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Don't drink and play RO

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#22
I've noticed that the third beer starts affecting my accuracy. So I drink only two when I'm playing seriously.

As to the Red Army... The amount of rapine and mass murder and the maltreatment of prisoners and the civilian population that followed its path through Europe makes me shake my head at any comments of praise. The entire war was a tragedy and there were no heroes. It says a lot that in the end German armies were fighting so that they could surrender to the western allies. The Red Army meant death.

There were two crooks in Europe: Stalin and Hitler. One was dealt with. The other was left to his devices. The world would be a better place if neither had been allowed to reign.
 
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#23
M.R.Maiornikov said:
OK of coarse there were cases of drunk soldiers. But the never reached Army levels. But in your post you clearly implement that EVERY soldier was a drunk one, thus the CASUALTY FIGURE was that high.And about those "war rations" i suggest you read memoires of soviet veterans who actually supposed to recieve them. Often they were simply not issued. And that's a proven fact. I will definitely find you a citation about this in the days that comes.So maybe you should pick up a few more books written by the actual veterans instead basing your comments on the western writers who never experienced the eastern front themselves but rising them to god level describing them.

For the record, alot of western historians were repeating the official "history" that kremlin provided. But now alot of things from that version was proven incorrect. But for some strange reasons they are still repeating it.

Example:

The books: "the official Inceclopaedia of the Great patriotic war" and the "Barbarossa" by Valentin Pikul (both had kremlin propaganda experts working for them) claimed that Stalin was a simple fool and coward, but in recent years a certain autor called Vladimir Karpov wrote a book called "Gneralissimus" completely proving those acusations erounous.The book became one of best sellers in Russia, and for the record the author passed the Gulag the war and his family was executed by NKVD so he had every reason to hate Stalin but as he said in his book "I just want to post pure facts and no opinions".The other book was about Joukov and in that too you will find mismatches with official history. But western historians keep affirming the same thing the kremlin ones do. And that goes for many other things. I could name them, but it will take alot of time.

So i suggest instead of posting your "References" try to pick more of russian veterans books (i buy them here at Montreal so i imagine that they also have them in Vancover) and find out the other side of the "Facts" as you like to call them.You see i'm fortunate enough to know the russian,english and french language so i have a possibily to compare different sides of that war , written by writers in those languages.
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Every source I've mentioned includes thousands of references and painstaking research into actual Red Army archives declassified or into former Soviet archives now in the hands of the Ukranian government and Belorussian governments and other former Soviet republics who do not censor information in the same way the Russian government still protects the former Soviet archives. They also include hundreds of interviews with former Red Army soldiers. Objective history.

I would never cite anything based on Soviet writing before 1991 and would be very skeptical of anything produced in Russia itself, as censorship is still widely practiced and atrocities by former Soviet armies are generally not accepted for publication in Russia. This does not hold true in former Soviet territories, where after 65 years, researchers are finally able to examine actual first hand information written and reported at the time. Former Red Army soldiers no longer fear to speak up.

Casualty figures, even the 422,000 Soviet soldiers shot by the NKVD for so called crimes are now open to scrutiny. As for the Russian veteran books, there are some, and I"ve read and studied many and many other books include the information from hundreds of interviews with them. Getting to the point of the argument here, I stick to what I've said, that without a doubt the evidence supports the chronic alcohol problems endemic in the Red Army in the Second World War. The Vodka ration has been described, much in the same was I have described it, by dozens of historians researching from orginal material and not just repeating and reprinting other peoples sources. The front line soldiers, the minority who survived multiple combat engagements all report the same thing (keep in mind the Soviet males born in Russia in 1923 were over 90 percent dead by 1944), the military infrastructure at the time reports the same thing.

By 1944 and 1945 just before the end, the problems grew so out of control with the looting, the alcohol and the black market, especially among the ex-frontoviki (former front line soldiers) that the official headings on Red Army newspapers and publications were changed from "Death to the German Occupiers" to "For our Soviet Motherland." Ilya Ehrenberg, former propaganda guru was villified now by the politruks on official orders from the Red Army high command. General Zhukov himself recognizing the problem issued a statment with implied threats, "Many complaints continue about robbery, rape and individual cases of banditry on the part of individuals wearing the Red Army uniform." He stated on June 30th 1945. Zhukov gave the army 5 days to clean up the act and confined Russian soldiers to base unless on official business or in the company of officers, on pain of punishment. This order was partially successful, but not entirely. The most common military crime reported in the records from late summer 1945 was drunkeness, according to the State Archive of the Russian Federation.

