Why Drew Barrymore is the problem in KF's expansions

[nutterbutter]

I originally wrote this post for the weekend suggestion compilation for TWI. Since submitting my post 13 hours before the deadline wasn't early enough, my suggestions weren't considered. Since they weren't considered, I submit them on their own.

I think the problem is Charlie's Angels 2. The first Charlie's Angels movie was a surprise hit that no one saw coming. It was fresh, unexpected, and full of action. When Charlie's Angels 2 came out, it was obvious that they thought "Let's take all the cool things in the first movie and just give them more of those." The problem is that the balance was off. While there were more guns, more action, more semi-nude bodies, and more explosions there wasn't any lulls in the action to appreciate the action. The balance was off. With the updates, TWI has given the players more cash, bigger guns, more bullets, and more explosions but they haven't taken anything away or increased the difficulty to balance the additions.

I believe the big balance issue in the game is cash. There is simply too much of it in the game. Players get much too powerful weapons in the game much too early. Players are able to stockpile weapons which throws off the balance even more.

Think about this. Which games do you remember? Do you remember that game from last week when the entire team of lvl 6 players stood in a single room and fired down the hallway for 10 waves? Or do you remember that game from 6 months ago when the entire team was killed and you had to run around picking up weapons, trying to scavenge ammo, and where you almost died 3 times but you pulled out the win? Of course you remember the latter. I'm not suggesting that Tripwire make the game so that every wave is a suicidal fight, but to raise the difficulty significantly to balance the increased firepower.


Spawning

I think the problem starts with the spawning of weapons with the players. Players spawn with much too powerful weapons. This leads to extremely easy waves and excess cash because the players don't need to spend money to purchase weapons so they get tier 4 weapons quickly.

Players below level 5 should not spawn with anything other than 9mm and grenades.

Level 5 perks spawn with lowest possible perked weapon.

Medic - MP7
Berserker - Machete
Support - Shotgun
Sharpshooter - Single cannon
Commando - Bullpup
Berserker - Machete
Firebug - Flamer
Demo - M79 (I think the m79 is too powerful, but it is the least perked weapon)

Level 6 perks spawn with level 5 weapon + armor.

Players also spawn with no cash. Make them work for their cash.

This keeps cash to a minimum and the lower waves interesting because the bigger weapons aren't in play immediately.


9mm Bonus for all perks

Because lower level perks don't spawn with a perked weapon, I recommend carrying the sharpie's 9mm bonus over to other perks only up to sharpie lvl 3 no matter the perk's level. So other perks can have up to sharpie lvl 3 perk bonus only on the 9mm.

I think this will promote several beneficial behaviors. This will promote headshots. This will give players who spawn as other perks some type of weapon when they spawn. This will also give the player a decent weapon when they are out of ammo for their perked weapon.

So when a player has reaches sharpie perk level 1, 2 or 3, it applies to only the 9mm across all of their perks.


MP7-ize all weapons

I think TWI hit the solution to the ammo problem with the MP7. As the perk increases, the magazine capacity gets bigger. This also fixes the problem of other perks building a "super-char" by taking the medic or zerker and adding a mix of fully loaded weapons.

After all, how many players are going to pick non-perked weapons when he doesn't get the full benefit? Much less ammo means a perked weapon is going to be better for that perk than a non-perk weapon without bonuses.


Reduce the cash in the game

There is too much cash in the game. Way too much. Too much cash allows for players to purchase tier 4 weapons by wave 2. Using tier 4 weapons in early waves allows players to generate tons of cash that they can give away and soon every player has all of their wanted weapons, full armor, and weapons stashed on the deck and the game isn't a challenge.

Here are my suggestions to lower the amount of cash

1) Remove the ability to repair armor. Make people decide between offense and defense. Make people decide whether to choose the big gun and go with the 40% armor they have or buy new armor and simply refill their current weapons. Make players decide if they want to spend 300 or try to make it through the wave with 65% armor.

2) Reduce the huge discounts for perked weapons. Give some discount but not the huge discounts currently in the game. No way someone should be able to purchase a katana, m14, or similar weapon after wave 1.

3) Double the price of ammo and give a 50% discount to refilling perked weapons.

4) Make the xbow's cost equivalent to its power. Make the xbow cost 1k and each bolt 50. Make players think long and hard before shooting that bolt at a gorefast.


