Beta Map [Beta 1] RO-Berezina

[Mormegil]

Slyk,

I'm glad you're considering our feedback.

I think one of the issues of increasing reinf / lower the time is the disparity between typical pub games and organized games.

When both teams use teamwork, it's pretty even. When both teams lack teamwork, I feel the advantage goes to the Germans. So tough call. Ultimately, it's your map and everything's up to you. Plus I'm sure you've playtested this more than anyone else around here.



I'd just like to add that while playing with a mostly-teamplaying group yesterday as Russian, even with falling back, we'd run out of reinforcements 5-10 minutes before times up.

It's too bad ROStats isn't running, it would be nice to get a larger sample of wins/losses on this map.

Anyways, great work! Looks and plays amazingly.

 

[Bigwig]

This is definitely my favourite map so far, you guys did a REALLY excellent job. Congrats! Here are my criticisms, for what they're worth:

-I find that the map is still weighted a little too much toward tank combat. This can be frustrating for infantry at times, especially with the size of the map. Less tanks, more infantry I always say.

-The beginning of the round is rough. I understand the concept of blitzkrieg, but having the Germans start within spitting distance of the first objectives makes it all a little pointless IMHO. If anything it's disheartening and frustrating for the Russians to lose the first 2 or 3 objectives barely before they can select a class or leave the spawn, and I don't see what this adds to the gameplay. It's just not very fun. If the allies had even a little more time to set up a defense this could be avoided. As of right now the whole first part of the map is barely used as it gets steamrolled by the Germans in under 2 minutes.

-The village CP area is a nightmare for infantry, and not for the right reasons. The flimsy little fences offer no cover or concealment, but since you can't climb over them (a feature RO sorely needs) the infantry are forced to run all the way around them into killzones on the streets. Being killed because you somehow can't mantle over a puny stick fence or sandbag bunker is a frustrating problem with RO maps in general. Adding different infantry routes through the plank fences separating the houses could help, or just adding more openings in the streetside fences.

-Annoying bulletproof bushes around the treeline need to go.

-I'm another crazy guy that thinks snipers don't really add much to the map.

 

[Monkwarrior]

This is definitely my favourite map so far, you guys did a REALLY excellent job. Congrats! Here are my criticisms, for what they're worth:

-I find that the map is still weighted a little too much toward tank combat. This can be frustrating for infantry at times, especially with the size of the map. Less tanks, more infantry I always say.

-The beginning of the round is rough. I understand the concept of blitzkrieg, but having the Germans start within spitting distance of the first objectives makes it all a little pointless IMHO. If anything it's disheartening and frustrating for the Russians to lose the first 2 or 3 objectives barely before they can select a class or leave the spawn, and I don't see what this adds to the gameplay. It's just not very fun. If the allies had even a little more time to set up a defense this could be avoided. As of right now the whole first part of the map is barely used as it gets steamrolled by the Germans in under 2 minutes.

-The village CP area is a nightmare for infantry, and not for the right reasons. The flimsy little fences offer no cover or concealment, but since you can't climb over them (a feature RO sorely needs) the infantry are forced to run all the way around them into killzones on the streets. Being killed because you somehow can't mantle over a puny stick fence or sandbag bunker is a frustrating problem with RO maps in general. Adding different infantry routes through the plank fences separating the houses could help, or just adding more openings in the streetside fences.

-Annoying bulletproof bushes around the treeline need to go.

-I'm another crazy guy that thinks snipers don't really add much to the map.

Agree on all points

 

[Oi!Oi!Oi!]

I agree with Bigwig's points as well.

The map favors mostly tanking, sniping, and PTRDing. All the other classes are somewhat less interesting to play, even the mgs which are too innacurrate for the range most battles take place at. Shooting with them only attracts the tank or sniper's attention and gets you killed.

 

[Mike_Nomad]

I've been reading the comments with interest because of both the map and the author. In my opinion, the map is excellent aside from a few minor final adjustments. Of course, the author Slyk has a strong proven track record in map making thus, my confidence in his original design and final product. After having been able to both host and play the map, all I can say is BRAVO!

Slyk, regardless of what's said, as it seems just about every negative comment is emanating from "small map/infantry only" enthusiasts, please stick to your original concept and design. I have yet to encounter a custom map that has engendered such excitement, numbers of game players and hours of sheer fun. You are, without a doubt, on the right track with a highly successful map.

 

[Ron]

Yea Slyk like mike was saying people can give as much feedback as they want but in the end its your map and you are your own man plus you made the map so if your gonna listen to anyone i suggest you listen to yourself cos its pretty evident that you know more about making an excallent tactical map then almost everyone here.
However i do strongly urge you to stick with your original concept of making a tactical map where teamwork is a key and not try to make it pub friendly.

 

[Helmut_AUT]

I agree with Bigwig's points as well.

The map favors mostly tanking, sniping, and PTRDing. All the other classes are somewhat less interesting to play, even the mgs which are too innacurrate for the range most battles take place at. Shooting with them only attracts the tank or sniper's attention and gets you killed.

