MG needs it's presence to be greater
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Can't be compared Jippo.
If you've already got your enemy's heads down, then directing a little extra noise their way is done purely to make sure they stay down. That is the purpose of what he is doing, he is laying down a few extra bursts before he advances in order to desceive the enemy into thinking that sticking their heads up now would be a very bad idea - and contrary to what you're saying this works very well in practice, as for all the enemy knows he could still have his sights fixed on their position just as before when he forced them to duck for cover.
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Are you really going to argue about that? Really....
Supression isn't effective if it is not accurate. To supress rounds must pass very close to the soldier. Firing from hip is not accurate thus: firing from the hip does not create supression. Only thing the guy achieves here is making himself a target
What you are saying is just a load of bollocks... Absurd.
Are we talking real life or what here? Trying to "supress" someone like that only gets the gunner dead.
Supression isn't effective if it is not accurate. To supress rounds must pass very close to the soldier. Firing from hip is not accurate thus: firing from the hip does not create supression. Only thing the guy achieves here is making himself a target
What you are saying is just a load of bollocks... Absurd.
Are we talking real life or what here? Trying to "supress" someone like that only gets the gunner dead.
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Mg34
Mg34
RO2 is a game! STHU and just enjoy it while the bugs are not running rampant!
If the hip firing MG haters would only bother to look in the preWW2 and WW2 (early war) MG34 and small arms manual they'll see via text, photos and drawings that the MG34 gunners were instructed to fire a number of ways, one of which was from the hip in an advance - which is what you see in the combat footage. This would possibly get the naysayers to halt sie klapper, but I doubt it, LOL.
Firing from the hip is NOT accurate and not easy to do in real life, nor in game, however it is simply one of many ways that one can fire the MG34. If you want accuracy fire from a prone position via the bipod or lafette tripod - there is where you'll rake havoc and not waste as much ammunition. If on the move, you can and they did fire from the hip using the issued leather MG sling and 50 round assault drum (this is what the drum was designed for and how it got it's name).
It is not however realistic to have this saddle drum on an infantry MGer, the saddle drums were for motorcycle combos and aircraft. Nor is the 250 round belt that you can run and carry, as in real life your A gunner could be running along side or behind you carrying one to two cans of ammo, of which each can could hold up to 250 rounds.
Firing the DP from the hip is another question - I've not seen this in any wartime footage, WWII, Korea or Vietnam (as it was also used by the North Koreans, Red Chinese, VC and NVA). This doesn't mean you can't do it, it is after all an LMG and you can hip fire and move with most any LMG, some are simply more difficult to do so like the Browning M1919A4 or M1919A6. Others like the Bren and or Type 96/97/99 are quite easy to fire from the hip and move with - you'll not get accuracy, but if you're on the recieving end you'd be smart to keep your head down LOL!
From firing live, I found it almost impossible to fire the DP in another other mode than prone and via the bipod as the drum was so heavy that to move caused the drum to move, which caused jams and misfeeds - this was from a 60+ year old gun and well worn drum, so it didn't catch or lock as a new one would have in 1942/43. Firing the MG34 live with the assault drum was a joy, but you of corse had to follow and duplicate the stances shown in the MG34 small arms manual. My rounds were all over the place and completely not accurate, yet again if an enemy was on the recieving end I am sure that they would have said Oh shize and kept their heads down until I had shot all my rounds and then shot me or tossed a grenade at me.
You all can go on and on about accuracy and what is period/correct, but if you do so you might seriously want to study some wartime weapons manuals as then you will see wot was wot ol' bean
Personally the firing of LMGs from the hip is not the worst in this game, the fact that on any given map you can see more MP42s than were ever made (lol) being used is what I find completely unrealistic. I doubt that the MP42 was even at Stalingrad - show me a picture please.... I also doubt that the 30 round stick magazine was available for the PPSH in this same time period as any and all photos and war time footage suggests/shows that the PPSH's had a 50 round drum during this early to mid war period and the 30 round stick (curved) magazine did not come out until later as in late 44'. But this is not such a big deal as the MP42 abuse. Most of your Soldats should have K98s, a few G41s, some MP40s and MG34s. As for pistols we should only have P08s and P38s, the addition of the Broomhandle Mauser is also a bit rediculos for every player (so it seems) to have the ability to use it. Best to stick with the norm and not the exceptions, yet this is a game and certain lvls of fantasy creep in.
end of the day the game is jolly good fun when it runs, and now that most the bugs are gone - too bad this was not all tested and perfected before we spent our $39.99
So hip firing naysayers - go and look at the WWII German small arms infantry manuals and you will see in black and white (God forbid) that this is indeed one way in which the 34 gunner was instructed to fire this weapon. Not so sure about the DP, and I unfortunately do not have a Russian manul to go by, but my guess is that they could as you can with most any LMG on the move, on the assault to support your advancing infantry...