Other suggestions

If a player equips a non-perked weapon, that weapon's weight goes up by one. So a katana weighs 3 to a berserker, but 4 to every other perk. This will help eliminate players mixing ultra-powerful weapons with perks (zerker & medic) that aren't supposed to use those weapons.

Ammo boxes reload only a single randomly chosen carried weapon.

Or screw all of the complicated balancing and just triple the base HP of every specimen.


Comments and suggestions?

 

[gwingcommander]

nice!

nice!

I love this suggestion. You are completely right- people get absurdly powerful and the game becomes more of a shooting gallery than a survival horror.

The mere fact that the game is called "survival horror" should imply that it's actually a struggle to survive. Games like Resident Evil (the originals, not that stupid action game 5) did this to spectacular effect.

The most memorable games are the ones where you struggle. Where you have to come up with clever tricks to survive and cooperate with your team to usual actual team tactics. Too often I find that everyone in the game loads up on some boss hog arms and then just disperse and kill zombies at their leisure. Changes like the ones you suggest would go a long way to promoting the cooperative aspect of the game.

 

[Evilsod]

Perhaps if you'd wanted to be taken more seriously, leaving out the Drew Barrymore/Charlies Angels stuff might've helped your case?

Though skimming over your post it doesn't look like any of it should be taken seriously anyway...

 

[Salad Snake]

I think that your suggestions would increase the difficulty of the game, yes. But they would do so in a way that reduces player options, which in my opinion decreases the "fun factor" of a game.

Specifically, it would vastly discourage multiperk loadouts, which I not only find very fun, but also useful for when a new player joins and doesn't make it to the trader. Limiting your options to one set of weapons at a time makes gameplay much more stale faster, as you remove one criteria that dictates your playing experience (your available weapons).

Think about it: Even with the exact same enemies in the exact same positions (which would never completely happen anyway), facing 2 Scrakes and a FP along with a mob of clots/gorefasts/crawlers is a lot different with a Katana and M79 then with a Hunting Shotgun and Pipes (and these are similar weapons if you think about their strengths & weaknesses). They are two distinctly different gameplay experiences, each fun in their own way. Yet if we completely discourage people selecting off-perk weapons, these gameplay situations become more rare, and certain gameplay situations become more common (one's where you strictly follow your perk's weapons and specializations), thus decreasing variety, and increasing the chance that gameplay will become stale.

I actually like KF now more then ever. I have a very "sandbox" style of play, I like to try new combinations of things and novel tactics instead of simply finding the "best way" to go about things, so the unprecedented variety and options the game now has make it much more enjoyable for me then before the updates.



Your second major point, my major problem with decreasing money is that it will typically lead to less philanthropy in a pub atmosphere, sort of like health packs in L4D (You get heals all the time in KF, yet not L4D. Why? Because the capacity to heal is much rarer in L4D.) More opportunity cost=less altruism. Less altruism=less teamwork most of the time. The reason there is still lending in Suicidal is that these players are typically the best of the best anyway, the most experienced and effective. This means they are also some of the best teamplayers. So lending still goes on because these veteran players realize that the team is more effective with better armament's, even if they impoverish themselves in the process.

Try bankrupting (or just severely reducing) your typically normal pub's cash flow and see if that same lending happens.


However, I would say that money simply gets ridiculous around the latter waves if there have been few deaths. Therefore, I would institute a max money amount (like CS's $16,000). I'm not sure what to set it at, but something that's not too much above an unperked AA12 (which I believe is the most expensive?), and drastically reduce trader discounts except for Medic (whose discount has a different balance purpose) and maybe Firebug (though he doesn't seem as much a poor-man's perk as before with the new money system). That way, buying your last perk weapon leaves you somewhat poor again (no more buying pipes after!), and getting to the max cash amount means that you should give away some cash, since you won't make any more until you do.

The only problem with my suggestion is:

1. If a player dies the wave after buying his AA12 (or equivalent) he or she is basically screwed unless it was dropped on death.

2. The whole "If you have max cash you should just drop some" might mean people will start throwing money at people during the wave. Could be solved by cash flow simply being automatically diverted toward new/poorer players when one player reaches their max.

 

[nutterbutter]

Perhaps if you'd wanted to be taken more seriously, leaving out the Drew Barrymore/Charlies Angels stuff might've helped your case?

