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Submachine Gun Suggestions

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#41
Every major issue trickles down (well...up in this case :p) to the devs, if it doesn't just smack them in the face with it's obviousness right away (they're not dummies and they're not perfect either). They haven't/can't/usually won't go into exact details other than asking specific questions that help them more. The best way to get a dev to look at a thread is to keep the discussion civil and easy to read (at least, that's what experience with these boards show me).

My own few coppers, I think that the SMG recoil is fine. I think that if broken into mathematical amounts of force and muzzle climb and such like that (without taking into effect real-world count balances, like your arms adding weight and holding the weapon more steady and gravity) it would be like what we have in RO. Imagine the gun firing in space, if you will. Up and back and it stays in that position. Every gun has this effect, bolt rifles included. It's just much more noticable due to the SMGs rate of fire and thus lack of time to compensate between individual shots.


I think what mainly contributes to the perception that the recoil is too high is the view moving with the weapon, though. If that wasn't there, I honestly believe people could better 'feel' how much to adjust their mouse pull to compensate for the recoil, because they can see where the bullets are going more easily without getting jolted around.
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#42
Tak said:
My own few coppers, I think that the SMG recoil is fine. I think that if broken into mathematical amounts of force and muzzle climb and such like that (without taking into effect real-world count balances, like your arms adding weight and holding the weapon more steady and gravity) it would be like what we have in RO. Imagine the gun firing in space, if you will. Up and back and it stays in that position. Every gun has this effect, bolt rifles included. It's just much more noticable due to the SMGs rate of fire and thus lack of time to compensate between individual shots.
Click to expand...


"Without taking into effect...." Exactly. What we have now feels like the gun doesn't have gravity and the soldier holding it. It feels like it throws itself around with no regard for how a real person would be using it.

To clarify what I mean about the PPSh and the TT33, I made a short video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iy953shk-qE

For comparison, here's a vid of a real PPSh firing. Notice the difference?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VQpJj1TF7M&mode=related&search=
 
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#43
IncredibleGeek said:
"Without taking into effect...." Exactly. What we have now feels like the gun doesn't have gravity and the soldier holding it. It feels like it throws itself around with no regard for how a real person would be using it.
Click to expand...


Which is one way of doing realism based shooting. Personally, I believe that if you're going to go that route for weapon handling, the players view shouldn't be bound to where the weapon is going. I'm at odds with the current RO system in favor of something more TrueCombat: Elite or Infiltration style *as best I can remember, TC: E has free-aim IS as well* However, I still find the game overall enjoyable and it's (to me) a small matter of personal preference. If the devs prefer it the opposite my way in this case, they obviously will make it more with their way of thinking in mind :) Of course, it's possible full-fledge free aim IS is the ultimate goal but hasn't been able to be done up till this time, which would really give me supreme warm-fuzzies!


The problem is, both iron sights methods assume nothing. They leave all the work to the player, including compensation that normally are reflex actions and gravity. We automatically adjust to bring a gun back to the 'home' position, and gravity does a lot of the work for us. I prefer complete free aim because it (as I sorta hinted at, and I think others have to) allows you a more full 'picture' of how your gun is behaving, so you are better able to react and control it.
 
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#44
IncredibleGeek said:
"Without taking into effect...." Exactly. What we have now feels like the gun doesn't have gravity and the soldier holding it. It feels like it throws itself around with no regard for how a real person would be using it.

To clarify what I mean about the PPSh and the TT33, I made a short video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iy953shk-qE

For comparison, here's a vid of a real PPSh firing. Notice the difference?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VQpJj1TF7M&mode=related&search=
Click to expand...
Try shooting a real PPSh and not holding onto it tightly. Guess what, it will recoil like crazy. In real life, a skilled shooter like the one in your video has to do work in order to control the recoil. It takes strength and practice.

Guess what. It's the same thing in RO. It takes work to manage recoil. Holding down fire and not moving the mouse is analogous to a real unskilled person loosely holding onto the weapon. In RO it takes practice and coordination to move the mouse down as you fire. Simply put, it takes work. It's not like you have no control over how much recoil affects you.

That said, I think PPSh burst recoil could be lowered.
 
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#46
mat69 said:
No matter how skilled you are you will never fire the gun like the guy in that clip.

Has aynone tried my mutator? Thoughts? Ideas?
Click to expand...

I'll play around with it when im done browsing around here (and grab a copy of 7zip) :)

EDIT: ok, i've played around with it a bit, and it works, and does indeed help the problem a bit, but its not quite enough, it has made the PPSH a bit easier to use when crouched, but the wild horizontal recoil is still there, and its still a waste of bullets to fire it standing.

But this is a good start, and looking over the code, a nice piece of work!

