sure, but you can't carry multiple big perked weapons as well. What do you think would happen if there was a small flamer that weighed 4? Damn right people would carry it.

People may not directly understand it, but the medic's & berserker's speed actually mean "higher damage." Medic's rapidly healing ability really means "higher damage." That is why people will pick a medic+unperked weapons over perk+perked weapons. Higher damage and great survivability.

Right now, there is no reason not to cherry pick the best weapons with the best perk. Everyone is their own stand-alone super-soldier who can easily handle specimens far away, up close, midrange, and when their ammo runs out.

There is no reason for teamwork because there is no reason for a team. Everyone can handle every situation themselves. Everyone is an island. Everyone has an m79. Everyone has a katana. Everyone has a big perked weapon to shoot the scrake or FP rushing.

I don't mean to sound like the "grizzled old guy who longs for the old ways" but I remember when an FP would make people scream for a melee char. That was teamwork. I remember when only the medic could heal people. That was teamwork. I remember when playing suicidal meant two melee crouching at the sides of a door, two medics continually healing them, and a couple of guys in the back shooting through the door. For 10 waves.

Every player is an island now and specific perks really aren't a requirement.

Put in a real-world context, one of my favorite weapon combos personally is Berserker Katana+M79 for mid-wave roaming/support. But if you discourage cross-pollination, that unique "flavor" of gameplay is shut off to me. Perhaps this is a plus in your opinion, but I respectfully disagree.

That combo wouldn't be shut off to you. That combo is still available. What you couldn't do is purchase a large perked weapon as well.

To be fair, that's really more the veterans' fault than the developers'. Not to say that there aren't things that they can do to make the game harder, but let's be honest here; one week after said changes and the veterans would be back to complaining that the game is still too easy.

There is truth there. Just like someone gets used to the new fast computer in a week, players will adapt. This is a big reason why I think there really needs to be at least one, if not two, more long range specimens. Specimens, except for the husk, are too easily managed.

Not to say that I'm opposed to the idea of making the game harder, I'm just saying that veteran players need to realize that the game is only easy for them, meanwhile the rest of the player-base is perfectly content with the difficulty as-is.

Sure they are, but eventually those "rest of the player-base" will become veteran players as well.

 

[Evilsod]

Why is there any need to give low level perks bonus' to the 9mm? Especially to then take them away when they reach lvl5 and spawn with a weapon?

The 9mm is never weak if you take the time to aim and if you don't do that you deserve to cause minimal damage with it. It can easily mop up the first wave if you don't do something stupid and get yourself overwhelmed even when unperked. Its not as if 1 shot doesn't decap most things even if it doesn't instakill it. If people don't use it thats there own problem.

And since when did the 9mm have recoil ><

Edit: Correction you actually said lvl4 is when it gets removed. So they still don't have a weapon and you suddenly remove there 9mm bonus'?

 

[nutterbutter]

Why is there any need to give low level perks bonus' to the 9mm? Especially to then take them away when they reach lvl5 and spawn with a weapon?

Who said to take the perk away? The perk (God, I hate that TWI calls a class a 'perk.' A class is a class. A perk is a perk.) matches the sharpshooters perk up to level 3 for the 9mm only.

The 9mm is never weak if you take the time to aim and if you don't do that you deserve to cause minimal damage with it. It can easily mop up the first wave if you don't do something stupid and get yourself overwhelmed even when unperked. Its not as if 1 shot doesn't decap most things even if it doesn't instakill it. If people don't use it thats there own problem.

But there are waves after the first wave. And giving a small perk bonus to every other perk other than sharpie to a weapon they have to carry will help other perks (again, a perk is not a class) if they spawn without a perked weapon and if they run out of ammo for their perked weapons.

And since when did the 9mm have recoil ><

Just copying the sharpie perk for the 9mm up to level 3.

Edit: Correction you actually said lvl4 is when it gets removed. So they still don't have a weapon and you suddenly remove there 9mm bonus'?

The perk isn't removed. It only goes up to the equivalent of sharpie lvl 3.

 

[Salad Snake]

Why is there any need to give low level perks bonus' to the 9mm? Especially to then take them away when they reach lvl5 and spawn with a weapon?

The 9mm is never weak if you take the time to aim and if you don't do that you deserve to cause minimal damage with it. It can easily mop up the first wave if you don't do something stupid and get yourself overwhelmed even when unperked. Its not as if 1 shot doesn't decap most things even if it doesn't instakill it. If people don't use it thats there own problem.

