Gunslinger Perk - Yes or No?

[Reise]

Pistols are Sharpshooter's core weapons?

Did everyone just forget about the LAR or something?

I might have missed it, but again, could someone please explain akimbo to me?

Akimbo is a slang term for dual wielding weapons.

In gaming, to dual wield is to hold a weapon in each hand. Dual wield may be called akimbo style, though it has little resemblance to the human position of that name. This most commonly refers to matched pairs of handguns but can refer to any other weapon that can be held in one hand such as machine pistols and even melee weapons, although this is more common in role-playing games, where it is usually termed dual wielding. The term is largely slang now and has little to no consistency with the original meaning.

 

[Herborist]

How so? As far as I know there isn't a perk solely based on handguns. As I've said plenty of times, it doesn't fit the Sharpshooter image. In short, they'd be perkless weapons if not for the not-so-justifiable addition to Sharpshooter perk. Plus, removing them from sharpshooters is a step towards balancing that perk.

You ask about this perk's "niche". Commandos "have high fire-rate", which is to be expected from a perk using automatic weapons.
Sharpshooter's niche is using long-range weapons "with pinpoint accuracy". Isn't that why it's called "long-range weapon" in the first place?
Why can't the Gunslinger perk's niche be using akimbo pistols? What's the problem with that?

By the way, you say the siren's weak. Well, leave one alive on suicidal, and let her scream once or twice. If you're still alive, your screen will be all shaky, and blinking red. They're small, and mix well among clots because they're the same size. Plus, you'll be far too worried with that enraged FP rushing towards you to even SEE her.

You're just reiterating what I've already said as if it's some kind of counter-argument. Sharpshooter use low fire rate, high accuracy weapons, and commandos use high fire rate, medium distance weapons (most effective at medium distances). There doesn't need to be a perk based solely on handguns because they're covered by sharpshooters. They get more types of weapons than other perks because more types of weapons fall under the category of sharpshooter.

Honestly, I don't see many sirens on hard or suicidal unless my teams already on its way out. Usually there'll be at least one firebug and he handles most of the mobs, which is why I said that they're weak - light spraying from a firebug will take them out. You're confusing strength and annoyance - they're weak, but really annoying.

I bet your pardon.

This "niche", how did you define it? because:

-Sharpshooter does not have "aim-bot" ability aka pinpoint accuracy. He can miss a long shot just as much as anyone. The perk could only be as good as the player. And certainly, sharpshooter is not the only one who use "long range weapon", since most the time, medic picks xbow. He's only good at using long range weapon in the same way support good at shotgun or firebug good at flame thrower.

-Commandos does not have high fire rate. The commando's perk bonus does not include "increase fire rate by xx%", just increase reload rate which sharpshooter have.

And finally, if you said sharpshooter is good at long range weapon, bingo, one more reason to take handguns from sharp shooter hand and give them to... to... Mr. Gunslinger.

What's the point in bringing up the fact that not all players have perfect accuracy? Sharpshooter weapons are relatively accurate, long range weapons - if you have bad aim, don't be a sharpshooter.

The commando perk gives bonuses to a specific class of weapon: automatic machine guns. The fact that the perk itself gives no bonus to firing speed is irrelevant.

How is the sharpshooters proficiency with long range weapons justification for removing pistols?

 

[MasterCheff]

well its a bloody sharpshooter since when did a sharpshooter use a deagle to handle things i thought sharpshooter was meant to be the guy who was in the back of the battlefield picking off heavies

 

[Herborist]

well its a bloody sharpshooter since when did a sharpshooter use a deagle to handle things i thought sharpshooter was meant to be the guy who was in the back of the battlefield picking off heavies

Sharpshooters suck at mobs (unless they just happen to be in a straight line and you've got an xbow out). They're the only job whose main weapon can't handle mobs; long range weapons are a ***** to reload.

Handguns give them an alternative that still maintains their credo of superlative accuracy.

