Production Process of RO2

[Susi]

If you are fan of Tripwire Interative keep reading, if you are fanboy
stop reading, you wont be like this.

I said stop reading... and you still continue

It was quite clear that OstFront was just standalone game made from
a mod, and then came Killing Floor also made from the mod.

After that Tripwire have started to work on their first actual GAME.
However Tripwire is quite a extraordinary company, who doesnt
act like typical game companies, and we know that, and thats why
we love them.

First big PLUS comes from that they started Rising Storm modexperiment.
However that huge plus got few minor shadows. First is that
idea of it is quite surely calculated. Its not like modders would love
to make pacific mod. Its that HBO relased their Pacific TV-serie.
Second is that TWI doesnt seem to share anymore frontpage
space to other mods than RisingStorm like they did with OST.

(This is just my own opinion, not opinion of any mod team
as im not member of any mod team)

Second big plus comes from quality of work TWI boys have did and
antension they have gave to historical researching and co-operation
with different people that they have get historical things on line.

Third big plus comes from their work with doing FPS gameplay even better.
Totally new game mode isnt something we see nowadays in new FPS
relases. Also improvement on MG-deploying and other great features
will be propaply something we will enjoy while playing RO2. And quite sure
some of those features will be standards in FPS games few years from
now.

But no pluspoints without some minuses. And on my list one big
minus comes from playing with big boys. In my life i have learned that
dont play with big boys if you arent big yourself. And thats what
TWI boyes have did, when doing their first professional game.
Atleast there have been two major things which TWI have outsource
to best possible they can found,but best isnt allways best. Offcourse
its allways easy way to go and also end result is allways guaranteed.

However one biggest key element to humans is allways change.
Maybe a change of the life time. It makes us doing our best, pushing
the limits. Is Tripwire - Red Orchestra 2, a change of life time to
studio who have allready did motion captures to Avatar. Is RO2
something which makes them trying their best to show everybody
how good they are. No its not, its just a small task before next
massive film production. And you can see it from result. Result
is good but you can see from it that they havent spend sleepless
nights to fixing small things.

And same goes to Sam Hulick, the man is absolutly professional.
Tracks seem to be well produced. But in the end its just a cover band
playing Elvis. Even that they play perfectly the soul of songs is missing.

Maybe even with less of money but more of time and organizing, you
could have done a co-operation with east european academies.

Maybe a Fryderyk Chopin University of Music in Warsaw,
Sibelius academy in Helsinki or State University of Music and Performing
Arts in Stuttgart
Im quite sure they all have lot of young classical composers. And composeing classical songs to RO2 would be something like
change of a lifetime to them. Also they could easily use real orchestra
of their school.


Hope to see your opinions
-Susi

 

[Floyd]

My only objective comment would be an observation....
I didn't realize that RO2 was finished and on the shelves.

Thusly, how can one tell if the game is a success or a failure?
Has anyone had the priviledge of playing the finished product?


I don't see the need to compare TW with the "big boys".
Thats like comparing Apples to Walnuts.
The only thing they have in common is they both produce games for the PC.

EA is a publicly traded company:
Here's a short bio of three of their Board of Directors:

Mr. Coleman served as Senior Advisor to Major League Baseball from 1999 until 2005 and, from 2001 to 2002, was the Chairman of ARENACO, a subsidiary of Yankees/Nets. Mr. Coleman was President of The National League of Professional Baseball Clubs from 1994 to 1999, having previously served since 1992 as Executive Director, Market Development of Major League Baseball. Mr. Coleman serves on the Board of Directors of the following public companies: Avis Budget Group; Churchill Downs Inc.; H.J. Heinz Corporation; and Omnicom Group Inc.