And since when did the 9mm have recoil ><

Edit: Correction you actually said lvl4 is when it gets removed. So they still don't have a weapon and you suddenly remove there 9mm bonus'?

I think what he means is:

A player who is level 1 Sharpie gets Level 1 Sharpie 9mm for every perk

A player who is level 2 Sharpie gets Level 2 Sharpie 9mm for every perk

A player who is level 3 Sharpie gets Level 3 Sharpie 9mm for every perk

A player who is level 4 Sharpie gets Level 3 Sharpie 9mm for every perk (except Sharpie who gets a level 4 Sharpie 9mm)

A player who is level 5 Sharpie gets Level 3 Sharpie 9mm for every perk (except Sharpie who gets a level 5 Sharpie 9mm)

A player who is level 6 Sharpie gets Level 3 Sharpie 9mm for every perk (except Sharpie who gets a level 6 Sharpie 9mm)



I'm not sure about this idea....mainly because it makes leveling Sharpshooter more important then leveling other perks, since it has a multi-perk benefit. Call me bias against Snipers, but I'd rather Medic or Commando become the fulcrum perk then the tacti-cool Sharpshooter.

 

[WhiteTigerShiro]

There is truth there. Just like someone gets used to the new fast computer in a week, players will adapt. This is a big reason why I think there really needs to be at least one, if not two, more long range specimens. Specimens, except for the husk, are too easily managed.

Easily managed by you or me, sure. But remember, we're the minority.

Sure they are, but eventually those "rest of the player-base" will become veteran players as well.

I wouldn't bet as much. While some less-skilled players will eventually move-on to where he considers Suicidal to be easy, for the most part they tend to remain in the bracket where they consider even Normal mode to be hard. There can be any number of reasons for why they don't advance in skill (which could be multiple posts' worth of theorizing different reasons), but the simple fact is that the majority of players will find their skill bracket and settle-in for a long stay.

I mean, really think about it: Was there ever truly a time when Killing Floor was hard for you? Maybe when you first played it, but I would imagine that you quickly learned the tactics that you know now which make even Suicidal a walk in the park. Maybe the Husk threw a temporary wrench in the works, but it didn't take long there either before even that was a null threat.

Basically, when planning changes, you need to consider a person of average skill. You also need to redefine your idea of "too easy" to try and keep in mind that you're on the upper echelon of skill for this game. Too easy for you might still be too hard for the average person in the game. So making "too easy" into "decently hard", and suddenly Killing Floor is a barren wasteland of a handful of servers that are hardly populated because the majority of people who played just had a massive barrier put in their way that they just don't care enough to bother with, so they found something else to play instead.

-----

I suppose one thing that Tripwire could consider is maybe have Difficulty-specific Specimens. You don't meet the Armageddon specimen unless you're playing specifically on Suicidal. He doesn't even have stats for Easy/Normal/Hard because he won't spawn there. It'd be a reasonable way for said veterans to have as much challenge as they're going to (because we've established that a skilled enough player will always overcome AI unless it uses cheating tactics*), and the casual players might not even know the guy exists in the first place.

(( *Actually, cheating is precisely how some AIs in gaming manage to be difficult, like fighting game AI that reads your button inputs to know how to counter your attack. Or AI being able to ignore some resource that you as the player have to deal with. Heck, I've seen dozens of cheater AI tactics in my days, and yet those games were still easy. ))

 

[WhiteTigerShiro]

I think what he means is:

A player who is level 1 Sharpie gets Level 1 Sharpie 9mm for every perk

A player who is level 2 Sharpie gets Level 2 Sharpie 9mm for every perk

A player who is level 3 Sharpie gets Level 3 Sharpie 9mm for every perk

A player who is level 4 Sharpie gets Level 3 Sharpie 9mm for every perk (except Sharpie who gets a level 4 Sharpie 9mm)

A player who is level 5 Sharpie gets Level 3 Sharpie 9mm for every perk (except Sharpie who gets a level 5 Sharpie 9mm)

A player who is level 6 Sharpie gets Level 3 Sharpie 9mm for every perk (except Sharpie who gets a level 6 Sharpie 9mm)



I'm not sure about this idea....mainly because it makes leveling Sharpshooter more important then leveling other perks, since it has a multi-perk benefit. Call me bias against Snipers, but I'd rather Medic or Commando become the fulcrum perk then the tacti-cool Sharpshooter.