You should add a "IMHO" when you're starting your opinion...and that's what it is, because other people have different opinions.

It's been a long while since I had as much playing infantry like I had on this map in the Engineer Class. You can ride around in the Halftracks into enemy flanks, clean out buildings, assault trenches, and most important, blow up enemy tanks when you can sneak up to them.

I dunno how it plays as normal rifle yet, but likely not bad either. Definitly can be fun as infantry IMHO.

 

[Monkwarrior]

Adding IMO is a bit silly, after all this whole forum is made of opinions

 

[=GG= Mr Moe]

....
I dunno how it plays as normal rifle yet, but likely not bad either. Definitly can be fun as infantry IMHO.

I have played Russian more often, and for them, I think this is a great map for a Rifleman (of which I am most of the time). As long as you have a nearby tank and/or someone with an AT Rifle to stop those pesky halftracks, a Rifleman can pick off many of the other advancing Germans.

I have tried a few times as a German Rifleman, it is definately harder since many times you have to advance in the open. Luckily the Germans have more reinforcements.

 

[Slyk]

Keeping in mind the variety of players, playing styles, and what else is out there, I will attempt to answer as best I can here. The only thing the feedback, in general makes me want to do is release Beta2 earlier so that 75% of the feedback becomes moot.

This is definitely my favourite map so far, you guys did a REALLY excellent job. Congrats! Here are my criticisms, for what they're worth:

-I find that the map is still weighted a little too much toward tank combat. This can be frustrating for infantry at times, especially with the size of the map. Less tanks, more infantry I always say.
+ Without removing all tanks, I can't see a point in fewer. Yes, at times in B1 you can have three or four running around, but that doesn't last long. The insertion of the BT7 and removal of one KV over most of the map will change things. The BTs and KVs will be mixed depending on the region of the map being used. Expect 2 KVs at the end for defense etc.

-The beginning of the round is rough. I understand the concept of blitzkrieg, but having the Germans start within spitting distance of the first objectives makes it all a little pointless IMHO. If anything it's disheartening and frustrating for the Russians to lose the first 2 or 3 objectives barely before they can select a class or leave the spawn, and I don't see what this adds to the gameplay. It's just not very fun. If the allies had even a little more time to set up a defense this could be avoided. As of right now the whole first part of the map is barely used as it gets steamrolled by the Germans in under 2 minutes.
+ Exactly. That is the point. What I originally was aiming for was a two-flank approach to the map, explained elsewhere in this thread and the main 'Preview' thread, which you can read if you wish. The entire point is to not hold that ground, but rather slow down the assault. I have honestly seen fairly full servers hold the Germans up here for upwards of 10 minutes. If the Germans can't get their crap in order, the KVs will be there in about 2 mintues and then it is hell on them. This, in my opinion, forces teamwork for second one for both teams. This is a design concept.

-The village CP area is a nightmare for infantry, and not for the right reasons. The flimsy little fences offer no cover or concealment, but since you can't climb over them (a feature RO sorely needs) the infantry are forced to run all the way around them into killzones on the streets. Being killed because you somehow can't mantle over a puny stick fence or sandbag bunker is a frustrating problem with RO maps in general. Adding different infantry routes through the plank fences separating the houses could help, or just adding more openings in the streetside fences.
+ Exactly. As I have said before about fences, be thankful that these are all that I put in. I have modified B2 with more cover around the village, not a lot, but some. I have looked at more holes in the walls also and am still undecided. I don't want easy 'rushes' to the cap zone. Why should everything have to be easy? I may make more holes, but I will not remove them.

-Annoying bulletproof bushes around the treeline need to go.
+ Being a UT mapping noob, my mistake not making them non-solid. Ofcourse, now you can sit blindly on the far side of one and shell the crap out of the guys on the other side....with a spotter this is rather lame.

-I'm another crazy guy that thinks snipers don't really add much to the map.
+ Probably not removing them. Only a couple people saying 'no snipers'. Yeah, the chaff people, but it's part of the game. Don't sit still. Change your tactics. I don't want to alienate a whole group of players from the map.

I have played this in every role for every side and personally know it could and will improve. B2 will show that. From an infantry point of view, I think a lot of (no saying all) complaints come from guys who love 'Odessa' and that style map. I hate that map. I would rather hoof around on 'Bonderova' than play 'Odessa' for five minutes. No map is perfect. No map appeals to everyone equally.

Not to be a jerk, but I make maps the way I want to make them and then try to dial them in to satisfy as much of the player base as I can without compromise and without dumbing them down to every 12 year old spray punk. Just a vent, there. But true. Everything about the gameplay is just about right where I thought it could be nearly 18 months ago when I released the original version of this map for CoDUO. As we were in development IB, Lex and I discussed how cool this concept could be for RO and once RO went retail, I had to try to convert it.

Overall I think for beta1, I got a lot right, and I think the majority of the player base thinks so too. Beta2 within a few days and then we'll see where we go from there. I evaluate all input. You'll see that in B2. If certain aspects don't appeal to everyone, then so be it. Thanks to all for taking the time to leave input, I do consider it all in regard to the 'vision'.