Mg34
RO2 is a game! STHU and just enjoy it while the bugs are not running rampant!
If the hip firing MG haters would only bother to look in the preWW2 and WW2 (early war) MG34 and small arms manual they'll see via text, photos and drawings that the MG34 gunners were instructed to fire a number of ways, one of which was from the hip in an advance - which is what you see in the combat footage. This would possibly get the naysayers to halt sie klapper, but I doubt it, LOL.
Firing from the hip is NOT accurate and not easy to do in real life, nor in game, however it is simply one of many ways that one can fire the MG34. If you want accuracy fire from a prone position via the bipod or lafette tripod - there is where you'll rake havoc and not waste as much ammunition. If on the move, you can and they did fire from the hip using the issued leather MG sling and 50 round assault drum (this is what the drum was designed for and how it got it's name).
It is not however realistic to have this saddle drum on an infantry MGer, the saddle drums were for motorcycle combos and aircraft. Nor is the 250 round belt that you can run and carry, as in real life your A gunner could be running along side or behind you carrying one to two cans of ammo, of which each can could hold up to 250 rounds.
Firing the DP from the hip is another question - I've not seen this in any wartime footage, WWII, Korea or Vietnam (as it was also used by the North Koreans, Red Chinese, VC and NVA). This doesn't mean you can't do it, it is after all an LMG and you can hip fire and move with most any LMG, some are simply more difficult to do so like the Browning M1919A4 or M1919A6. Others like the Bren and or Type 96/97/99 are quite easy to fire from the hip and move with - you'll not get accuracy, but if you're on the recieving end you'd be smart to keep your head down LOL!
From firing live, I found it almost impossible to fire the DP in another other mode than prone and via the bipod as the drum was so heavy that to move caused the drum to move, which caused jams and misfeeds - this was from a 60+ year old gun and well worn drum, so it didn't catch or lock as a new one would have in 1942/43. Firing the MG34 live with the assault drum was a joy, but you of corse had to follow and duplicate the stances shown in the MG34 small arms manual. My rounds were all over the place and completely not accurate, yet again if an enemy was on the recieving end I am sure that they would have said Oh shize and kept their heads down until I had shot all my rounds and then shot me or tossed a grenade at me.
You all can go on and on about accuracy and what is period/correct, but if you do so you might seriously want to study some wartime weapons manuals as then you will see wot was wot ol' bean
Personally the firing of LMGs from the hip is not the worst in this game, the fact that on any given map you can see more MP42s than were ever made (lol) being used is what I find completely unrealistic. I doubt that the MP42 was even at Stalingrad - show me a picture please.... I also doubt that the 30 round stick magazine was available for the PPSH in this same time period as any and all photos and war time footage suggests/shows that the PPSH's had a 50 round drum during this early to mid war period and the 30 round stick (curved) magazine did not come out until later as in late 44'. But this is not such a big deal as the MP42 abuse. Most of your Soldats should have K98s, a few G41s, some MP40s and MG34s. As for pistols we should only have P08s and P38s, the addition of the Broomhandle Mauser is also a bit rediculos for every player (so it seems) to have the ability to use it. Best to stick with the norm and not the exceptions, yet this is a game and certain lvls of fantasy creep in.
end of the day the game is jolly good fun when it runs, and now that most the bugs are gone - too bad this was not all tested and perfected before we spent our $39.99
So hip firing naysayers - go and look at the WWII German small arms infantry manuals and you will see in black and white (God forbid) that this is indeed one way in which the 34 gunner was instructed to fire this weapon. Not so sure about the DP, and I unfortunately do not have a Russian manul to go by, but my guess is that they could as you can with most any LMG on the move, on the assault to support your advancing infantry...
