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Submachine Gun Suggestions

Kipper

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 25, 2006
707
114
0
Connecticut, United States
The recoil of all of the SMGs is insanely off from their real life counterparts. I propose that recoil be significantly reduced and that Tripwire look into these weapons to model them more accurately in game. The accuracy of the weapons seems about right, but I cannot tell for sure. I can attest that an MP-40 is accurate to about 50m, maybe more, and, that it has little, if any recoil. I cannot say this for the other SMGs however.
 

piller

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 2, 2006
289
0
0
The only one I have a major problem with is the ppsh. If im commander with one I use a pistol on targets at the 10'-15' range because if Im not bracing my gun against something then the gun just skips over the target within about 3-4 bullets.

There is no controlled burst with that gun.
 
F

Field Marshal Rommel

Guest
can attest that an MP-40 is accurate to about 50m, maybe more, and, that it has little, if any recoil. I cannot say this for the other SMGs however.
The MP-40 was accurate up to 100 meters although very skilled Soliders could shoot it effectively a bit over 100meters. Yes it had very little recoil even in full auto. It was also quite accuarate.
 

Reddog

FNG / Fresh Meat
Dec 7, 2005
2,573
476
0
Australia
I can attest it's fairly accurate against a man sized target at 100m but beyond that it loses it's usefuleness rapidly.

I think the accuracy of the guns themselves is modelled fine, it's just the recoil on some of them which is off the charts.
 
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Cyion

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 14, 2006
217
0
0
38
London, ON Canada
Even though I hate being killed by people using submachineguns, I have to agree with what everyone is saying in this thread so far. I wish TW would make all guns perform the way they did in real life instead of trying to make guns even on both sides. Leave that for COD2 and other crap games.
 
F

Field Marshal Rommel

Guest
I have a theory that if everything is set to its realistic levels the Game would balance itself out. Oh and the Mp-40 was sighted for 200m as you can see n the game when you go to iron sights (thats that little 200 on the sights)although as I said effective range was 100+meters.
 

Rameusb5

FNG / Fresh Meat
Feb 23, 2006
871
1
0
How about we drop this since it's been discussed to DEATH and the Dev's haven't changed it.

They're NOT going to change it. So either adapt to the new SMGs (like I have), or play a different weapon.

And to the person who says that the MP40 was accurate out to 100 meters... you are smoking crack. Perhaps ONE bullet might be able to hit a man-sized target 100 meters away, but there is NO WAY in hell a burst could hit at that distance.
 

Plaid13

FNG / Fresh Meat
Apr 22, 2006
532
0
0
The guns had very little recoil so yeah a burst could hit the target a size of a man at 100 meters you start shooting him in the crotch and the next few hits would hit him in the gut chest and maybe head. but by the time the last round hits i dont think it would matter much anymore.

Yes it has been discussed to death but.. if we stop talking about it it maybe they will think we stopped cariing about it. if you dont want to see it anymore just dont read it anymore. its just that easy.

Personaly i think the PPSh is the worst as well but not just because it has the most recoil. but because it should be the most accurate and easy to control sub machine gun of the war. Its longer barral and the way the gun was designed with a semi gas break thing going on with the barral sheath was said to make it the most effective sub machine gun of the war at longer ranges not just up close. I would really love to see this in the game. Sure its not as effective as the stg and it shouldnt be at range since it was still a sub machine gun but it was the next best thing to a assult rifle. Its bad enough they totaly left out the selective fire on the gun even though you can see the switch for it in the trigger gaurd in the game when you drop the gun.
 

mat69

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 1, 2006
826
0
0
I have a theory that if everything is set to its realistic levels the Game would balance itself out.
That is not the case as you can see if you look at the reality. --> KV-1, T34 were both nearly undestroyable (excluding 8,8 cm Flak, close quater) at first.
The US had a big adavantage with their semi-atuo weapons, while their tanks lacked protection against most german tanks...
So you would have some maps that are very frustrating.

Personally I am for realism, the maps should balance the game imo not the weapons.
 

piller

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 2, 2006
289
0
0
I dont really care if things are balanced anyways. Thats part of realism. There are underdogs in any story.

The Russians and Germans didnt say, "Well we only have one PPSH so you can only use one STG - and artillery is out of the question."
 