Mr. Huber currently serves as Senior Vice President of Engineering at Google. In this role, Mr. Huber leads the technology development and innovation efforts for the company's advertising and monetization systems, including Google's AdWords and AdSense programs, as well as Google Apps, including Gmail, Google Calendar, Google Docs, Google Reader, Google Groups, Orkut, Blogger and Picasa. He brings to EA's board more than 20 years of experience in large-scale systems design and operations, online consumer product development, and engineering management. Prior to joining Google, Mr. Huber held management positions at eBay and Excite@Home. Mr. Huber holds a bachelor's degree in computer engineering from the University of Illinois and a master's degree from Harvard University

Ms. Laybourne is the founder of Oxygen Media, a television network launched in 2000 targeted at younger women, where she served as chairman and chief executive officer until 2007. She also served as president of Disney/ABC Cable Networks from 1996 to 1998 where she played a key role in management of ABC's Saturday morning children's programming schedule. Prior to this, Ms. Laybourne served 16 years at Nickelodeon, managing the television network and establishing herself as a pioneer in creating innovative programming for children. Under her leadership, Nickelodeon became the top-rated 24-hour cable programming service and won several notable honors. Ms. Laybourne earned a Bachelor of Arts degree in Art History from Vassar College and a Master of Science degree in Elementary Education from the University of Pennsylvania.

Here is an example of their market capitalization:
Market Cap. (Mil) $5,279.49
Shares Out (Mil)331.83
Float (Mil)328.22

I can't begin to phathom the number of people employed by EA. Nor can I wrap my feeble brain around the re$ource$ that EA has at their disposal.

It would be foolish, imo, to expect the same 'level' of animation, effects, publicity, etc that a company the size of EA (or any other major gaming publisher) can bring to the table from TW (or any other self funded 'indie' team).

Having said that, I would dearly love to see what TW could do with the resources of an EA. With the resources at their disposal (time, money, personell), I think TW does a beautiful job of bringing gamers a quality experience in an appropriately priced product.

I'm a fan, but I wouldn't necessarily call myself a fanboy. More of a realistic fan.

 

[Zetsumei]

Well for what its worth if TWI wanted classical music they could have even used that of the old masters. Copyrights fade according to the current laws I believe after a period of 70 years after the death of author. (logically this only counts for the music itself, as for every new recording the clock starts ticking again). But then again cover bands seem to be able to sell cd's so perhaps most songs would be accessible.

All soviet music is not copyrighted either, so TWI could freely use at least most popular music pieces you would find near gramophone players in Stalingrad those days.

Sam Hulick is not only a talented composer aimed specifically at digital media, aka making music that blends well with say an actual game, next to that he is famous for his work as well. So having his name on the box sells some additional copies. I wouldn't be surprised if TWI just loved the music in Mass Effect and because of that decided to go with him.

So far I'm really happy with what I heard from Sam Hulick, and personally I wouldn't be so sure that your suggestion would give better results. Personally I would however love that in game and in cut scenes or whatever, we could hear some old soviet songs. I personally really like those songs like katyusha, and kalinka.

YouTube - Katyusha - Original Version

 

[PUTZ]

It would be foolish, imo, to expect the same 'level' of animation, effects, publicity, etc that a company the size of EA (or any other major gaming publisher) can bring to the table from TW (or any other self funded 'indie' team).

Ohhh man.

 

[Mormegil]

So the complaints are the music is too derivative, and the animations aren't as good as Avatar.


Could be worse things to have issues with.

As far as the music goes, there's a difference between classical composing, and scoring a video game. I'm pretty sure of it. You can call that a critique, but I call that a subjective difference of opinion on what is good music. It's subjective. To many, it's good enough or even awesome. To some, it's an Elvis cover.

 

[Floyd]

eeek. I didn't mean that in a derogatory way. Sorry if it came across that way. The quality and professionalism of the work was never in question. Thus the quotes around 'level'.

How can I express it better (its hard to talk with one's foot firmly logded in one's mouth)....
I'm thinking more in terms of the sheer volume of persons attacking a single task. ie. seperate departments handling all of the different aspects of the entire business model.