 

[MasterCheff]

honestly i give up on arguing now all i know is that i support the perk theres so much that needs to be worked out in this thread but it will be

 

[brphoenix]

How is the sharpshooters proficiency with long range weapons justification for removing pistols?

Let me quote my own post regarding this:

They [pistols] DO NOT FIT the general Sharpshooter's image. I'll even quote Wikipedia here:

A marksman is a person who is skilled in precision shooting, using projectile weapons, such as with a rifle but most commonly with a sniper rifle, to shoot at small long-range targets.[...]Another term for a marksman is a sharpshooter

And seeing as handguns aren't as accurate, in real life, as sniper rifles, they aren't true sharpshooter's weapons. So saying a Gunslinger is a Sharpshooter without headshot bonuses is a FAILED argument.

Oh, if the nerf TWI is planning for Sharpies is removing M14's laser sight and adding a scope to it, the weapon would be rendered close to useless in short-range. The revolver would still be useful in short-range.

EDIT: I missed your last post, so here's my answer:

Well... WHAT!?

Are you completely UNAWARE of Sharpshooters M14 spam issue!?
That weapon is perfectly accurate, has hitscan properties, a laser aiming feature for close and long range shooting, 20-round clip, shoots as fast as you can click, 300-bullet reserve, reloads insanely fast and kills a gorefast with one bullet. How can the Sharpshooter POSSIBLY be useless against mobs!?

That and he isn't supposed to handle mobs.

 

[AstorSigma]

Sharpshooter: I believe Sharpshooter should be reworked so that the perk is as useless in close quarters combat as the Support Specialist is at long range. Other than taking away it's bonuses with pistols, their weapons would have to be reworked.

It might vary from person to person, but as I understand it, the scope magnification of the crossbow makes target acquisition more challenging/difficult when dealing with specimens in close quarters. I propose that a scope be added to at least the M14 (this is not taking into account the issues of M14's being "overpowered" or the fire rate of the crossbow. I don't give a damn about fire rate, this is a comparison of target acquisition with a scope and without a scope). Perhaps a further increase in magnification to make it more difficult in close range combat?

Yes, this would mean Sharpshooter would effectively become a "Sniper". From far away it would pick out high value specimens in the crowd and take them out before they reach you and your teammates. I'm sure Sharpshooter was never cornered into this role before (instead given bonuses for aiming accurately/correctly at heads) because being useless in close quarters combat doesn't suit this game. But if more room is to be made for other perks..

I agree with the idea of adding a scope but this would not make the class useless in close range. As previously stated, the M14 spam is an obvious solution to close range mobs. However if you combine your idea to add a scope and the idea of lowering clip amount, (7-8?) you make sure that the sharpshooter can get out of a sticky situation up close but only at the cost of it's much more precious ammo. There may be a few other areas that require nerfing to bring the M14 in line but this is a good start I think.

Guns' niche would be his versatility.
Don't tell me that's Commando's, because he does not have proficiency with long-range-y weapons (SCAR doesn't deal enough damage for that, and he's stuck with default weapon damage for all other stuff).
Gunslingers would be able to rip apart lower Zeds with his 9mm, deal medium-range, medium-level damage with handcannons, and deal high damage at longer range with his revolver.
No other perk can do that (except the Sharpshooter, that needs to have his short-range proficiency removed by nerfing the M14 EBR, but that's another story).

I wholeheartedly agree with this. The gunslinger should be the perk that is good at all ranges but not great at any range in particular. Like you said, versatility is the key word.

 

[Aerowind]

How about making it so that Gunslingers get a bonus for burning through ammo? Give them like increased body shot damage. Or extra damage for every consecutive bullet you put into a Zed. It's definitely different from all the other perks where people generally want to conserve ammo. If you're going to be carrying six handguns on you anyways, might as well make it so you have a reason to use all of them.