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Key difference is it was only intended to be used as emergency situation as stressed in the manual, not as basic firing posture and it's not something you could do while effectively running with 10 to 30 pounds of ammunition and 25-30lbs weapon. Hipfire with slow walk (ala RO1) or standing still is perfectly fine while enjoying perfect mobility with a 25-30lbs weapon without having any problems in balance, "real" recoil or so is another story. It's like carrying three Panzerschreks at the same time or say eight Panzerfausts, not that hard really and you could probably march with those without any problem given you have somewhat reasonable endurance but I wouldn't expect that guy to survive 10 seconds in any actual battle drill\combat movement (low crawling anyone?) before the guy is already saying "**** this **** I'm discarding this unnecessary extra."
It's own kind of odd joke when you start tinkering with realistic details that the two far ends are either extremely abusable to very questionable\downright unrealistic sense or extremely limited\restricted to the point it's also unrealistic in some sense. Which one is the lesser evil is obvious question. The middle ground is often nonexistent or downright tricky to pull off, as it tends to lean heavily towards the abusable end when you practically try all possible ways to "break" the restrictions.
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You have failed to understand what was written, so next time read through a post before you retribute with an answer.
What is being said is: If you have already succeeded in keeping your enemy's head down with accurate suppressive fire from a deployed position enough times for him to feel very unsafe sticking his head up, and you now have to advance, then firing off a few bursts from the hip is going to let him know that you're still there waiting for his head to pop up, whilst infact you are about to advance.
No bollocks and nothing absurd about that at all, and it's been carried out in practice a million times.
And this is not the same as saying that actual accurate suppressive fire is laid down from the hip, cause that wouldn't be the case, esp. not if the enmy is shooting back at you, in which case I can guarantee you that the soldier in the vid wouldn't be standing out in the open firing his weapon from the hip.
In short: The German MGer in the vid does what he does for a reason, it's not to show off, it's done purely to add abit of extra noise in the enemy's direction - who btw obviously already has his head down and isn't firing back, otherwise our German rambo wouldn't be standing there fully exposing himself.
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So he is doing something that is not worthwhile, wasting ammunition and showing off.. isn't that exactly what you were arguing with me about?
Shooting randomly in the direction of the enemy does nothing to improve the situation and it is exactly the same as what those Liberian clowns (or Iraqi insurgents, ..., ...) were doing in the pictures I posted. Even if it was an Aryan supersoldier in question it is the same thing, there is absolutely no difference. He is firing his weapon, not hitting anything, not suppressing, not training, but just adding a bit noise.
There are exactly two situations where shooting without hitting anything is a good idea: in springing an ambush and breaking ambush you're in. This situation is not one of either. And even if it was, even then one should try to guess where the enemy is and shoot accurately in to that position making firing from the hip again non-applicable solution.
Here is a pdf that talks about suppression a bit. Worth reading even if it was to support LSW against SAW, which IMHO is a bad solution. But that is completely another discussion.
http://www.rusi.org/downloads/assets/Real_Role_of_Small_Arms_RDS_Summer_09.pdf
Shooting randomly in the direction of the enemy does nothing to improve the situation and it is exactly the same as what those Liberian clowns (or Iraqi insurgents, ..., ...) were doing in the pictures I posted. Even if it was an Aryan supersoldier in question it is the same thing, there is absolutely no difference. He is firing his weapon, not hitting anything, not suppressing, not training, but just adding a bit noise.
There are exactly two situations where shooting without hitting anything is a good idea: in springing an ambush and breaking ambush you're in. This situation is not one of either. And even if it was, even then one should try to guess where the enemy is and shoot accurately in to that position making firing from the hip again non-applicable solution.
Here is a pdf that talks about suppression a bit. Worth reading even if it was to support LSW against SAW, which IMHO is a bad solution. But that is completely another discussion.
http://www.rusi.org/downloads/assets/Real_Role_of_Small_Arms_RDS_Summer_09.pdf
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Wether it is/was worthwile, or not, none of us can really say seeing as we have no idea what was at the other end of his line of sight.
I can tell you though that it isn't unnormal to fire a burst or two from the hip just before or whilst advancing depending on the amount of suppressive fire that is being laid down in the first place.
But that firing a MG from the hip is inaccurate, and downright silly if you're actually trying to engage a target, no'one is argueing with, infact I've brought this up many times before on these forums. But this has nothing to do with what I've been discussing here, which is purely about trying to make sense of what the German soldier is doing in that vid.