As we (the general public) have not played the finished product, commenting on its attributes (or lack thereof) is moot.

Do I get any brownie points for:

I think TW does a beautiful job of bringing gamers a quality experience in an appropriately priced product.

 

[fiftyone]

Could you put that in the simplest of terms please, I do not quite uberstand le ensemble...

Are we looking for lesser talented musically animated programing persons, apt to have been involved or innovated with secondary game derisions ?

Happy Christmas to you all.

 

[Fedorov]

So, all I understood from the OP is that, TWI having resources to produce a more polished game is a bad thing?

 

[Zetsumei]

So, all I understood from the OP is that, TWI having resources to produce a more polished game is a bad thing?

Next time read his post before commenting

 

[213]

fan/fanboyism is generally a bad thing. i don't get attached. if a company turns bad, i ditch it and go elsewhere.

having any kind of loyalty makes this difficult to do. that's why you have people clinging onto dying franchises, hoping the next game in the series will be better, only to be disappointed again and again.

i ditched bohemia interactive recently when they made a habit of that dlc nonsense. and this was a company i was really fond of.

any company can turn. it's the consumer's job to keep them straight by boycotting nonsense.

 

[Fedorov]

Next time read his post before commenting

I did, and as I said "if I understood correctly" means that even though I read it, I didn't really get the point of the post other than the one I said.

Now, please explain where I'm wrong instead of insulting me.

 

[Susi]

Rofl
Is my english so bad, or did anybody even read
what i wrote.

To Floyd
I didnt gave any comments about game itself in this thread. What i was talking about was production process.

To fiftyone and Fedorov
Simplifying last chapters, which you didnt propaply
understood, or you missunderstood it.

Was that if you work with best, they dont take you
so seriously if you arent "best/biggest" on your own
field.

So example that studio which have made
motion captures to Avatar, have also made
motion captures to All Lord Of Rings, Narnias,
Pirates Of Caribean, Fast And Furious, Iron Man

And all other big productions, When something
like TWI comes to their studio, its something
they do with their left hand, while they are
allready calibrateing their devices for next
big hollywood movie. (Oki that was sarcasm
,but you get the point)

If you go to smaller studio, they dont got maybe
so good equipments, but they do their best
because you are important to them.

And because TWI have first time money to outsource
things, they have took guideline to outsource things
to "best" possibles, which im little bit criticising.
But there is also lot of good in their production process
like i said. No need to catch only necative comments
from my post.


Happy Christmas to everybody
-Susi

 

[Zetsumei]

I did, and as I said "if I understood correctly" means that even though I read it, I didn't really get the point of the post other than the one I said.

Thing is there is a difference between reading over a thread and really reading things word for word and putting things together.

I often read quickly and miss some details, but if you are not sure whether you got the prime hint of a post you should reread or ask kindly.

You put down an assumption posted in such a way that it questions the sanity of the op. Which is why I posted my blunt comment. Before pouring cynical and sarcastic undertones in a post, you should at least be clear of what someone posted.

So I'm sorry for my blunt post, but I think that if you read back at your own post you'll see that while not direct your post is a clear insult to the OP .

 

[Fedorov]

Thing is there is a difference between reading over a thread and really reading things word for word and putting things together.

I often read quickly and miss some details, but if you are not sure whether you got the prime hint of a post you should reread or ask kindly.

You put down an assumption posted in such a way that it questions the sanity of the op. Which is why I posted my blunt comment. Before pouring cynical and sarcastic undertones in a post, you should at least be clear of what someone posted.

So I'm sorry for my blunt post, but I think that if you read back at your own post you'll see that while not direct your post is a clear insult to the OP .

It wasn't cynical or sarcastic, I was just trying to understand his point. And that was what I got from it.


@Susi, thanks for making it more clear.

