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T60 is getting on my nerves

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Helmut_AUT

Grizzled Veteran
Dec 14, 2005
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#1
Sorry, but my history books didn't tell me T60 was a mighty heavy super tank. But from the performance in this game, you wonder why Sovjets ever built T-34.

Tonight at hedgehog, I often landed the first hit with my 50mm AP ammo. But the T60, everytime, shrugged it off and with two or three 20mm shots, kills the PzIII. Before you can even reload.

In the end no one on german team was playing Tank crew anymore because it was pointless. T60 can't be killed but can kill PzIII with just three to four shots?

I'm not a bad tanker...even back in the mod me and my teammate would often be top scoring tank crew. But this is absolutly unreal.

Oh please, fix this thing. This is unbelivable.
 
#2
The Panzer III wasn't much to it's name against tanks. It was a more effective infantry support .

*article from wikipedia*

The Panzer III A through C had 15 mm of slightly sloped homogenous steel armor on all sides, with 10mm on the top and 5mm on the bottom. This was quickly determined to be insufficient, and was upgraded to 30 mm in the D, E, F, and G models, with the H model having a second 30 mm layer of face-hardened steel applied to the front and rear hull. The J model had a solid 50 mm plate on the front and rear, while the L, M, and N models had an additional layer of 20 mm of armor on the front hull. This additional frontal armor meant the Panzer III during 1941 and 1942 was impervious to most British and Russian anti-tank guns at all but close ranges when shot at from the front. The sides were still vulnerable to many enemy weapons including anti-tank rifles.

The unusually heavy rear armor of the Panzer III was a weight penalty that was not commensurate with its combat value. Although several tanks of the early war period had heavy rear armor, in general the design trend during the war was to thin the side and rear armor as much as possible, concentrating heavy armor in the frontal quadrant. For example, the Panther tank had very heavy frontal armor but thin side and rear armor.


The Panzer III was intended to fight other tanks and a high-velocity 5cm gun was initially called for. But the infantry were being equipped with the 3.7 cm anti-tank gun, and it was felt that in the interest of standardisation the tanks should carry the same. As a compromise, the turret ring was made large enough to accommodate a 50 mm gun should a future upgrade be required. This single decision would later assure the Panzer III a much prolonged life in the German army.
The early models (Ausf A to Ausf E, and a few Ausf F) were equipped with a short barrelled 37 mm gun which proved somewhat satisfactory during the campaigns of 1939 and 1940 but later models (Ausf F to Ausf M) were upgraded with the heavier 50 mm KwK38 L/42 and 50 mm KwK39 L/60 guns in response to increasingly better armed and armoured opponents.
By 1942, the Panzer III had become obsolete as a main battle tank and the decision was made to continue production as a support vehicle. The Ausf N model mounted a low-velocity 75 mm KwK37 L/24 gun - the same gun used by the early models of the Panzer IV. This tank was used for infantry support as a replacement for the StuG III assault gun, which was by then mainly used as tank destroyer.
All early models up to and including the Ausf F had two 7.92 mm machine guns mounted coaxially with the main gun, and a 7.92 mm machine gun in the hull. Models from the ausf G and later had a single coaxial MG and the hull MG.
 
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#6
My main question basically is why does the T60 driver never need to angle his tank?

Okay, so depending on which PzIII they modelled (G or H?) the 20mm ammo may penetrate the front. But then my 50mm AP should also penetrate the damn T60.

Three times tonight, I shot the T60 right trough the hull. All you get is a bit of smoke, and then it turns the turret and grills you with three or four fast-reloading shots while your next 50mm round isn't ready. Of course if you happen to hit the turret (only 30mm of welded plate) the game will over-rate the angled "bonus" and make your shot bounce three times out of four.

We need one-shot kills for these little bastards. It's unbelivable to see how a map like Hedgehog suffers from the overrating of "angled" armor.
 
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#8
Some detailed information on the TNsH 20mm gun used in the T60:
http://battlefield.ru/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=104&Itemid=49&lang=en

Even at 50mm range it only penetrates 35mm of armor. At 100 meters (a common RO engagement distance it seems) it's down to 28mm according to this data.