And on a final note, there was no reason for you starting to become downright vile and repulsive with comments such as these:
"Even if it was an Aryan supersoldier in question it is the same thing, there is absolutely no difference."
It doesn't take a genius to see what you were hinting at with that comment, which is way out of bounds.
I can tell you though that it isn't unnormal to fire a burst or two from the hip just before or whilst advancing depending on the amount of suppressive fire that is being laid down in the first place.
But that firing a MG from the hip is inaccurate, and downright silly if you're actually trying to engage a target, no'one is argueing with, infact I've brought this up many times before on these forums. But this has nothing to do with what I've been discussing here, which is purely about trying to make sense of what the German soldier is doing in that vid.
And on a final note, there was no reason for you starting to become downright vile and repulsive with comments such as these:
"Even if it was an Aryan supersoldier in question it is the same thing, there is absolutely no difference."
It doesn't take a genius to see what you were hinting at with that comment, which is way out of bounds.
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What comes to the repulsive part, I think that it is a wrong starting point to think that what you see in the video makes sense. People tend to think that Germans, who had arguably the most effective infantry fighting force in the WW2, always make sense. Friend of mine once said that every hockey team has an asshole, which invariably proves to be correct. Even effective armies have their fair share of "not so good" staff in them.
In terms of making sense, the guy in the video can IMHO be classified to be "can of same ****, different label" as the Liberian asshats posing for reporters. Only sense I see in that action is the giving something to shoot for the combat cameraman who is filming the piece.
Hipfire is useful as an emergency method only. When everything else fails it is a reasonable thing to do. People are trying to excuse the overuse of this emergency mechanic in game by trying to prove it is viable combat technique to go on a rampage with an LMG blazing from the hip. It is not.
In terms of making sense, the guy in the video can IMHO be classified to be "can of same ****, different label" as the Liberian asshats posing for reporters. Only sense I see in that action is the giving something to shoot for the combat cameraman who is filming the piece.
Hipfire is useful as an emergency method only. When everything else fails it is a reasonable thing to do. People are trying to excuse the overuse of this emergency mechanic in game by trying to prove it is viable combat technique to go on a rampage with an LMG blazing from the hip. It is not.
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Ja ja, nein und ja alles gute!
Ja ja, nein und ja alles gute!
Thank you - someone drinks good coffee! Bravo! What we see in the footage, and most footage that was shot raw in combat is how these MGers were trained to operate/fire their weapons. As we know this is fact and historically accurate, any complaints about the game or suggestions might be made to make the game better, such as reporting any further bugs or issues that will allow the designers to correct them so we can have more fun slaying red vermin, or huns, which ever you prefer.
As a note, for those of you who have tried to play in-game hip firing while moving - it takes practice to enable one to hit a target by using a short burst, while shooting your entire drum or belt usually results in wasting rounds and getting you killed by one well aimed shot via an alert rifleman. Any such players in game who can efficiantly fire from the hip without expending too much ammo have been practicing, as it's not done easily (in-game). One of the most difficult positions besides Panzerjager (tank hunter/killer) is that of machine gunner. In-game you can easily blow through your alloted belts and if no one tops you off you've got to find more on your own - good fire disipline and some technique are required as it was in real life for the MGers that we see in these footage clips. Just any rifleman could not pick up an MG and know how to really handle it - yes many if not most were cross-trained, yet not every rifleman was a good MGer.
In closing, thank you Unus for hitting the nail on the head... Fire a burst, then as you advance fire a few rounds so your friend (enemy) knows that that you're coming his way and will either continue to keep down or break away, making a run/move to a better position, where he can then return fire or simply say sod it (as you Brits say) and run like hell LOL! That's how it goes. I think this whole thing got started by a few players that were unhappy when killed or shot by hip firing LMGers, as they didn't understand that this stance or method is completely 100% right-on historically accurate for the time. What they may not realise is that what was done THEN is not clearly how things are done NOW, or since THEN. So as they are unaccustomed to seeing such, they denounce it as "hoke". The proof is in the footage - if they so wanted, they could pour over hours of it and see the same things again and again - the footage and stills do not lie as they only captured what was happening/as it all unfolded.