Maybe a variation of this is that every Perk could have one attribute that carries-over to the other Perks upto a certain level of that perk's efficiency (even if it was only part of the attribute, like Sharpshooter would give the +30% damage attribute, though only for the 9mm). Like, maybe +50% recharge speed from the Medic (Level 2) would carry-over to all Perks once you got Medic to Level 2. Demolitions would give upto Level 3 for the Explosives damage (maybe set it to only apply to Grenades). Maybe Commando gives a small amount of its recoil reduction, making it a valuable off-Perk to level-up if you're a Firebug player.

 

[Undedd Jester]

Think I would simplify that idea by simply saying... take the 9mm pistol off the Sharpshooter. He already has a 50% extra damage boost for headshots. He shouldn't really need any more.

 

[NitroBullet]

I originally wrote this post for the weekend suggestion compilation for TWI. Since submitting my post 13 hours before the deadline wasn't early enough, my suggestions weren't considered. Since they weren't considered, I submit them on their own.

I think the problem is Charlie's Angels 2. The first Charlie's Angels movie was a surprise hit that no one saw coming. It was fresh, unexpected, and full of action. When Charlie's Angels 2 came out, it was obvious that they thought "Let's take all the cool things in the first movie and just give them more of those." The problem is that the balance was off. While there were more guns, more action, more semi-nude bodies, and more explosions there wasn't any lulls in the action to appreciate the action. The balance was off. With the updates, TWI has given the players more cash, bigger guns, more bullets, and more explosions but they haven't taken anything away or increased the difficulty to balance the additions.

I believe the big balance issue in the game is cash. There is simply too much of it in the game. Players get much too powerful weapons in the game much too early. Players are able to stockpile weapons which throws off the balance even more.

Think about this. Which games do you remember? Do you remember that game from last week when the entire team of lvl 6 players stood in a single room and fired down the hallway for 10 waves? Or do you remember that game from 6 months ago when the entire team was killed and you had to run around picking up weapons, trying to scavenge ammo, and where you almost died 3 times but you pulled out the win? Of course you remember the latter. I'm not suggesting that Tripwire make the game so that every wave is a suicidal fight, but to raise the difficulty significantly to balance the increased firepower.


Spawning

I think the problem starts with the spawning of weapons with the players. Players spawn with much too powerful weapons. This leads to extremely easy waves and excess cash because the players don't need to spend money to purchase weapons so they get tier 4 weapons quickly.

Players below level 5 should not spawn with anything other than 9mm and grenades.

Level 5 perks spawn with lowest possible perked weapon.

Medic - MP7
Berserker - Machete
Support - Shotgun
Sharpshooter - Single cannon
Commando - Bullpup
Berserker - Machete
Firebug - Flamer
Demo - M79 (I think the m79 is too powerful, but it is the least perked weapon)

Level 6 perks spawn with level 5 weapon + armor.

Players also spawn with no cash. Make them work for their cash.

This keeps cash to a minimum and the lower waves interesting because the bigger weapons aren't in play immediately.


9mm Bonus for all perks

Because lower level perks don't spawn with a perked weapon, I recommend carrying the sharpie's 9mm bonus over to other perks only up to sharpie lvl 3 no matter the perk's level. So other perks can have up to sharpie lvl 3 perk bonus only on the 9mm.

I think this will promote several beneficial behaviors. This will promote headshots. This will give players who spawn as other perks some type of weapon when they spawn. This will also give the player a decent weapon when they are out of ammo for their perked weapon.

So when a player has reaches sharpie perk level 1, 2 or 3, it applies to only the 9mm across all of their perks.


MP7-ize all weapons

I think TWI hit the solution to the ammo problem with the MP7. As the perk increases, the magazine capacity gets bigger. This also fixes the problem of other perks building a "super-char" by taking the medic or zerker and adding a mix of fully loaded weapons.

After all, how many players are going to pick non-perked weapons when he doesn't get the full benefit? Much less ammo means a perked weapon is going to be better for that perk than a non-perk weapon without bonuses.


Reduce the cash in the game

There is too much cash in the game. Way too much. Too much cash allows for players to purchase tier 4 weapons by wave 2. Using tier 4 weapons in early waves allows players to generate tons of cash that they can give away and soon every player has all of their wanted weapons, full armor, and weapons stashed on the deck and the game isn't a challenge.