Sight

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jul 10, 2006
149
142
0
My suggestions for the SMG's are :
  • Reduce the heavy recoil patterns while standing for the PPSH41.The ones where you fire a short burst and the gun goes crazy,especially with low fps.
  • Reduce the recoil while standing and beeing leaned(All SMG'S) !!! Something very important in my opinion,these weapons are made for close targets and urban environments=Leaning and peeking around corners and doors.Specially the PPSH41 has some recoil patterns that are unacceptable while standing and beeing leaned.Other SMG's defnitly do have too much recoil while standing and leaning aswell but the PPSH41 is the one where it s worst.All SMG's should be tone down while standing and beeing leaned.Of course some recoil patterns are fine but then others are very heavy and you ll never know what pattern you ll get.
  • Remove the heavy muzzle flashs and IS blocking smoke effects for all SMG's so one has a clear field of view while shooting(STG44 is the perfect example how it should be done).It s impossible to realise when an enemy is down on servers where death messages are off,even when the enemy is 10 meters away!!!As people who already shot some of these weapons posted,the huge amount of smoke and muzzle flash effect isn't realistic.Of course there needs to be some kind of effect so the shooting isn't to sterile,that s why i gave the STG44 as an example,you have a clear field of view when it comes to the IS and the effects are beneath it and it feels great to shoot this gun.
Many people have posted that they are worried about game balance, but the changes suggested by me aren't changeing the whole gameplay,they just make SMG's more believable.

The weaker recoils are already in the game,problem is that while standing there are also values that have a very high recoil as a result(Thats what i mean with patterns)Removeing these values and getting them more close to the weaker recoil values would solve the problem.

Thats also the reason why many people thought the SMG recoils got patched with the new release,they just got the weak recoil patterns as these get selected randomly by the game.

At the moment everybody just goes into a crouched position with weapons like the PPSH41.Makeing shooting more controllable while standing isn't changeing the game because it is already part of the game.

It just more realistic and authentic,these weapons are made for assaulting,often while not beeing crouched or prone,so shooting while just standing should be more controllable.

It shouldn t be too much work either as it s basically about removeing things(reduceing values)

THX for reading
 
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F

Field Marshal Rommel

Guest
Total production of MP 38 and MP 40 combined was 908,317.
Practical range was below 200m
http://www.geocities.com/pizzatest/panzerfaust
Caliber: 9x19mm Luger/Para
Weight: 4,7 kg loaded, 4,03 kg empty
Lenght (stock closed/open): 630/833 mm
Barrel lenght: mm
Rate of fire: 500 rounds per minute
Magazine capacity: 32 rounds
Effective range: ca. 100 meters
world.guns.ru/smg/smg33-e.htm

And to the person who says that the MP40 was accurate out to 100 meters... you are smoking crack. Perhaps ONE bullet might be able to hit a man-sized target 100 meters away, but there is NO WAY in hell a burst could hit at that distance.
I have sources and yes a burst should hit around 100 meters effectivly was it was very accaurate smg due to its long barrel something most modern smgs lack.Also a smg doesnt just automaticly lose power after 1 shot what kind of gun have you been shooting (american most likely-lol)?
T34 were both nearly undestroyable
The PanzerIII J's 50mm cannon could penetrate both.The high velocity 75mm on the Panzer IV G (more common than the f2) could also make easy work of them especially the T-34 which was updated to the 85 varity so it could compete with the 75mm round which was effective until the end of the war.However the F1 or any low velocity 75 could not penetrate the Kv-1 or the T-34 and the 50mm had a tendency to (if not fired at 90 degrees) deflect especially when using Apcr but that did not stop the Panzer III which was responsiable for a singnificant amount of T-34/76 kills and kv-1's.
 
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mat69

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 1, 2006
826
0
0
@Rommel well you forgot something, I wrote at first and that is what you can read in diaries, history books ...
There was no Panzer IV G at that time (winter '41, beginning of '42), nor the F2.
And only after the appearance of the T34 the L/60 was used on Panzer III, not before.
The Panzer III was able to destroy the T34 from the back or the flank - do not know the distance allthough - I really doubt that it could penetrate the front of the KV-1 with the L/45.

The high killing ratio of the germans were more a result of good training, more expierence, good communication - radio in german tanks, no radio in russian tanks (only later on) - and better tactics.
 