*Well noted, that Jippofin makes a good point, that when studying some footage and stills one will find occasions that nothing was happening, and the CC (combat cameraman) would say "ok Hans, go over there and fire some rounds off so I can get some heroic footage of you" or "stand by that tank and point to the AP holes in the hull, and smile as if you're the proud AT gunner that took it out". If you sort through enough footage, over the the years you can tell what is actual from that which is staged (most of the time). But keeping in mind that once does not make the rule, rather than an exception.
Ja ja, nein und ja alles gute!
Thank you - someone drinks good coffee! Bravo!
What we see in the footage, and most footage that was shot raw in combat is how these MGers were trained to operate/fire their weapons. As we know this is fact and historically accurate, any complaints about the game or suggestions might be made to make the game better, such as reporting any further bugs or issues that will allow the designers to correct them so we can have more fun slaying red vermin, or huns, which ever you prefer.As a note, for those of you who have tried to play in-game hip firing while moving - it takes practice to enable one to hit a target by using a short burst, while shooting your entire drum or belt usually results in wasting rounds and getting you killed by one well aimed shot via an alert rifleman. Any such players in game who can efficiantly fire from the hip without expending too much ammo have been practicing, as it's not done easily (in-game). One of the most difficult positions besides Panzerjager (tank hunter/killer) is that of machine gunner. In-game you can easily blow through your alloted belts and if no one tops you off you've got to find more on your own - good fire disipline and some technique are required as it was in real life for the MGers that we see in these footage clips. Just any rifleman could not pick up an MG and know how to really handle it - yes many if not most were cross-trained, yet not every rifleman was a good MGer.
In closing, thank you Unus for hitting the nail on the head... Fire a burst, then as you advance fire a few rounds so your friend (enemy) knows that that you're coming his way and will either continue to keep down or break away, making a run/move to a better position, where he can then return fire or simply say sod it (as you Brits say) and run like hell LOL! That's how it goes. I think this whole thing got started by a few players that were unhappy when killed or shot by hip firing LMGers, as they didn't understand that this stance or method is completely 100% right-on historically accurate for the time. What they may not realise is that what was done THEN is not clearly how things are done NOW, or since THEN. So as they are unaccustomed to seeing such, they denounce it as "hoke". The proof is in the footage - if they so wanted, they could pour over hours of it and see the same things again and again - the footage and stills do not lie as they only captured what was happening/as it all unfolded.
*Well noted, that Jippofin makes a good point, that when studying some footage and stills one will find occasions that nothing was happening, and the CC (combat cameraman) would say "ok Hans, go over there and fire some rounds off so I can get some heroic footage of you" or "stand by that tank and point to the AP holes in the hull, and smile as if you're the proud AT gunner that took it out". If you sort through enough footage, over the the years you can tell what is actual from that which is staged (most of the time). But keeping in mind that once does not make the rule, rather than an exception.
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You're not stopping to think about why it wasn't used that way, which had little to do with the suitability of the weapon to the task. A LMG was kept out of close combat because A) it's an expensive piece of equipment difficult to replace, B) its supremacy at medium and long ranges was so great that it was not worth wasting it on a suicide rush and C) it was inferior in the close combat role to a much more common SMG or just throwing tons of guys with grenades and bayonets/shovels/etc at the problem .
Now you take it into the setting of, say, RO2 Apartments. The LMG is not difficult to replace, a new one appears on respawn like everything else, so reason A is gone. There are no medium to long ranges, so reason B is gone. It's still worse than an SMG, but there's not going to be more than a few guys with bayonets to have to deal with at once, so reason C is largely gone as well. We've taken the machinegunner and put him into a fantasy scenario where the "emergency" is all the time and all the drawbacks that would normally cause one to hesitate at the concept are gone.
If you were to go back in time and give our hypothetical Wehrmacht fellow the option of attempting to clear a building with his LMG or being shot, do you really think he would give up in despair just because he's not "supposed" to do it?
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Jippo, saying that I am trying to make sense of what the soldier is doing in the video is not that same as saying that what he does makes 100% sense or that it's the best he could've done under those circumstances - esp. since we have no clue what's at the far left of the picture.
And yes, ofcourse there are idiots and assholes within every branch of society, which includes the military, and Germany certainly had it's fair share back in WW2, in very prominent positions as-well. Again no man with his feet firmly planted on this earth will claim otherwise.