Here are my suggestions to lower the amount of cash

1) Remove the ability to repair armor. Make people decide between offense and defense. Make people decide whether to choose the big gun and go with the 40% armor they have or buy new armor and simply refill their current weapons. Make players decide if they want to spend 300 or try to make it through the wave with 65% armor.

2) Reduce the huge discounts for perked weapons. Give some discount but not the huge discounts currently in the game. No way someone should be able to purchase a katana, m14, or similar weapon after wave 1.

3) Double the price of ammo and give a 50% discount to refilling perked weapons.

4) Make the xbow's cost equivalent to its power. Make the xbow cost 1k and each bolt 50. Make players think long and hard before shooting that bolt at a gorefast.


Other suggestions

If a player equips a non-perked weapon, that weapon's weight goes up by one. So a katana weighs 3 to a berserker, but 4 to every other perk. This will help eliminate players mixing ultra-powerful weapons with perks (zerker & medic) that aren't supposed to use those weapons.

Ammo boxes reload only a single randomly chosen carried weapon.

Or screw all of the complicated balancing and just triple the base HP of every specimen.


Comments and suggestions?

So much QQ, needs more Pew Pew!

 

[Evilsod]

Who said to take the perk away? The perk (God, I hate that TWI calls a class a 'perk.' A class is a class. A perk is a perk.) matches the sharpshooters perk up to level 3 for the 9mm only.

But there are waves after the first wave. And giving a small perk bonus to every other perk other than sharpie to a weapon they have to carry will help other perks (again, a perk is not a class) if they spawn without a perked weapon and if they run out of ammo for their perked weapons.

Fair enough i see that now.

Though the point remains, why? Ammo conservation is part of the game. You get given a knife and a 9mm yet you will still encounter people running out of 9mm ammo on the first wave. Why? Because they can't frigging aim thats why. A single 9mm bullet to the head will kill anything on wave 1, Sharpshooter or not, the only difference is bleedout. Then theres the knife that doesn't even use ammo, full stop.

There is nothing underpowered about the 9mm as it stands, people just aren't using it to conserve ammo when they should be and if they are they aren't aiming properly. If you die because you ran out of ammo and have to switch to pistol for numbers of enemies you can't handle that is your own problem, not the games. You should learn to switch to pistol or knife to dispatch enemies when you aren't being pressured.

It just seems like alot of effort on TWIs part for something that isn't even necessary if you play properly.

 

[nutterbutter]

I think what he means is:

A player who is level 1 Sharpie gets Level 1 Sharpie 9mm for every perk
...
A player who is level 6 Sharpie gets Level 3 Sharpie 9mm for every perk (except Sharpie who gets a level 6 Sharpie 9mm)

Exactly.

I'm not sure about this idea....mainly because it makes leveling Sharpshooter more important then leveling other perks, since it has a multi-perk benefit. Call me bias against Snipers, but I'd rather Medic or Commando become the fulcrum perk then the tacti-cool Sharpshooter.

Well, I wouldn't say this makes sharpie more important to level. Apart from this idea, I believe that new players should max sharpie first for several reasons with the primary being immediate access to a perked weapon. Once a player hits sharpie 6, a few waves score enough money to buy the high tier weapons for the perk the player wants to level.

Anyway, don't think of this as leveling the sharpie. It isn't. It is leveling the 9mm to that a player in any perk always spawns with a perked weapon. Since every player always spawns with a 9mm and always has to carry one, that is the reason. I'd be offering the same suggestion if everyone spawned with a commando or support sidearm instead.

About having the Medic or Commando being the fulcrum perk, I'm not sure about that IMO. Those are the two slowest perks to level.

Easily managed by you or me, sure. But remember, we're the minority.

...but the simple fact is that the majority of players will find their skill bracket and settle-in for a long stay.

I hate it. Absolutely hate seeing a full team of lvl 6 perks huddled in a room or corner. Inevitably, I'll play in the open and they will all tell me that I'll die if I don't join them. After a few waves, I'll rack up the most kills. They will hate that and they'll join me for the rest of the game.

I mean, really think about it: Was there ever truly a time when Killing Floor was hard for you? Maybe when you first played it, but I would imagine that you quickly learned the tactics that you know now which make even Suicidal a walk in the park.

Now that you mention it http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=42173

You don't meet the Armageddon specimen unless you're playing specifically on Suicidal.

That is a very good idea. But unless there was a hard deck for lvl 6 chars to join then everyone would be joining suicidal just to see him.