Not a word typed without the overwhelming support of historical evidence.

Whoever the original poster was, I doubt he could have forseen the lively debate his picture inspired.
 
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#26
CatMangler said:
Lets break another stereo type whereby a whole thread can be discussed without the flame war that breaks out after 5 posts
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Ok first of all, there is NO flame war that is started here. Both parties explained their points of view in a polite matter.

As for the 'Rations' i suggest you read stalingrad epopy- a book with no story line what so ever but rather a compilation of different declassified materials by the russian government in recent years, and published in a single book. In that there in a clear document describing those ration. The source states that the soldiers who are suppose to recieve them simply don't because of the hardness of supplying the front line troops. Let alone the vodka 'rations' those troops didn't even recieved the normal rations of bread that is supposed to be issued to the soldiers. There is another Document describing it during the Prohorovka battle and the invasion of Ukraine. For the moment i can't really provide the exact references as i'm at work but i will look at them in my free time, probably this weekend.

Also in the years 41/42 red army experience all sort of problems linking to the supply of the front line troops, wheather it was ammunition, provision, equipment,etc. So in those years, provisions of vodka was simply out of question as described in the memoires of G.Joukov (now i know that this book can be hardly considered as a source) but still it was some truth in it.

Also for a fact, it was proven that french soldiers recieved a ration of red vine, but this by all means doesn't mean that the suffered the chronical alcoholism.

Source:
It was essential to morale, much like the issue of red wine with rations in the French forces
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'The tank operations' by Goth

Also think logically for instance here. The ration was 100g. Now please i ask the members from this board to come forward and tell me who ever got drunk from a 100g ration of vodka? I for one never suffered from being drunk while consuming 100g of vodka, and i have a sick liver, which makes me experienced alcohol 3 times as hard as a normal man, if we consume the same amount.

Also the germans, during their Barbarossa offensive, often recieved the provisions of Shnaps (a german vodka if you will) and were quite happy consuming it. But it doesn't mean that the whole german army suffered from alcohol addiction.

Here's another case of a rather American fighter pilot during WW2:

We got to the point where the only food was pork and canned peaches. We still had some rather lousy coffee and plenty of sugar and flour, and the bakers made fresh bread daily. Some of the cooks were innovative and with all of those canned peaches, they started draining off the juice. They put it in casks behind the stoves, added some bakers yeast, and then stood back to see what would happen, and plenty did. The result was a remarkably potent liquor which they called "mojo juice."
I was not much of a drinking man in those days. I tasted it, and it was terrible. Some of the enlisted men acquired a few bottles of the stuff and proceeded to have a roaring party. During its height those of us who were sober were kept busy keeping the drinkers from beating the hell out of each other, or restraining them from going outside underdressed for the arctic cold.
The next day we were aware of men with some of the most monumental hangovers ever seen. Some of them damned near died, yet after three days, all had recovered. In a way it was fortunate that the weather remained bad and we didn't have to fly. The senior officers found out about all of this, and wasted no time in confiscating all the mojo juice that could be found. Strict orders were posted prohibiting any consumption of alcoholic beverages and that ended the mojo period.
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A memory of a Pilot laid over in Greenland on the way to England .

From this we can see that every army had their 'Rations' of whatever they could find but never they were called 'chronic' alcoholics. I don't undersnad why russian soldier is portrait as one, simply because he did consumed his ration when ever it was possible.

And this brings me to our famous stereotype: 'The russians drown in alcohol'(vodka)
 
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#29
Bolt said:
Wrong. A little more than 50% of males, who's date of birth was in 1923-1925 years, survived the war.

Also, I recommend to visit this site (www.iremember.ru) and read veterans' memoirs. No crappy political coldwar bull**** there.
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My stat was 1923 only, and 90 percent of males born in Russia itself were dead. Someone was also comparing the Red Army to French and other WEstern armies in WW2. This can't be done. The East and the West front were vastly different in so many ways it would take hours to reply just in brief.