It should be able to penetrate occasionally...yes...but not all the time, with every shot.

Slowly I really start to think we're seeing a hits-point based damage model here. Because every single shot of the 20mm gun is insufficient in itself to put a PzIII out of the fight, but the accumulation of damage ends with a furious explosion.

At the same time, the exagerated "bonus" for angled armor makes the T60 much more invulnerable than it should be. Even at a slight angle, it's just 25mm steel plate.

To finish with another quote from battlefield.ru:

T-60 tanks were the core of the 1st Tank Corps (commander - Major-General M. E. Katukov). In the summer of 1942, this corps, as an element of the Bryansk Front, was engaged in defensive battles near Voronezh. The 1st Tank Corps and the 16th Tank Corps were combined as a single unit. After the heavy battles, this unit was in a desperate situation. Katukov relates in his memoirs:
"The Germans attacked us continuously. They tried to find a weak point in our defense. After several attempts they found it, and German infantry was able to make a breakthrough through our first lines of defense where we didn't have proper artillery coverage. It was a precarious situation, because the Germans continued their attacks to cut off and destroy our forces.
The German forces attacked along the whole front line, thus there weren't any available reserves. I had only two T-60 light tanks in operational reserve, but whom could stop these "armored miniatures" with their 20 mm guns


They were useless against German tanks, but they could be used successfully against enemy infantry and usually caused heavy losses among them. This happened at both Mtzensk and Moscow.
Click to expand...
 
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#11
Helmut_AUT said:
Sorry, but my history books didn't tell me T60 was a mighty heavy super tank. But from the performance in this game, you wonder why Sovjets ever built T-34.

Tonight at hedgehog, I often landed the first hit with my 50mm AP ammo. But the T60, everytime, shrugged it off and with two or three 20mm shots, kills the PzIII. Before you can even reload.

In the end no one on german team was playing Tank crew anymore because it was pointless. T60 can't be killed but can kill PzIII with just three to four shots?

I'm not a bad tanker...even back in the mod me and my teammate would often be top scoring tank crew. But this is absolutly unreal.

Oh please, fix this thing. This is unbelivable.
Click to expand...

Lol, not sure if it was against me driving and a guy from 20-something clan as a gunner. We did give PzIII on that map good runaround and then after a while noticed there were no tank class used by Axis at all. We did get blow up few times by PzIII though because we were bit careless.

TBH, T-60 is a joke, but no worse than when you shoot SU-76 with StUG from less than 50 metres behind and it survives :) Happened to me on Rakowice. I drove right behind SU-76 with my StUG, aimed and hit it squarely to rear. Thing starts smoking and gunner bails out, 2nd shot then destroys the SU. Great realism :D

Well, we all know vehicles are screwed at the moment so no point to start new post about them every day...
 
Upvote 0
#12
EvilAmericanMan said:
The SU-76 is also wayyyy buggy. I've seen one get shot about 10 times from a Tiger and all of the Tiger's shots bounced off. The SU wasn't even angled. That's bull****! In real life, well the crews often called it "Little *****" or "Naked-ass Ferdinand." You can see that in real life it was cheaply made, but pretty crappy.
Click to expand...
What map has a tiger against the SU-76?

But I do get your point. I don't think that it's just the SU-76 ... I think it's the increased deflection and odd things that have happened since the beta.
 
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#16
Hyperion2010 said:
We arent worried about the faust, we're worried about the fact that it (and the su) deflect very large AP shells WAY too often.
Click to expand...

I just haven't seen this happen. I can tell you that Ramm had this to say at the Steam forums regarding the tanks.

http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=426061

In it he responds to the "This really needs to be sorted out" post from a user who believes the tanks are console level.
 
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#17
Well, the tank model IS buggy. Devs have claimed it is impossible to destroy tanks with grenades; this is incorrect. Satchels seem to do an inordinate amount of damage, etc.

So either the T-60 is facing really crappy German armor or it is overpowered. I think its probably the later, due to the same issue as with the grenades. (lots of tiny hits adding up in an excessive manner)
 
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