 

[Uffz_Huib]

My 2 cents:

Yesterday I read most of this thread and after that played it for the first time
I took the role of Russian rifle man. I liked the map A LOT. Knowing about the reinforcements I was concerned with my life throughout the round. Nevertheless I got killed about 5 times (twice by German arty, twice by German SMGers infiltrating the trench and once from long range, thus I was never killed by a tank or MG fire). I scored a mere 15 points of which 5 were collected by supplying an MG. The rest was kills: most by rifle at long range, one with a AT rifle grabbed from a dead comrade (took out a Panzer III), one with a grenade and one hipshot at close range. The latter were with the only daring action I undertook to clear the left trench in the second line with the help of a comrade. I must admit I was lucky to kill both Germans that had infested the trench. The teamwork was lovely: although we lost. We fell back to the east bank with about 11 minutes to go and nearly without reinforcements. The Germans still had more than 40%. 3 minutes before the end we succumbed to the Germans infiltrating the trench on the east bank. My last life I lost when I was mowed down by an SMGer, although I got the first shot... I missed.

 

[Hamburgerphil]

Enough with the complaints!

This thread needs more kick ass pictures!


Heres when me and two other guys set up a battery of ptrd anti-tank rifles.



Some ptrd tank kills.







The three steps to killing an enemy tank with a ptrd:

Approach from the side.


Set up.


The kill.







And this is what happens when you nail an infantryman in the head. It's the first time I've seen decapitation in-game.

 

[Mormegil]

I've got a question on the "pillbox" KV-1s. I'm speaking of the immobilized KV-1s in the field near the bridge objective.

Sometimes it's there, sometimes it's not.

When does it show up? It didn't appear to be there at the start of a second round, and didn't appear as objectives were capped and the German spawn moved up.

Was this a glitch? Should it have been there at the start of the round?

 

[Mike_Nomad]

I've got a question on the "pillbox" KV-1s. I'm speaking of the immobilized KV-1s in the field near the bridge objective.

Sometimes it's there, sometimes it's not.

When does it show up? It didn't appear to be there at the start of a second round, and didn't appear as objectives were capped and the German spawn moved up.

Was this a glitch? Should it have been there at the start of the round?

No glitch.... after having read your post, I went into Berezina and played a full game as a German. Did all the Cap points. However, as I did each one I went back and checked the "Pillboxed" KV1.. it was there each and everytime I checked. After capping east bank I went back in and did the entire thing again as a Russian... same series of events and same exact results.

You sure you were in Berezina? J/K.

The only thing I didn't do was shoot the thing and destroy it. That might be the reason I saw it all the time and you didn't. Somebody in your game shot it.

 

[Oi!Oi!Oi!]

Fix the German spawn when they have to attack the second line.

The halftracks should spawn behind the hill, not on top of it where Russian tanks can destroy them as soon as they start moving.

Also, 1/2 or 2/3 of the German infantry spawn on the south part of the 1st line, far away from the halftrack. they should spawn closer to transport.

 

[Slyk]

I've got a question on the "pillbox" KV-1s. I'm speaking of the immobilized KV-1s in the field near the bridge objective.

Sometimes it's there, sometimes it's not.

When does it show up? It didn't appear to be there at the start of a second round, and didn't appear as objectives were capped and the German spawn moved up.

Was this a glitch? Should it have been there at the start of the round?

It does not respawn. Just starts the round immobile. I sank it in water and craters for B2 so it will look like it is stuck in the mud... just need to find a good water texture to make it look mucky.

Beta 2 might be out on Friday, late evening. I would like to see it make a full-weekend of gaming. I have wasted another four hours on bot pathing. It looks bad. I ripped them all out. Everything is virutally perfect path wise but the idiots just idle around in circles so either I'm an idiot or I'm an idiot. No bots for any of you. Sorry.

 

[Heinz]

don't waste anymore time on the bots man. so secondary, it's not even secondary; it's "thirdary"

for the first time, ever, on the RTR server last night, I logged on and could not select a tanker spot. . server was full. was sweet.

 

[Makhno [Anarchist]]

Well, I just wanna say thanks - this map is a masterpiece, one of the best designed maps I ever saw!
Keep up the good work.

 

[Oi!Oi!Oi!]

don't waste anymore time on the bots man. so secondary, it's not even secondary; it's "thirdary"

for the first time, ever, on the RTR server last night, I logged on and could not select a tanker spot. . server was full. was sweet.

You wimp! Real tankers take rifleman class and then carve themselves a tank using their bayonets.

 

[Divinehammer]

I think that this has been asked but The Russian underground trenches need some lighting help it is absoulutely maddening trying to get out of there I was stuck for minutes one time not good if you are holding the PTRD. Maybe you can up the ambient glow on those brushes abit and achieve the dim effect you are going for it looks good around the lights though. Spawn protections also get my vote in a few places everyone hates a spawn camper sadly I saw alot of that last night. Cant wait for B2 keep it up.