King Tiger/Ferdinand/Elefants/Panthers (Merged)

[[TW]schneidzekk]

Total failure?
I seem to remember the Gewehr 41 was a failed weapon. Yet it is being added to the game. lol

Anyway the number of Ferdinands/Elefants produced vs the number of enemy tanks they destroyed suggests that they were not failures.

The G41 M was a failure. The Walther version wasn't a bad weapon per se or a general failure, it had the same problems as it's soviet counterparts. Hard to maintain for the regular infantry soldier and it tended to jam when it wasn't cleaned.

The Ferdinand was a really advanced design and had great success in long range fighting or in defensive positions behind the lines.

Problem was that the Ferdinands had more technical problems than any other German tank and the Germans realized that it was a nice idea but it simply did not work out. Hence = failure.

 

[Field Marshal Rommel]

Which was why it was modified and renamed to the "Elefant tank".Which was pretty successful.The Ferdinand was only unsuccessful because of the lack of an mg-34 .Which made it vulnerable to Soviet anti tank infantry.

Overall, Elephant was a very advanced design, which proved to be a superb defensive weapon with an enormous firepower

"On the first day of action, we successfully engaged bunkers, infantry, field and anti-tank artillery positions. For three hours our guns (Ferdinands) fought in the cavalcade of enemy fire and proved to be immune to enemy fire !. In the evening of the first day, first enemy tanks were destroyed, while others retreated. Crews of field and anti-tank guns run away after firing few uneffective shots against our guns (Ferdinands). In first engagements our regiment (656 sPanzerjager Regiment) destroyed numerous artillery positions, bunkers as well as 120 enemy tanks..." - Report from July 19th of 1943 by Platoon commander Boehm.

-The Ferdinand tank

First saw action at Kursk. They were part of the Jagdpanzer Regiment 656 (Panzerj

 

[[TW]schneidzekk]

Yeah the surviving 48 were so successfull in their static long range bunker role, that they decided not to build a single new one.

 

[Field Marshal Rommel]

It took too many valuable raw materials to build them which Germany had little of especailly in 1944. Actually this was part of the reason the Panther G never fully replaced the Panzer IV H and J. There were 50 surviving Elefants 48 were grouped into schwere Heeres Panzerjager Abteilung 653. I'm not sure what happened to the other 2.

 

[[TW]schneidzekk]

So, they stopped building huge oversized tanks after the Ferdinand ?

No. They realized that the Ferdinand/Elefant wasn't worth the material.

 

[Field Marshal Rommel]

If that were so the Elefant would have been scrapped in favor of the Tiger II which it wasnt. They used it until the bitter end because it proved a worthy adversary for Soviet armor. You did read my quotes right? Well yes from 1944-1945 big tank production stopped or dropped significantly because of the lack of raw materials. Look at the Tiger I vs the TigerII production numbers! Like I said the Panther should have utterly replaced the Panzer IV but because it was also hard to produce and took alot of raw materials it didnt. Even the Panzerfaust which millions where made didnt reach its production quotas.

 

[[TW]schneidzekk]

The 48 (some say 50) Elefanten were converted Ferdinands, not new tanks. Wouldn't make sense to throw them away, because they did a good job as a bunker.

 

[Field Marshal Rommel]

as a "Bunker" well..... Yes I do not deny that the Elefant tank worked best as a defensive tank but it didnt do so bad as a "Breakout Tank". Look at its kills in the Kursk Offensive. If the Elefant had been in Kursk it would have done alot better because of the mg in its hull rather than a loose one they shot down the barrel. I do maintain however that both verisons are important! Especially the Ferdinand due to its potential to win kursk (as the German high command thought its "super weapons" would). It is essentually as legendary as the Tiger or Tiger II. So if its ineffective because of its vulnerablity towards infantry let it be so in game if added.

In October of 1943, 50 survivors were sent back to the factory for badly needed repairs and pre-planned modernization.-Achtung Panzer

During the winter of 1943-44 the remaining 50-WW 2 vehicles

In January 1944 the survivors (fifty tanks) were sent back to the Nibelungenwerke factory,-
http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Quarters/4635/tanks/elefant/elefant.htm

 

[[TW]schneidzekk]

O.k. let's think about that: We add it to a Kursk map, it a) breaks down or b) gets raped by infantrie. We cannot model ranges where it dominated the soviet tanks. So, imagine what would be going on here.

We do not have the Italian theater in RO, so where else can we use them?