So, i must ask, can i play around with your code a bit? i'd love to try some stuff out with it, and maybe make it cover more SMG's, i tried to build a Mutie like this some time back (but failed misserably, coulden't find a good way to replace weapon classes without crashing RO), my hope was to show people that unborking the SMG's will not destroy the game, and hopefully get a server or two to run it to prove it to people.
 
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#47
Kipper said:
Rameus, I don't care about the accuracy at this point. I'd like to see the SMGs become dangerous to people in front of you and not the birds flying above you.
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To be frank, I have absolutely NO problem using any of the SMGs in CQB. They take a bit of practice to get good with, much like (I would suspect) real world SMGs do.

The PPSH is extremely difficult to control while standing... I agree. I would accept the modification of the PPSH to SOMEWHAT lower it's standing recoil. But that's it. The other SMG's are fine.


I want to be honest here, though. If the PPSH 41 becomes too powerful, no matter how "realistic" that is or not, the game will suffer because of it. Any modification to these weapons will dramatically affect the balance of most maps.


As far as I'm concerned, the MP40, PPD and the '43 (name escapes me at the moment) are perfectly fine from a gameplay perspective. The PPSH recoil needs adjusting, but only slightly.
 
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#48
First of all it is NOT my code, this is the native code I modified a bit. I also copied the idea how to implement the changed uc-files from Beppo and Geo's mutator.

So yes you certainly can play around a bit, that was the original idea. Instead of talking we would have something to play and test with. :)

Edit: I do not understand that gameplay argument, because imo now many MPs are simply useless unless you have trained a lot.
Believe me if weapons need so much training to use them at such close distances they would not be used by armies on such a large scale.
It would be like if an army needs a weapon for long distances and chooses one with that you hardly hit something at long distances.
 
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#49
mat69 said:
First of all it is NOT my code, this is the native code I modified a bit, I copied the idea how to implement the changed uc-files from Beppo and Geo's mutator.

So yes you certainly can play around a bit, that was the original idea. Instead of talking would have something, so instead of "less" would could see results. :)
Click to expand...

Allright, i'll start an SMG experiment then, play around with them and see what happens, and hopefully, when im done playing, we'll have something interesting.
 
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#50
I forgot to add a value.
Add this to the XYFire.uc simply above the Ammo properties:

//** Projectile firing **//
Spread = 460 //default 460

Not sure what effect this has, I guess the lower the figure the more accuarte the bullets will be. I did not test it yet.
I guess it has to do with "SpreadStyle=SS_Random".

Edit: ok, you can find "Spread" in many files, this would be the appropiate for the PPSH to look what effects spread has: ROFastAutoFire.uc
 
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#52
The mouse being an extension of your body argument is false in the case of ROO. In reality, when you're firing a weapon, you have many different factors coming into play. ROO does not simulate this adequately. The recoil needs to be based on simulating a soldier holding his weapon properly.

And just for the record, I am proficient with SMGs, particularly the PPSh41 in game. So from a strictly gameplay point of view, I have no issues. But, I want a realistic game, and not one that artifically tries to balance things. Weapons are not always fair. And if fixing the SMGs so drastically changes the gameplay balance, I'll gladly play on the underdog team and use a rifle.
 
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#53
Agreed. I'm quite good with the PPSh, because I've learned how to use it right. Problem is, when I play Red Orchestra, I don't want to learn how to use it right. (i.e. playing right). I want it to simulate reality. There are plenty of other games I can play if I just want to play a game. I play Red Orchestra because it's closer to reality than any other WWII game I can think of. If it unbalances the game... Oh well. I seemed to do just fine against them in the mod when they were easier to control. I don't think it'll take too long for players to learn how to deal with an SMG.

Case in point: Playing Bohemian Paradise, armed with PPSh, I managed to kill 2 German SMGers, four Riflemen, ran out of ammo, and then based another SMGer with the butt. Then I took the chapel. It wasn't all that hard. I've learned how to use the SMG. What bugs me is that a few minutes later I couldn't hit a guy who was running towards me with an MP40. I stopped moving, laid my gun against a tree, fired 5 or 6 shots, all of them going exactly not where I wanted them, and then he fired thrice from the hip, killing me. The PPSh surely has a longer range then 10 feet, right? Then why is it so darned hard to hit anything past that range unless you lay down?
 
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#54
Well then, my mutator is done (tweaks pending, needs more playtest), it tweaks all SMG's slightly, and the PPSH quite a bit.

Changes? apart from the PPSH, i have barely touched the recoil amount, its toned down a wee bit, nothing serious, BUT, the random horizontal recoil is toned way down for all SMG's, this means that, whilst they still kick, its much more predictable, and you can learn to control it effectively!

Standing recoil has also been toned down, so whilst they fire much the same whilst crouched (apart from the lack of wild random sideways movement), they are a little less wild when standing, you will still be more accurate when crouched or prone, but for clouse range fighting, standing and aiming will do in a pinch now.