Maybe a variation of this is that every Perk could have one attribute that carries-over

The idea behind letting everyone get a bonus for the 9mm is so they always have a perked weapon and they have to carry it anyway. Don't get hung up that it is normally a sharpie perk. My suggestion was about the 9mm only.

Think I would simplify that idea by simply saying... take the 9mm pistol off the Sharpshooter. He already has a 50% extra damage boost for headshots. He shouldn't really need any more.

I don't think that makes much sense. I think it makes more sense to give a perk to players that have to carry the 9mm and are using it anyways than to take it away from a perk.

 

[CandleJack]

Speaking of always carrying a perked weapon, why not up the damage on the knife too?
And Grenades.

Just saying.

\_(0.o)_/

 

[Galslacht]

Speaking of always carrying a perked weapon, why not up the damage on the knife too?
And Grenades.

Just saying.

\_(0.o)_/

Isn't this already the case with zerker and demo?

 

[nutterbutter]

Fair enough i see that now.

Though the point remains, why? Ammo conservation is part of the game. You get given a knife and a 9mm yet you will still encounter people running out of 9mm ammo on the first wave. Why? Because they can't frigging aim thats why. A single 9mm bullet to the head will kill anything on wave 1, Sharpshooter or not, the only difference is bleedout. Then theres the knife that doesn't even use ammo, full stop.

There is nothing underpowered about the 9mm as it stands, people just aren't using it to conserve ammo when they should be and if they are they aren't aiming properly. If you die because you ran out of ammo and have to switch to pistol for numbers of enemies you can't handle that is your own problem, not the games. You should learn to switch to pistol or knife to dispatch enemies when you aren't being pressured.

It just seems like alot of effort on TWIs part for something that isn't even necessary if you play properly.

You are preaching to the choir. I'n my strategy guide http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=42173 I go over using lower tier weapons many times in many different situations.But I think you are focusing on a few specific situations.

I'm thinking about non-sharpie perks if they spawn without a weapon. Or if they spawn with a weapon but don't have time to get to the trader. Or a group of sirens wipes out a few team members in the first minute of a wave and now 3 players have to clear the wave themselves. Or everyone is dead and the 9mm is all that is left.

My point is that carrying the 9mm is a requirement. The player always spawns with it and it can not be dropped or sold. It doesn't make much sense to force a player to carry an non-perked weapon.

It just seems like alot of effort on TWIs part for something that isn't even necessary if you play properly.

I think people are getting hung up on the idea of building "cross perk" system. I'm not suggesting anything like that. Simply add a 9mm headshot bonus to the other perks. I just suggested that the additional 9mm perk mirror the sharpie's requirement and bonuses for the 9mm.

 

[nutterbutter]

Speaking of always carrying a perked weapon, why not up the damage on the knife too?
And Grenades.

Just saying.

\_(0.o)_/

I'd agree with the knife. After all, perk bonuses allow the player to translate experience with the weapon in the game to higher proficiency. I think the knife qualifies as well. But I don't see how game experience translates to greater grenade efficiency.

 

[Evilsod]

My point is that carrying the 9mm is a requirement. The player always spawns with it and it can not be dropped or sold. It doesn't make much sense to force a player to carry an non-perked weapon.

So in this hypothetical scenario where the equipped players all died and unequipped players didn't, why exactly do they deserve to complete the wave? Not to mention the dead players should have dropped weapons and there should be some spawned around.

And the Knife and 9mm weigh nothing. It is not forcing you to carry a non-perked weapon as that would imply there was a DRAWBACK to having them. Yes it is unfair if you join late and left without time to reach the trader, but **** happens.

 

[nutterbutter]

So in this hypothetical scenario where the equipped players all died and unequipped players didn't, why exactly do they deserve to complete the wave?

Someone hasn't learned the difference between 'and' and 'or.'

'Deserve?' Really?

And the Knife and 9mm weigh nothing. It is not forcing you to carry a non-perked weapon as that would imply there was a DRAWBACK to having them. Yes it is unfair if you join late and left without time to reach the trader, but **** happens.

Doesn't matter that the knife and the 9mm weigh nothing. The bottom line is that every player is forced to carry them. Damage bonuses are there to allow people to gain additional damage for proficiency through experience. It seems silly to have weapons that everyone is forced to carry and to rely on throughout their low perk levels to be unable have a proficiency bonus.

You seem to be arguing that I am trying to make the game easier. I'm doing nothing of the sort. I never have. But it is quite obvious that you prefer one thing and I prefer another. No real reason for us to discuss this anymore.