Well there were 2 or 3 used by the Kampfgruppe Ritter in the south of Berlin, but we do not have a map for that scenario. Maybe in the future..

Seriously, don't you think that there are other nice tanks we should add first?

 

[Field Marshal Rommel]

Yeah I can think of two tanks which should be added as soon as possible.The Panzer IV H and Stug III G.
Im not saying this tank should be added now Im just saying it should be added later perhaps have it as a project for down the road or on the list of tanks to add but it shouldnt be a priority right now. We dont even have official kursk maps yet. So yeah you are right there are other priority tanks to add rather than this at this moment.
I suggest option (well if it breaks down so should the Tiger I)"b" should be added I have no illusions about the Ferdinand's vulnerablity to infantry.Well really an 88mm gun dominates at most ranges after all it was the German's "trump card".The Elefant was used on the ever expanding Eastern front in 1944 and in the south of Berlin in 1945 although in kongs platz there seems to be some elefant wreckage around.

 

[Zoring]

The only significance the elefent had was to slow down the deployment for the Kursk battle. A historical foot-note not an important tank in the slightest.

 

[ROMMEL34]

The only significance the elefent had was to slow down the deployment for the Kursk battle. A historical foot-note not an important tank in the slightest.

Ferdinands from sPzJagAbt 653 destroyed some 320 Soviet tanks and lost 13 Ferdinands, while the 656 sPanzerjager Regiment destroyed some 502 Soviet tanks and 100 other vehicles

So 320 + 502 + 100 vehicles = 922 Soviet vehicles.
Without the "nonimportant" Ferdinand/Elepant tank the Soviets would have 922 vehicles that they could have used against the Germans. Keep in mind that 90 or so Ferdinand/Elepant tanks were produced and they destroyed 922 Soviet vehicles. 90 vs 922. So in conclusion it is very important tank.

 

[[TW]schneidzekk]

Considering more than 57,000 T-34 were built till 45, not counting the other vehicles, it actually means not alot.

 

[Field Marshal Rommel]

It is when u think of the odds an overwhelming amount of Soviets vs some 90 Ferdinand tanks.Thats bloody incredible!
All that with infantry blowing them up,the thick mud (beacuse of rain and the thaw),and the mine fields as well as several ISU-152's engaging them.

 

[ROMMEL34]

It is when u think of the odds an overwhelming amount of Soviets vs some 90 Ferdinand tanks.Thats bloody incredible!

Well said

Seriously, don't you think that there are other nice tanks we should add first?

Quoting myself from page one:

I am not suggesting this tank be added right this second after all we don't even have any official Kursk maps. I'm mearly suggesting a crucial tank that must be added in the future by the devs.

 

[Tak]

A historical foot-note not an important tank in the slightest.

Best point made the entire thread.


I could make the FASTEST car on earth. Ever. And it would be super safe. It would litterally be impossible to crash. But if it costs way too much to build, and breaks down constantly, who gives a **** how fast and safe it is?

Hilter (or his engineers, or someone) was obsessed with huge, unmanagable tanks. The eli is one of them. If the ultimate goal of a German empire had been achieved and the engineers had ulimited resources/time/etc, THEN maybe it would have been an idea worth pursuing. Other than that though, no matter how many tanks it killed, with the amount of time and resources that went into making and maintaining those 40 and change tanks did more harm than good to the big picture.

By all means, though, please carry on the discussion, I always love reading up about history's obscure footnotes

 

[Heinz]

the Soviet Union is an obscure footnote right about now, isn't it? well, maybe just an afterthought, not a footnote.

As has been pointed out above, the Elephant, though perhaps interesting, was statistically irrelevant in WWII, by all measures.

Carry on.

 

[Field Marshal Rommel]

Yes, but it was important and legendary. As Ive stated which is why it should be added.Its a little like the Tiger II only about 400 were made yet everyone knows about the Tiger II and they want it in game.The Ferdinand along with the Panther were supposed to bring the Soviet Union to their knees. The Soviets themselves during Kursk feared it and used desperate measures to destroy them.Example the use of the ISU-152 against it. So what if only 90 were made these 90 made a historical impact in the war.

I could make the FASTEST car on earth. Ever. And it would be super safe. It would litterally be impossible to crash. But if it costs way too much to build, and breaks down constantly, who gives a **** how fast and safe it is?

The Tiger I and the Panther took alot to build ,maintain,and broke down.
Really every tank breaks down eventually.

 

[FatPartizan]

Ferdinand's efficiency a question of belief. Whether you believe?

 

[Field Marshal Rommel]

lol- nicely put.