Anyway back to the video. I for one do not believe that the soldier is posing for the camera, mostly because I know that this footage is infact some of the more rare actual combat footage available from the period. So therefore, assuming he had undergone the obligatory 18 months of strict training that the Wehrmacht demanded up until late 43, then I will also assume that he didn't do what he does on that video without a proper risk assessment first. In short, who'ever or what'ever he's shooting at most certainly isn't shooting back, cause otherwise he would not be foolishly exposing himself like that.
So what's he doing? Well my guess is as mentioned that he's adding a little extra noise in the enemy's general direction before moving on, making sure their ears are busy with the cracking noise of bullets passing by and letting them know that "stick your head up and we'll get you". But obviously he's not alone shooting in that direction, otherwise he'd be staying put with his machinegun firmly fixed on the enemy positions. No, having seen more of the footage from that particular scene before myself, the MGer in the vid is actually just one of many shooting in that general direction, probably to flush someone out from somewhere. (never seen what they were actually shooting at or in the direction of)
Finally regarding the people running around hip shooting MG's ingame, it is too easy and I've said it many many times by now. They're swinging around a 12+ kg hunk of metal like was it a SMG. That's why I suggested that some delay be put upon mouse input for machinegunners walking around with their MGs undeployed. This would make operating an undeployed MG ingame a sluggish and cumbersome affair, not to mention making it a very inefficient method of trying to actually hit your enemy in most situations, just as it is in reality. I believe this delay would simulate well having to swing around a 12+ kg hunk of metal. Deployed mouse inputs should ofcourse stay instant as with other weapons.
And yes, ofcourse there are idiots and assholes within every branch of society, which includes the military, and Germany certainly had it's fair share back in WW2, in very prominent positions as-well. Again no man with his feet firmly planted on this earth will claim otherwise.
Anyway back to the video. I for one do not believe that the soldier is posing for the camera, mostly because I know that this footage is infact some of the more rare actual combat footage available from the period. So therefore, assuming he had undergone the obligatory 18 months of strict training that the Wehrmacht demanded up until late 43, then I will also assume that he didn't do what he does on that video without a proper risk assessment first. In short, who'ever or what'ever he's shooting at most certainly isn't shooting back, cause otherwise he would not be foolishly exposing himself like that.
So what's he doing? Well my guess is as mentioned that he's adding a little extra noise in the enemy's general direction before moving on, making sure their ears are busy with the cracking noise of bullets passing by and letting them know that "stick your head up and we'll get you". But obviously he's not alone shooting in that direction, otherwise he'd be staying put with his machinegun firmly fixed on the enemy positions. No, having seen more of the footage from that particular scene before myself, the MGer in the vid is actually just one of many shooting in that general direction, probably to flush someone out from somewhere. (never seen what they were actually shooting at or in the direction of)
Finally regarding the people running around hip shooting MG's ingame, it is too easy and I've said it many many times by now. They're swinging around a 12+ kg hunk of metal like was it a SMG. That's why I suggested that some delay be put upon mouse input for machinegunners walking around with their MGs undeployed. This would make operating an undeployed MG ingame a sluggish and cumbersome affair, not to mention making it a very inefficient method of trying to actually hit your enemy in most situations, just as it is in reality. I believe this delay would simulate well having to swing around a 12+ kg hunk of metal. Deployed mouse inputs should ofcourse stay instant as with other weapons.
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Good point Mekhazzio, but it doesn't do the actual gameplay any favors that way. I appreaciate your take on the matter and I agree with you on many of the points. But I do believe game should aim for realism in these things or it looses it's main selling point, realism.
RO has two routes, one is the easy mainstream gameplay route of the BF3 and MW. In that game Tripwire will loose, as the BF3 (for example) is far more enjoyable as a game. The other route is the military simulation route, which is more difficult, but at least it could reward a loyal following. In the latter it would not be advisable to have many of the things we have in the game at the moment.
I do really hope this game is going to aim for higher realism. This is a sector where it fails in many places at the moment. A good example is your posts on leading targets and latency. Everything that reduces running and gunning is good IMHO, because this game is not very good in that field and will fail in the face of the competition.
RO has two routes, one is the easy mainstream gameplay route of the BF3 and MW. In that game Tripwire will loose, as the BF3 (for example) is far more enjoyable as a game. The other route is the military simulation route, which is more difficult, but at least it could reward a loyal following. In the latter it would not be advisable to have many of the things we have in the game at the moment.