Though skimming over your post it doesn't look like any of it should be taken seriously anyway...

It is obviously your choice whether to read something or not, but the comparison of Charlie's Angels 2 to KF's expansions is valid.

 

[nath2009uk]

I really do support you on the spawning stuff, although the Berserkers starter should be changed to the axe, as the Machete really isn't up to par with the others.

 

[SMIFF]

He's right, there is far too much money in this game.

 

[9_6]

While I did not have the time to incorporate any of that into the list, I did read your post.

-Some things like the weapons you spawn with, I have simply forgotten to touch upon. Go figure.
There were a million other things I also could have included but the list can only be so long and I am only one person.
Don't forget, it is also only one person that will be making the changes.
In their spare time.

-There has already been something in place to make weapons much more expensive.
Bringing perk weapon discounts down.
Do you remember how hard it was to finally get hold of a m32 when you were a lv0 demo, even on normal?
Going a step back into that direction should do the trick so cheaper weapons actually become standard and tier 3 weapons are something more special.

-Changes like the 9mm bonus one weren't really needed as it was more about fixing what was severely broken like some ammo prices or the chainsaw.
Also cross-perk bonuses do not even exist yet so you were essentially asking for a new system that changes something not really crucial to balance right now.

-I do not understand where you want to go with by "mp7-izing" all weapons. You did say that the "cross pollination" of weapons was an important factor of kf in another thread before and now you want to severely cut down on it?
Also new systems like raising a weapons weight if they are off-perk were probably not within the restrictions.
Just think about everything that needs to be changed to implement all of that.

 

[Galslacht]

I agree with the topicstarter.
The game is too easy for veterans, even on suicidal.

Some weapons are too powerful on top of the huge amounts of money you get together with too cheap weapons and ammo, making the ''fearsome'' FP and Scrake look like 1 shot headshots on 2 legs and a torso.

There is not really a ''surival'' aspect anymore.

 

[Galslacht]

While I did not have the time to incorporate any of that into the list, I did read your post.

-Some things like the weapons you spawn with, I have simply forgotten to touch upon. Go figure.
There were a million other things I also could have included but the list can only be so long and I am only one person.
Don't forget, it is also only one person that will be making the changes.
In their spare time.

-There has already been something in place to make weapons much more expensive.
Bringing perk weapon discounts down.
Do you remember how hard it was to finally get hold of a m32 when you were a lv0 demo, even on normal?
Going a step back into that direction should do the trick so cheaper weapons actually become standard and tier 3 weapons are something more special.

-Changes like the 9mm bonus one weren't really needed as it was more about fixing what was severely broken like some ammo prices or the chainsaw.
Also cross-perk bonuses do not even exist yet so you were essentially asking for a new system that changes something not really crucial to balance right now.

-I do not understand where you want to go with by "mp7-izing" all weapons. You did say that the "cross pollination" of weapons was an important factor of kf in another thread before and now you want to severely cut down on it?
Also new systems like raising a weapons weight if they are off-perk were probably not within the restrictions.
Just think about everything that needs to be changed to implement all of that.

You did not really read his post, if would be nice of you to see you take up his main point.

I also stated in the suggestions sticky topic that the difficulty was the most urgent issue, the summarized suggested changes by you did not adress this problem in an effective way in my opinion.

Also, I think we should not really take into account that someone of TWI is working on a patch in his sparetime, that is the full responsibility of TWI alone and forms a bad message to the community looking at it from a distance.

 

[9_6]

You did not really read his post, if would be nice of you to see you take up his main point.

I also stated in the suggestions sticky topic that the difficulty was the most urgent issue, the summarized suggested changes by you did not adress this problem in an effective way in my opinion.

Why not?
The difficulty right now stands and falls with the xbow which gets weakened.
The abundance of cash will be met with much more expensive shooters.
Re-buying weapons to completely fill the ammo has been addressed.
Pipebombs are more than twice as expensive for lv6 demos, m32 grenades are too so there is no cheap way to deal with pounds anymore.

I can not really fully predict what exactly those changes will effect in every single detail but they should make everything a lot harder.

That was the point here, yes?
Or am I missing something?

Also, I think we should not really take into account that someone of TWI is working on a patch in his sparetime, that is the full responsibility of TWI alone and forms a bad message to the community looking at it from a distance.