Granted, it might get kind of pricey on ammo, but that can always be reduced or something.

 

[Reise]

Sharpshooters suck at mobs (unless they just happen to be in a straight line and you've got an xbow out). They're the only job whose main weapon can't handle mobs; long range weapons are a ***** to reload.

Handguns give them an alternative that still maintains their credo of superlative accuracy.

The M14 and LAR are plenty quick enough.

 

[Aerowind]

Why not go for a sort of frantic play style focusing on burning through ammo? Like increase damage on body shots, or make each successive hit with handguns do increasingly more damage (perhaps only with dual handguns?). If you're carrying around six guns on your person, might as well create a style revolving around using all of them. It's definitely different from every other perk where you want to try and conserve ammo as much as possible.

Handgun ammo costs would have to be low enough so it doesn't burn a hole in your pocket though.

 

[Bio666]

Just found this. Awesome, hope TWI will make it into the game...

YouTube - Kevin Killian Demonstrating Gun Spinning Tricks

 

[brphoenix]

Just found this. Awesome, hope TWI will make it into the game...

YouTube - Kevin Killian Demonstrating Gun Spinning Tricks

Too bad there aren't idle animations for weapons D:

 

[Herborist]

Let me quote my own post regarding this:



EDIT: I missed your last post, so here's my answer:

Well... WHAT!?

Are you completely UNAWARE of Sharpshooters M14 spam issue!?
That weapon is perfectly accurate, has hitscan properties, a laser aiming feature for close and long range shooting, 20-round clip, shoots as fast as you can click, 300-bullet reserve, reloads insanely fast and kills a gorefast with one bullet. How can the Sharpshooter POSSIBLY be useless against mobs!?

That and he isn't supposed to handle mobs.

"mobbing" = being able to hit more than one specimen at a time.

spamming M-14 = sniping from afar

Not too mention how much the M-14 costs more than 2x HC's.

 

[Reise]

Not too mention how much the M-14 costs more than 2x HC's.

As it should, because spamming and being able to wreck everything within 100 feet should come with a cost.

Having that and 2x Handcannons available to a Sharpshooter is just excessive.

 

[Bio666]

Too bad there aren't idle animations for weapons D:

Well, maybe after each reload, there's a small spinning animation, especially for both weapons, it'll be awesome.

But it'll be repetitive and may harm more than help when you need to reload ASAP.

Bingo. Make it so that if I spin ma gun, the next shot will initiate zed-time. spin-reload-start to own...Now THAT'S what set gunslinger apart, the ability to know for sure whenever he starts a zed-time, so that he'll never run dry while in ZED-time.

With this, I can see me mapping a new button for "everyone's ready, ZED time is 10s"

Or playing a strategic role of hold back ZED time, in case "Dude, slow him(fp/scrake) down, so I can shoot him"

 

[SMIFF]

Well, maybe after each reload, there's a small spinning animation, especially for both weapons, it'll be awesome.

But it'll be repetitive and may harm more than help when you need to reload ASAP.

Bingo. Make it so that if I spin ma gun, the next shot will initiate zed-time. spin-reload-start to own...Now THAT'S what set gunslinger apart, the ability to know for sure whenever he starts a zed-time, so that he'll never run dry while in ZED-time.

With this, I can see me mapping a new button for "everyone's ready, ZED time is 10s"

Or playing a strategic role of hold back ZED time, in case "Dude, slow him(fp/scrake) down, so I can shoot him"

i reload at almost every oppurtunity, this will become very annoying, maybe if it was every 5 reloads or something then it wont be so bad

 

[Nanostrike]

I could sit and start picking apart peoples posts too, phoenix, but I've got better things to do... Seriously, as it is right now, this is just the Sharpshooter class without the headshot bonuses, a revolver added in, and some zed-time stuff. The only reason to even consider that would be the coolness factor of dual-weilding, but it's not enough.