Shooting from hip is virtually unchanged, you should still aim your weapon if you want to hit anything thats not very nearby.

The PPSH has seen the most tweaking, and is a usefull weapon now on par with the PPD40, still kicks though, but much more predictable, and it can be fired standing with decent results at clouse range.


But, i need a place to host the file, i dont have any webspace myself (apart from a Photobucket account, but that wont host a .Zip file, only pictures), so if you have a bit of webspace (its a small file) and want to help me get this thing out the door, please fire me a PM with an e-mail addy i can send the file to :)
 
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#55
Well its not just the Ppsh-41 thats not shooting correctly.The Machinepistole-40 and the Strumgewehr-44(I know its an assualt rifle) as well as the others are under performing their real life counterparts.I was shooting the Machinepistole-40 at a shooting range map which should shoot around 100 meters(usually a bit higher than 100) effectively(although it was sighted fore 200m) I had trouble with 60meters. If thats not troubling enough for ya. I shot the Strumgewehr-44 and had a lot of trouble trying to hit 150meters although the Strumgewehr could shoot up to 700meters effectively and had adjustable iron sights up to 800meters (all this with out a scope) which was why they were replacing karabiner98ks (800meters effectivly without a scope) with Strumgewehr-44's!
It seems every game treats the Strumgewehr like a smg rather than a rifle!
The Ppsh-41 which should have no trouble with 150 meters did not hit the target at all( the ppsh-41 was accauarte up to 200meters)! I could barley shoot 100 effectively!
I would post how bad the Mg's faired but this is a smg post.-:(
 
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#56
I doubt that you could shoot 700m with the Stg 44 effectively look at current Assault Rifles in 5.56 and 7.62 and you will see why.

I guess the main problem are the small maps of RO, many maps offer only small distances to view, and the big maps are filled with tanks. I think that is why they created such weak SMGs, but I think it is possible to have better SMGs and still a balanced game.
 
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#57
Grobut said:
But, i need a place to host the file, i dont have any webspace myself (apart from a Photobucket account, but that wont host a .Zip file, only pictures), so if you have a bit of webspace (its a small file) and want to help me get this thing out the door, please fire me a PM with an e-mail addy i can send the file to :)
Click to expand...


http://fileden.com/

Thanks for putting this together. Maybe now we can get some real feedback from the Devs. :)
 
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#60
The StGw 44 features a 30-round curved magazine and could be fitted with all known accessories: it could use bayonets or silencers as well as the Schiessbecher rifle grenade device or the ZF 4 scope. The regular sights can be adjusted from 100m to 800m range.
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German research showed that the vast majority of infantry combat took place at ranges under 500m. It was therefore decided that a weapon was needed with a high rate of fire and the accuracy of a rifle within this range.
A cartridge which had been developed in the mid-1930s would be ideal for this weapon. This was the 7.92x33mm or ‘kurtz patrone’ (short cartridge). This meant that more rounds could be carried in a magazine of a given size and there would less weight to be carried by the infantryman.
However, Hitler was opposed to the development of new weapons firing pistol-calibre ammunition so the weapon was secretly developed under the guise of a ‘machine pistol’.
The result was the MP43 which was designed by Hugo Schmeisser at Haenel. This was a ground breaking new weapon, the predecessor of the Soviet AK47 and other later assault rifles.
Hitler ultimately found out about the weapon and it was then correctly designated as the Stg (Sturmgewehr – ‘Assault rifle’) 44. The Stg 44 had a 30 round curved magazine and had the capability to fire fully auto or single shots. This weapon gave the infantrymen considerably more firepower compared to their bolt-action rifles and the weapon became highly prized. By the end of the war almost half a million had been produced.
An odd invention that appeared in small numbers toward the end of the war was the Krummerlauf. This was a curved barrel and periscope arrangement that attached to the end of the Stg 44 barrel for shooting around corners.
Weight: 5.22kg
Length: 940mm
Cartridge: 7.92x33mm
Rate of fire: 500-600 rpm
Effective range: 700m
Click to expand...
http://www.dasheer.org.uk/pistols.htm
The experimental MKb's were developed by two german companies, Karl Walther (MKb.42(W)) and C.G.Haenel (MKb.42(H)). Both guns were intended as a replacement for submachine guns, bolt action rifles and, partly, light machineguns for front troops. Both guns were designed to fire intermediate (between rifle and pistol) cartridge, and have effective range of 600 meters or so. The 7.92mm Kurz
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- world of guns( http://http://216.239.51.104/search...g-44+effective+range&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=8
Effective range single shot 600 Meters
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http://http://216.239.51.104/search...-44+effective+range&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=25
Many moderen assualt rifles use a very small 5.56mm nato round which lacks power and range so its not really fair to compare it to its moderen ancestors.In fact the M-16 is disliked by the Us army because of its less than adaequate power.
 
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