Admitting that was the most honest and respectable thing I have yet seen from a developer and we should just disregard that now?
No :IS2:

 

[nutterbutter]

I think that your suggestions would increase the difficulty of the game, yes. But they would do so in a way that reduces player options, which in my opinion decreases the "fun factor" of a game.

Depends on what someone's view of "fun" is. I am completely serious when I say that. Another comparison of KF's expansions can be made with Everquest. (Yes, evilsod, I'm making another comparison so you have another excuse to just start skimming now) I used to play Everquest a while back and I remember what an absolute pain in the *** it was when someone died. It took a while to run and run and run to the corpse and it was often dangerous to gather one's belongings. A large team wiping out in a bad spot could take 3 to 6 hours to reclaim everyone's belongings. People complained and EQ implemented a different way to resurrect people and their belongings after death and most people liked it. I hated it. Dying, in the old EQ way, was a real penalty. It was a huge pain in the ***. While nothing was ever really lost but time, it was a huge aggravation and it gave the player a significant reason to not do stupid stuff.

What happens when someone dies in KF now? Nothing. They spawn next wave, they get their weapon, and if the player has any skill at all, they buy their weapons again. Oh sure, they may have to wait another wave to buy that katana or m79, but there is no real penalty.

There is effectively no risk with the new expansions so I see effectively no reward. If I'm running around as a sharpie and the rest of the team dies with 100+ specimens left, do you think I get nervous about being able to finish the wave? Nope. And there is the problem.

Specifically, it would vastly discourage multiperk loadouts, which I not only find very fun, but also useful for when a new player joins and doesn't make it to the trader. Limiting your options to one set of weapons at a time makes gameplay much more stale faster, as you remove one criteria that dictates your playing experience (your available weapons).

Yes it would discourage multiperk load-outs, but what does that really mean? It means that not everyone gets to have a katana and m79 by wave 6.

I don't think it affects new players that much because they'll have weight room available for non-perk weapons.

Think about it: Even with the exact same enemies in the exact same positions (which would never completely happen anyway), facing 2 Scrakes and a FP along with a mob of clots/gorefasts/crawlers is a lot different with a Katana and M79 then with a Hunting Shotgun and Pipes (and these are similar weapons if you think about their strengths & weaknesses). They are two distinctly different gameplay experiences, each fun in their own way. Yet if we completely discourage people selecting off-perk weapons, these gameplay situations become more rare, and certain gameplay situations become more common (one's where you strictly follow your perk's weapons and specializations), thus decreasing variety, and increasing the chance that gameplay will become stale.

I have no idea what your point was. Would you mind explaining it again? (not being a smart-***. I really didn't understand what you were trying to say.)

I actually like KF now more then ever. I have a very "sandbox" style of play, I like to try new combinations of things and novel tactics instead of simply finding the "best way" to go about things, so the unprecedented variety and options the game now has make it much more enjoyable for me then before the updates.

I Yes, it is more "fun" in the beginning because all of the weapons are immediately available. But it creates huge balance issues because all of the weapons are immediately available.

Your second major point, my major problem with decreasing money is that it will typically lead to less philanthropy in a pub atmosphere, sort of like health packs in L4D (You get heals all the time in KF, yet not L4D.

Yes it would. Dosh would be much more scarce. But TWI has changed how cash is distributed during the game by going with damage rather than final kill.

Try bankrupting (or just severely reducing) your typically normal pub's cash flow and see if that same lending happens.

There still would be lending going on because if the team isn't equipped properly then the team dies, but there wouldn't be the "I'll lend tons of money out because I have 6k by the 6th wave."

1. If a player dies the wave after buying his AA12 (or equivalent) he or she is basically screwed unless it was dropped on death.

I see that as a benefit. I could be in the minority, but I want people to play as a team and real penalties for dying are a good thing. No more people ramboing because they want every kill. No more people running off to fight at the front of a spawn point, losing their armor in 30 seconds, and then running back to the group screaming "heal me! heal me!"

Reducing the cash in the game really reduces the ability of someone to create one of those "super-char" like Medic + m79 + katana + any other weapon and actually puts the focus back on the team.

Thanks for your reply. You make some really good points.

 

[nutterbutter]

While I did not have the time to incorporate any of that into the list, I did read your post.