At least come up with some new weapons. To be honest, the 9mm sucks without the headshot bonus damage, and handcannons are only average without headshots. With just the damage bonuses to them, you're looking at a very ammo-limited, low-damage class. There are tons of handguns in the world. Plus the untouched field of SMGs, so there's no real reason to be recycling existing weapons. Uzis, Tek 9s, ect. Not even considered. Shame on you!

There's no real discussion in this topic about the potential perk. Just the "It'd be awesome! Lets not listen to any reasons why it might not fit in or might not be effective! And while we're at it, lets attack the Sharpshooter perk!" I'm not trying to tear down the perk idea. I think it's a good one. But you need to be able to respond to criticism instead of just saying "Nu-uh!" and/or citing Wikipedia...

I'll toss some generic stuff out here to start it rolling in the right direction

Weapon Possibilities w/ Tiers:

[TIER 1]
9mm (Alternate/Custom) A different 9mm pistol. Slightly higher damage and a bigger clip size. Let the Sharpie keep his 9mm and make a new one. The Beretta isn't the only one in the world. Hell, just adding a stock and an extended clip to the 9mm would let it be a different, badass weapon, without copying.

[TIER 2]
Upgraded pistol [Colt .45, Luger, Browning Hi-Power, ect] (There are plenty of other upgraded pistol options out here besides the handcannon. Basically any semi-auto pistol that's an upgrade from a 9mm would work. This is our semi-auto, higher-damage pistol. Higher clip size than the handcannons, but lower than the 9mm. Good for mid-range stuff.)
Automatic Pistols [Either glocks, Tek9s, MAC10] (With or without the spiffy silencer) or something similar] (Accurate, fast reload time, high ammo/clip capacity. Similar to the MP7, but doesn't suck. Can be dual-wielded)

[TIER 3]
Revolver (Very high damage, good rate of fire, very slow reload time, low ammo capacity. Possibly add a scope or something to make it viable at longer range. Think the Crossbow with perhaps half the power, without the penetration and with a 6-shot clip)
SMG (An Uzi, TMP, or something similar. Still small enough to be a handgun, but better than the automatic pistols. High ammo cap/clip size, decent damage, and a crazy rate of fire, but less accuracy, especially when firing full-auto.)

Gunslinger

• X% Damage Bonus with handguns. (Goes by the usual 10% -> 60% scale here.)
• X% Reload Speed Increase with handguns (Scaling comparable to Sharpshooter. Needs a high bonus to compensate for the high reload speed of dual-wielded weapons.)
• X% Recoil Reduction with handguns (Somewhere in between Sharpshooter and Commando on this. Needs to be able to hold dual autos/SMGs relatively steady and not have a revolver jump out of your hands.)
• X% Movespeed increase when weilding handguns (Scales up with levels, similar to medic/zerker
• Can toggle between Single Handgun and Dual Handguns
• -At Level 3+, add a Laser Sight as alt-fire for all pistols, including dualies. (To avoid alt-fire conflicts with flashlights, this could be made to be always on if needed or a new key added)
• -As Gunslinger levels up (Probably starting at 3), clip sizes are extended. (9mm goes from 15->20, Automatic pistols go from 20->30->40, Revolver goes from 6->8)
• +X% Ammo capacity increases with all handguns (This would be important for all weapons, but ESPECIALLY the Autos/SMGs)
• ZED time extensions (Zed time adds to the class, but damage centered around zed time is too gimmicky)
• X% Less movespeed decrease when Ironsight aiming with Handguns (A big feature of the class, as a skilled Gunslinger will be able to ironsight at only a marginal speed reduction, blasting away as he runs. Possibly wouldn't apply to the Revolver's Scope, however)
• X% Discount on Handguns (The usual here. Gotta have the discounts)

The classes big draws would be:
-Versatility (Everything from high single-target damage (Revolver/Upgraded Pistol) to fast-firing sweeper weapons (Autos/SMGs) is here.)
-Lightweight weapons (Adding to the versatility, all the weapons here are lightweight, meaning you can carry multiple sets of dual weapons. If they each weigh around 4-5kgs each, you can carry probably 3 sets of dual weapons, allowing a LOT of versatility)
-Mobility (Movespeed bonus, plus ironsighting not slowing the class down too much, adds to being able to shoot and move. Laser sights help as well)
-Sniper/Sweeper potential (With both the revolver AND auto weapons, the class can switch from Sniping to sweeping almost instantly. If the team is lacking one or the other, you just need to pick up the right weapons.)