This is an interesting little article, modern, however corroborates the endemic alcohol problems that are well recognized in Russia still to this day and indicates just how difficult it still is for authorities to try to tackle it.

http://www.mosnews.com/commentary/2005/12/15/alcoholism.shtml
 
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#31
slyder73 said:
My stat was 1923 only, and 90 percent of males born in Russia itself were dead. Someone was also comparing the Red Army to French and other WEstern armies in WW2. This can't be done. The East and the West front were vastly different in so many ways it would take hours to reply just in brief.

This is an interesting little article, modern, however corroborates the endemic alcohol problems that are well recognized in Russia still to this day and indicates just how difficult it still is for authorities to try to tackle it.

http://www.mosnews.com/commentary/2005/12/15/alcoholism.shtml
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Actually i wasn't comparing the front as whole but rather similar cases of "rations" that were issued in different armies during the ww2. Please read more carefully my arguments. Also comparing russians and germans won't be so far fetched because both of those nations fought on the eastern front,thus experienced similar conditions. Please reread my arguments to grasp and undersnand them.

Also i would like to suggest you a book called " Ukroshenie tayfuna" or in translation "Typhoon liquidation" about the moscow battle. You will clearly see all the agruments stated by me above about the actual situation of the frontoviks and their supposed "rations".

it always surprises me how some ppl can turn a jooke thread into a serieus political issue. Smile a bit ppl, It wont hurt I promiss!
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That exactly why i posted this image at the beginning. A pure fun image in RO. But someone called my nation chronic alcoholics and stated that the high number of our casualties during ww2 was because of that. Now i'm sorry but i simply can't allow someone laughing at those people who lost their lifes defending my motherland. Especially from someone who have never experinced what they went through.
 
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#33
slyder73 said:
But this is so much fun! :D
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Wow so you don't take this discussion seriously. For you it is a simple joke? You stated an insult to my nation and for you it is fun. Then i have no more business with you.

As to correct you about the whole ~30 millions figure. In recent years, it was proven that the soldiers losses on both sides were roughly equal but most of the casualties of that figure come from the women and children to lived during that war in the wartorn regions of the country. Surely you can't say that they were drunk too!

As for your article about modern Russia. I just have to tell you, never compare the two. Living in 1940's and 2000's is a very different thing in russia. In those days you could be sentenced to 10 years in gulag just by wraping a fish in a journal with a portrait of lenin or stalin on it, let alone the penal code for drunkiness. In modern days the situation is much more loose. So it is illogical comparing those two periods.
 
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#34
M.R.Maiornikov said:
Wow so you don't take this discussion seriously. For you it is a simple joke? You stated an insult to my nation and for you it is fun. Then i have no more business with you.
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This is a forum centered around an online game. Nobody should be taking discussions on here terribly seriously, nor should anyone be feeling emotional over a typed conversation on a game forum. Once in a while it is enjoyable to dig into ones mind and remember information, to debate a topic, to have to go so far as to find sources and remember material one has studied or teaches on a level one doesn't do every day. To actually have to think a little about issues. I find this enjoyable.

The poster a couple up is right however, smile a little, relax...we were debating issues and events that took place 65 years ago or so. Even the political mechanisms that gave birth to the Red Army and the political doctrine of the time are gone. We are discussing events that took place on a four year timeline under a Stalinist goverment based on communism that in itself was just a very very short blip in the long history of Russia. It is a matter of history, objectivity, academic discussion.
 
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#37
M.R.Maiornikov said:
P.S. And i love how your "References" are all written by people who really criticised the soviet regime. No wonder they will use anything to bring down the Red Army in the eyes of the westerners.
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Meridale may be down on the Soviet Regime and, let's face it, distaste for a regime which could discard the lives of millions of its own citizens even during peacetime is not an especially difficult philosophical position to adopt, but she never underestimates the suffering and achievements of the Soviet soldiers themselves and in fact even seeks to mitigate some of the more excessive behaviour (e.g. East Prussia). I suggest you actually read the books. If you can recommend any books in Russian which are written now, based on eye-witness acounts, rather than stuff collected by Politruks to keep their bosses happy, then I will be glad to read it.

And, having met Russian soldiers (i.e. recruits doing national service) today, I can tell you that they will drink whatever they can lay their hands on. This is not to knock the present Russian government, merely a statement of fact.

As for drunkenness of Soviet troops - it usually occurred after major battles, whereas there are often reports (given then, so i suppose it is possible it was written with the politruk in mind) of Germans going into battle drunk. Read Island of Fire for more details.