I do really hope this game is going to aim for higher realism. This is a sector where it fails in many places at the moment. A good example is your posts on leading targets and latency. Everything that reduces running and gunning is good IMHO, because this game is not very good in that field and will fail in the face of the competition.
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My point is that if there is enemy in a distance that his firing can have an effect he is extremely foolish and will die soon enough. And if there isn't, then my assumption of the situation is correct and there is no meaningful tactical reason to fire like that except for the camera. I tend to believe he is not suicidal.
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Or again, he's just one of many firing in that direction, most likely to flush someone out from somewhere or just to add a little extra to the mayhem before moving up.
But I think we agree that if the enemy had shown the will and ability to return fire at the time that this scene was filmed, then he would not be standing tall exposing himself as he does. Cause I also tend to believe that he is not being suicidal, but also that what he's doing actually has some purpose - beyond posing for the camera mind you.
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This is hitting upon the central conflict in designing these sorts of games though: realism of methods vs realism of results. Consider the dilemma of a WW2 flight simulator. You can make the most amazing sim that ever was, with flawless flight model, incredible ballistics and damage model, you name it, but the moment you set players loose on it or worse, get multiplayer going, it's no longer realistic at all. 5 kills in WW2 earned the right to be called an ace, but someone with 5 kills in online gaming is still a total noob. Players know how their plane performs at the very edge of its envelope and have dozens or hundreds of hours of combat experience. You'll see things like dogfighting transports, not because the simulation is unrealistic, but because the players are immortal superheroes.
I think realism of results is a hopeless goal to chase in Red Orchestra, for much the same sort of reasons.
"Run and gun" isn't necessarily a vulgarity. There's plenty of gameplay design space in RO for both the slow and fast extremes of pacing. Having both approaches helps the game by expanding depth of play, and RO is fairly unique among shooters in that both fast and slow make sense in the setting and can be fairly engaging even taken individually. Consider real world SWAT and hostage rescue teams; when they act, they act with great speed, but nobody would disparage what they do as simple "running and gunning". There's plenty of tactical depth to be had there when things are done right, and I feel the game is at its best when both can be smoothly incorporated. If RO focuses on just one extreme at the exclusion of the other, the gameplay suffers for it (I'm looking at you, Danzigpartments)
As for LMG hipfiring from a purely game design standpoint, I don't have a problem with it. Getting kills with hipshooting a MG tends to fall into one of the categories of pointblank shots, easily prepared shots, or total random chance. Most of what's proposed in this thread would not really affect those categories. Using a MG in this manner is one of the least effective choices you can make. An SMG is clearly superior for the role, a semiauto rifle with bayonet is almost always going to perform better as well, and for a skilled hipshooter, even a bolt with bayonet is about as reliable. The game MG isn't even remotely overpowered for close combat work, it just ruffles people's feathers far beyond what its effectiveness justifies because of to the widespread (mis)perception that MGs are supposed to be limited to a narrow niche.
As for the class gameplay as a whole, the machinegunner suffers a lot of disadvantages for not a lot of payoffs. If you make the MGs so impotent at all but their one niche so that even the pistol is a preferable choice for pointblank shots, you're hitting the class a lot harder than is justified.
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But they are limited!
I was taking part in infantry unit drill this autumn in which we had to move intp a large factory. Not once anyone even dreamed of putting a LMG in to a position where the gunner would have needed to fire from the hip. On the contrary, really.
LMG should never be on point anywhere. LMG should be deployed at all times the gunner is not running into a better position. Prone position works well in urban setting and is preferred. LMG's are heavy and big in close quarters.
It is ok if you want to have a weapon behave in a certain manner in a game. But making unrealistic decisions and claiming them to be realistic is something I can not take without commenting.
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During WW2 the MG was definitely not used indoors for CQC as we currently see it used ingame a lot. It's completely impractical in reality to use a MG indoors, it is simply too big and too heavy to be quickly & effectively wielded inside the small confines of a building.
And if the MGer had to follow with his unit into a building then he'd hang the MG from its carrying strap over his shoulder and pull his pistol from the holster, simple as that.
And if the MGer had to follow with his unit into a building then he'd hang the MG from its carrying strap over his shoulder and pull his pistol from the holster, simple as that.
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