There. Fresh ideas on it that wouldn't cut into another class' niche too much. Not quite as good at the OHKO from a distance as Sharpshooter, nor as the commando at mid-range sweeping, but can do both at the same time, and be fast while doing so.

The class' main weakness would be longer-range stuff, as unless sniping with the Revolver, distant enemies like the Husk will be able to shrug off a lot of the smaller pistol fire, while the Autos/SMGs would be too inaccurate to use reliably at that range.

 

[Reise]

Seriously, as it is right now, this is just the Sharpshooter class without the headshot bonuses, a revolver added in, and some zed-time stuff.

What are any of the other perks in the game but X class with a different weapon and some bonuses?

Every reason against the perk has been some kind of attack or personal opinion. We've rationalized why we don't want to include all new weapons, and a revolver for the Tier 3. We've gone over why certain bonuses would work better than others. We've come up with reasonable "niche" abilities.

All the discussion against it has left now is the fact that people just flat out dislike it, or have some issue with weapons being removed from Sharpshooter. The occasional constructive post is much appreciated, though.

In the end the whole thing is up to Tripwire and the chances of this even being added are fairly slim. So forgive us if we don't get everything down pat to the last minuscule detail.

 

[Bio666]

this is just the Sharpshooter class without the headshot bonuses, a revolver added in, and some zed-time stuff.

Sharpshooter signature bonus is headshot bonus damage. Otherwise, there's nothing set sharpshooter apart from other generic bonus.

Let put it this way:

-Commandos see health/stalker
-Supports weld door
-firebugs / demolitions focus on special kind of damage (apart from projectile damage)
-Medics heal.
-Bezerkers are melee expert.

So this new perk will focus on ZED time stuff. Yes, exactly "some zed-time stuff" you said.

I agree that bezerker and commando can prolong the time, but still getting zed time when you're freely roaming or reloading or firing the few last bullets and reload, etc. All of them are very annoying. So this guy has more chance of initiate zed time and knows when it happens.

For example it can help sharpshooter pull the head shot correctly to save teammates. Think about it like commando/bezerker are about quantity, then gunslingers are about quality.

To be honest, the 9mm sucks without the headshot bonus damage, and handcannons are only average without headshots.

HC are average? I bet your pardon. HC damage is 95-115, very comparable with M14 (100-115) or even higher than SCAR(75-85) Source: http://strategywiki.org/wiki/Killing_Floor/Weapons

Conclusion: they are just not good in your hand.





However, I appreciate your time posting everything. Good idea about uzi and stuff. Again, final call is nout in our hand.

 

[Marls]

Nice

I brang up the ideal awhile ago and just about everyone turned it down becasue they like hugging there sharpshooter. Great to see a change of heart.

I voted a yes, as well Sharpshooters are consided overpowered right now, but I beleive the sharpshooters role IS what its suppose to be, sharp shooting of critical spots. So removing its unrelated pistol masteries would be a blessing to the game. If you are prepared to take down a fleshy with a critical head shot, be prepared to make sure your team can cover you when yous get swamped. Thats why the OP issue is with the sharpy right now. Or if you were a gunslinger, you rely on your other team classes to take out the bigger targets, similar to what commando use to be before they got the FN SCAR.

A Gunslinger perk would be a nice adition to the game. I like variety and its a good step in that direction.

I am all for it.