Just because someone says Russian troops liked (and like) to get drunk, does not, in any way denigrate their abilities as soldiers when the chips are down. I can understand your defensiveness - a lot of the comments about Soviet citizens that appear on these forums appear to have come through the filter of interviews with nazi officers by American intelligence officers and thence into popular folklore in the west, but Slyder's comments were, for me, light-hearted and pretty much on the mark.

Beevor and Merridale are both very much sympathetic to the huge losses suffered by the Soviet people. The only thing that you may not like is they are not restrained in allocating the blame for a many of the deaths to the Soviet Regime itself.

As regards the Red Army, the writers you mention are certainly not anti- the Red Army - they usually point out that its officer structure was pretty much butchered before the war and the army was then deliberately handcuffed at the outbreak of the war by Stalin's refusal to accept the reality of Barbarossa. An interesting scenario to consider would be what would be the outcome of a German invasion of USSR if Stalin and Hitler weren't around. Moot point of course 'cos Barbarossa prolly wouldn't have happened.
 
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#38
M.R.Maiornikov said:
...Or this will happen to you. Speaking from experience here :p

drunkmu4.png


Courtesy of: Red Orchestra.RU
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Well, I still think that the image is quite well done !
 
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#39
M.R.Maiornikov said:
Also the germans, during their Barbarossa offensive, often recieved the provisions of Shnaps (a german vodka if you will) and were quite happy consuming it. But it doesn't mean that the whole german army suffered from alcohol addiction.
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Are there internet sources for that?
And no I do not say that I do not believe you, I'm simply interested in that topic. :)
 
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#40
mat69 said:
Are there internet sources for that?
And no I do not say that I do not believe you, I'm simply interested in that topic. :)
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Here's from a fast search in google. Never actually searched it on internet but read in alot of books.

[FONT=verdana,][SIZE=-1]Alcohol consumption was encouraged[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=verdana,][SIZE=-1]Alcohol, the people's drug, was also popular in the Wehrmacht. Referring to alcohol, Walter Kittel, a general in the medical corps, wrote that "only a fanatic would refuse to give a soldier something that can help him relax and enjoy life after he has faced the horrors of battle, or would reprimand him for enjoying a friendly drink or two with his comrades." Officers would distribute alcohol to their troops as a reward, and schnapps was routinely sold in military commissaries, a policy that also had the happy side effect of returning soldiers' pay to the military.[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=verdana,][SIZE=-1]"The military command turned a blind eye to alcohol consumption, as long as it didn't lead to public drunkenness among the troops," says Freiburg historian Peter Steinkamp, an expert on drug abuse in the Wehrmacht. [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,][SIZE=-1]But in July 1940, after France was defeated, Hitler issued the following order: "I expect that members of the Wehrmacht who allow themselves to be tempted to engage in criminal acts as a result of alcohol abuse will be severely punished." Serious offenders could even expect "a humiliating death."[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,][SIZE=-1]But the temptations of liquor were apparently more powerful that the Fuehrer's threats. Only a year later, the commander-in-chief of the German military, General Walther von Brauchitsch, concluded that his troops were committing "the most serious infractions" of morality and discipline, and that the culprit was "alcohol abuse." Among the adverse effects of alcohol abuse he cited were fights, accidents, mistreatment of subordinates, violence against superior officers and "crimes involving unnatural sexual acts." The general believed that alcohol was jeopardizing "discipline within the military."[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,][SIZE=-1]According to an internal statistic compiled by the chief of the medical corps, 705 military deaths between September 1939 and April 1944 could be linked directly to alcohol. The unofficial figure was probably much higher, because traffic accidents, accidents involving weapons and suicides were frequently caused by alcohol use. Medical officers were instructed to admit alcoholics and drug addicts to treatment facilities. According to an order issued by the medical service, this solution had "the advantage that it could be extended indefinitely." Once incarcerated in these facilities, addicts were evaluated under the provisions of the "Law for Prevention of Offspring with Hereditary Diseases," and could even be subjected to forced sterilization and euthanasia.[/SIZE][/FONT]
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[FONT=verdana,][SIZE=-1]source:http://www.amphetamines.com/nazi.html

(I don't know how valid this source is, but i posted it anyways)
[/SIZE][/FONT]
 
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