First, my post isn't a comment on your list or actions.

Do you remember how hard it was to finally get hold of a m32 when you were a lv0 demo, even on normal?

No one stays a lvl 0.

Going a step back into that direction should do the trick so cheaper weapons actually become standard and tier 3 weapons are something more special.

Sure.

-Changes like the 9mm bonus one weren't really needed as it was more about fixing what was severely broken like some ammo prices or the chainsaw.

Depends. What needs fixing is "balancing" and I listed why bringing lvl 3 sharpie bonus to only the 9mm across perks helps to balance the game.

Also cross-perk bonuses do not even exist yet so you were essentially asking for a new system that changes something not really crucial to balance right now.

Nope. Weapon bonuses per perk was in the list.

-I do not understand where you want to go with by "mp7-izing" all weapons.

As the perk increases, the magazine capacity gets bigger. This also fixes the problem of other perks building a "super-char" by taking the medic or zerker and adding a mix of fully loaded weapons.

After all, how many players are going to pick non-perked weapons when he doesn't get the full benefit? Much less ammo means a perked weapon is going to be better for that perk than a non-perk weapon without bonuses.

Just like other perks can buy the MP7, they don't get the extra large magazine bonus of the MP7 when it is equipped by a medic. Apply that same logic to every other perked weapon's magazine's size or count when the weapon is used by a different perk.

You did say that the "cross pollination" of weapons was an important factor of kf in another thread before and now you want to severely cut down on it? Also new systems like raising a weapons weight if they are off-perk were probably not within the restrictions.

People can still purchase non-perked weapons but they don't get to build a "super-char" anymore. Why do people build super-chars? Because equipping perked weapons only bring bonuses to fully powerful weapons. The perk's proper bonuses outweigh the loss of the weapon's bonuses.

So don't give fully powerful weapons to non-perks or give a slight disadvantage (+1 weight) when equipping a non-perked weapon.

Everyone wants the benefit of a katana? Fine. But they have to find a little extra room in their inventory or they can play the zerker. Everyone wants an m79? Sure. But if they don't want to play demo, then they will have to adjust their inventory in order to carry an AoE weapon.

Weapon weight was on the list. For some reason, it wasn't marked yea or nay, so I assume it was in play.

Just think about everything that needs to be changed to implement all of that.

Actually, everything I suggested with the possible exception of the MP7-izing of weapons was on the acceptable list. If TWI adjusts magazine count instead of magazine capacity, then everything I suggested was on the list.

 

[9_6]

First, my post isn't a comment on your list or actions.

Well you did say that your points weren't considered which makes it seem like that upsets you.
By sharing my thoughts on them I just wanted to let you know that, while not being considered (which really was due to the impending deadline), they were not ignored.

 

[nutterbutter]

Well you did say that your points weren't considered which makes it seem like that upsets you.
By sharing my thoughts on them I just wanted to let you know that, while not being considered (which really was due to the impending deadline), they were not ignored.

Just explaining why I made a new post. Again, my post isn't a comment on your list or actions.

 

[nath2009uk]

Why must you quote every single line they say before writing your answer?

I still think that the spawning weapons should be changed, OR, they be customised and can only be sold for say

 

[nutterbutter]

Why must you quote every single line they say before writing your answer?

If I have multiple responses to a post, I just quote the text that refers to the response to help reduce misunderstandings.

 

[Evilsod]

I still think that the spawning weapons should be changed, OR, they be customised and can only be sold for say

 

[Salad Snake]

I have no idea what your point was. Would you mind explaining it again? (not being a smart-***. I really didn't understand what you were trying to say.)

What I mean is, looking at what contributes to gameplay variety in an FPS like this is:

1. Kinds of enemies.
2. Kinds of weapons.
3. Kinds of environments.
(There are many more criteria of course, but these are three main ones, and pertinent to the conversation)

Discouraging multiperk loadouts as severely as you suggest reduces the second variety criteria, as it would make such "superchar" gameplay situations more rare. You would be using your same perk weapons 90% of the time, if not more. Yes you could simply switch perks, but then you'd just be using that perk's weapons.

Put in a real-world context, one of my favorite weapon combos personally is Berserker Katana+M79 for mid-wave roaming/support. But if you discourage cross-pollination, that unique "flavor" of gameplay is shut off to me. Perhaps this is a plus in your opinion, but I respectfully disagree.