IncredibleGeek

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 18, 2006
178
5
0
My suggestions for the SMG's are :
  • Reduce the heavy recoil pattern while standing for the PPSH41.The one where you fire 2 shots and the gun goes crazy,especially with low fps.
  • Reduce the recoil while standing and leaning !!! Something very important in my opinion,these weapons are made for close targets and urban environments=Leaning and peeking around corners and doors.Specially the PPSH41 has 2 recoil patterns that are unacceptable when standing and leaning.
  • Remove the heavy muzzle flashs and IS blocking smoke effects for all SMG's so one has a clear field of view while shooting(STG44 is the perfect example how it should be done).It s impossible to realise when an enemy is down on servers where death messages are off.
Rest is fine,at least in my opinion and i am playing SMG's non-stop !
I agree with the first two points heavily. The recoil on the SMGs are just ****, pardon my language. For what's supposed to be a CQB weapon in the first place, why do I have such success taking SMGers with pistols/bayonets?


The last point, no so much; unless history proves otherwise, I'm fairly sure that the fire/smoke/blast from a short barreled SMG firing multiple bullets in rapid succession would block your view considerably, and would help balance things out in the long run. I fire handguns fairly often, and the muzzle flash on a short barreled weapon is pretty large, especially with less-than-optimal lighting conditions. On larger calibers, the blast can also be felt on the face and chest. Perhaps someone who has fired an SMG could help clear that up.
 

SchutzeSepp

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 23, 2006
1,540
8
0
35
i agree with mat69, the russians had better weapons, better and more tanks and more soldiers. but still it took them very long to finally win, and they had catastrophic losses in men and equipment. the reason for this is something you cant simulate in-game, it is called "incompetence"!!
historians say that the germans could resist the russians so long only because of their superior tactics and strategic abilities, the russians were led by officers that had mostly no knowledge of warfare at all, they just happened to be friends with stalin.
incompetence is something you can't incorporate in a game, you would have to put the worst soldiers with lowest scores on the russian team and give them those better weapons and tanks. if not, the rusky team would have an enormous advantage, wich was not the case in ww2
 

mat69

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 1, 2006
826
0
0
@seppdietr well I did not say that the russians had better weapons, it depends on the period of time and the different weapon classes you are looking at, I have to agree on your other thoughts although.
 

PermenentMarker

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 20, 2006
1,448
222
0
Montreal Quebec
www.coolit-online.com
I really think the PPD and the PPSH41 are in serious need to have a little less recoil.

And I also think the PPD is FAR TOO ACCURATE
I can prone and rest my gun...
I can kill people that seem to be over 100m away on the first or second attempt.

I would suggest giving them less exagerated recoil, and kill their accuratie
 
F

Field Marshal Rommel

Guest
Ah you meant initially sorry yes of course the first meeting between the T-34 and the Panzers yes it was a nasty shock for the axis although this crucial point in history which was meet with higher velocity and biger caliber guns later.
agree with mat69, the russians had better weapons, better and more tanks and more soldiers.
The Soviets had good tanks theres no denying that. In fact they had the some of the best allied tanks of the war but the Germans had the better tanks, better tactics, better infantry arms, and a superior airforce which made the Germans have the edge during the invasion of the Soviet Union and in the defense of their Reich. Look how fast they got to Leiningrad, Moscow, and Stalingrad. Not to mention even later the Germans underarmed and outnumbered held off the soviets at every turn as we can see in the 1944 Battle of Debrecen which had 80,000 Germans and Hungarians vs 260,000 Soviets armed with their top of the line tanks which outnumbered the Germans serverly (358 german tanks vs 2,312 Soviet tanks) the outcome of this battle was a complete German victory. Also at the start of Barabarossa the Soviets were mostly armed with light tanks such as the Bt-7, T-26, T-40 and T-60 which servered until after Kursk. These tanks are death traps for Panzers.
I also found that the PanzerIII H (1940) could penetrate the T-34 at 100 and 500 meters
AP
100m:54mm
500m:46mm
APCR
100m:96mm
500m:58mm
 
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mat69

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 1, 2006
826
0
0
Penetratiting 53mm, at 0 degrees, or what exactly do you mean?

Edit: You have to look at the availability of the Panzergranate 40 as well.
 
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F

Field Marshal Rommel

Guest
All my penetration values are at 90 degrees. So when the Panzer III is dircetly infront of any part of the T-34 it could penetrate 53mm which is way more than the T-34's 45mm armor(t-34s all of them had 45mm of armor all around doesnt include turret) so in other words 1 direct shot like that should kill, serverly mame (or killthe crew), the tank and or crew.
 
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