I see that as a benefit. I could be in the minority, but I want people to play as a team and real penalties for dying are a good thing. No more people ramboing because they want every kill. No more people running off to fight at the front of a spawn point, losing their armor in 30 seconds, and then running back to the group screaming "heal me! heal me!"

I understand where you're coming from. These days KF seems like a straight action game instead of "survival horror", particularly on lower difficulties. However, I also think KF makes a damn good action game, and I like to go on Normal and just roll Zeds after coming home from work or whatnot. But there are of course also times when I want a "serious" game, that feels like a feat to accomplish. So I think that, again, variety should be preserved.

Make both parties happy by further differentiating the difficulty levels. I think many here feel that, in particular, Normal and Hard difficulties are too close together. I agree. Leaving Normal alone, I would take Hard mode a little further. Wiki says that Hard mode Zed Damage, Health, and Speed are at 125/135/115% respectively, with Normal being all 100% and Suicidal being 175/175/130%.

I would ramp Hard mode up to 155% Dmg, 135% Health, and 125% Speed. This, along with the increased numbers, creates a game experience where Zeds are just about as easy to pop now as before, but there are more of them, you have a smaller window to shoot them before they get to you, and most importantly there is a greatly increased penalty for letting them break through. This punishes poor teamwork and communication (like Suicidal), while being a little more forgiving of, say, a mistimed reload. On the other hand, it rewards good teamwork and concentrated firepower with the visceral pleasure of demolishing Zed ranks (like Normal, except with more numbers for even greater gore-fests!). Thus, it becomes the true in-betweener mode it should be instead of the Normal+ mode it is now.


As for Suicidal, I would ramp it up too, since most veterans can handle it by now without too many nail-biters. I do not think increasing health is the answer, as it's frustrating to know you can't possibly put out the DPS to, say, kill a FP before it rages and kills you as the last one left. Put another way, simply making Zeds more of a HP-wall does not encourage suspense so much as frustration.

I think the best part of Suicidal is:

1. Scarcity of money.
2. Increased Zed speed.

These combined with the amount of damage Zeds do are what give Suicidal it's intensity. The first because it creates a feeling of general dread ("Am I going to have enough dosh to buy X weapon?", "What if I die and don't drop it?", etc). The second creates acute panic in pressure situations (You can't outrun the Zeds nearly as easily anymore, you have a smaller window to shoot them.), forcing you to turn and fight (Hopefully desperately).

These two are what should be greatly increased in the new Suicidal. The Zeds should be even faster, and money even more scarce. Like I said in the other post, I'm more worried about reducing money at the normal pub level, I'm not as worried for Suicidal players.

Keep in mind though that these suggestions are made without any knowledge of future Xbow nerfs. I think much of the game balance hinges on this one weapon, and I also have a hunch it will receive further changes very soon....

Thanks for your reply. You make some really good points.

Thank you for engaging in constructive debate, instead of simply flaming me. Which I expected, until I remembered that this wasn't SPUF forums.

 

[WhiteTigerShiro]

I agree with the topicstarter.
The game is too easy for veterans, even on suicidal.

To be fair, that's really more the veterans' fault than the developers'. Not to say that there aren't things that they can do to make the game harder, but let's be honest here; one week after said changes and the veterans would be back to complaining that the game is still too easy. See, this is part of what PvP is for. A developer can only make a game SO challenging before it has to get just plain cheap in order to make the game "hard", but even THEN the veterans will master whatever cheap tactics the game might pull and then it's back to the forums to talk about how Tripwire needs to make the game harder.

Simple point of fact: Human beats AI. There was only one recorded case of an AI beating a human: Deep Blue. But even that is suspect on whether or not human players were intervening to help the AI, and IBM refused a rematch and dismantled the AI shortly there-after. So basically that's it, one AI that defeated a human player, and the legitimacy is up for debate.

To put it simply, if said veterans want a definitive challenge, they need to seek PvP situations, not a PvE co-op game; because no matter what Tripwire does to make the game harder, the veterans will have it stomped within the week and be back to crying that it's "too easy".

Not to say that I'm opposed to the idea of making the game harder, I'm just saying that veteran players need to realize that the game is only easy for them, meanwhile the rest of the player-base is perfectly content with the difficulty as-is.