But I don't know, most people who worked with the "big ones", didn't know the success they would have beforehand... and also, if they do a crappy job, they should remember that their names are gonna be there, so I don't think they would do a bad job.

I get your point, but I think that going with someone who is already experienced, renowned and resourceful in something is a safer bet. Just for the sake of not taking TWI seriously, I doubt they are going to ruin their own good name.

 

[Makino]

I understand your feelings but i think it delays the game outsourcing the assets to people who are not proven in the market, it would be like a gamble and if they fail then it delays the game even more.

At least they are getting good ppl to do these things.

I wonder if we knew TWI could contract these top studios but goes for some "nobodies" we would get threads like: "why didnt twi got studio X for motion capture?"

Sorry for the bad english

 

[[TW]Wilsonam]

I'll pick up on a couple of the points made, moderately randomly, as I found the OP hard to read - too many words at this time of the morning

1. We'll give front page space to all and any mods, very happily. One of the issues we always had with the old mod teams was the habit of them doing "stealth PR". We offer support and PR assistance, they go "Oh, goodiegoodieyumyum" - then ignore the opportunity. Some of this seems to have carried over to RO2. Note to mod teams: WORK WITH US so we can help you!

2. Animations: on the MoCap - the studio did what we paid them to do. You haven't seen all the results by a very long shot. All you have seen is some of the animations, individually in the game. We've got 3 animators and a coder full time working on the whole system - and it will take a huge amount of effort. And if you think the MoCap studio didn't give us the attention, you're wrong. Don't forget our budget was limited - we spent a couple of days there. The likes of Avatar had a budget for a couple of YEARS there. The work they delivered in such a short space of time is outstandingly good - and it is up to us to make use of it!

3. Not at all sure why you are comparing Sam Hulick to a cover band. All of the music is original composition. If some of it is "derivative", it will be because we required him to make the music identifiably German or Russian. So it SHOULD sound "typical". But music will always be down to opinion - some people will want to play RO2 to strains of KF death metal

 

[locogringojc]

My only objective comment would be an observation....
I didn't realize that RO2 was finished and on the shelves.

Thusly, how can one tell if the game is a success or a failure?
Has anyone had the priviledge of playing the finished product?


I don't see the need to compare TW with the "big boys".
Thats like comparing Apples to Walnuts.
The only thing they have in common is they both produce games for the PC.

EA is a publicly traded company:
Here's a short bio of three of their Board of Directors:




Here is an example of their market capitalization:
Market Cap. (Mil) $5,279.49
Shares Out (Mil)331.83
Float (Mil)328.22

I can't begin to phathom the number of people employed by EA. Nor can I wrap my feeble brain around the re$ource$ that EA has at their disposal.

It would be foolish, imo, to expect the same 'level' of animation, effects, publicity, etc that a company the size of EA (or any other major gaming publisher) can bring to the table from TW (or any other self funded 'indie' team).

Having said that, I would dearly love to see what TW could do with the resources of an EA. With the resources at their disposal (time, money, personell), I think TW does a beautiful job of bringing gamers a quality experience in an appropriately priced product.

I'm a fan, but I wouldn't necessarily call myself a fanboy. More of a realistic fan.

First of All I agree with everything in the quoted Post. Also I'd like to add that TWI's size in terms of # of employees, resources (both monetarily and physical) when compared to a Giant like EA isn't a weakness. Being small makes you agile, and able to focus on the Smaller details that make games Polished. Look at BC2, you can't lean left or Right, go prone, or even deploy your MG. Now I know that is only one game, but my point being is that movements are a rather smaller aspect of gaming, especially defined and odd movements such as being able to control how far you lean out of a window, etc. Also no other game has Climatic and Dynamic Sound Scores that play with it. So to the poster of this Thread....dude wtf are you smoking>? RO2 is gonna Rock yours and everyone elses socks off; And PC GAMER Magazine AGREES TOO XD!

 

[Susi]

<mad mode on>

Now to ALL OF YOU !!!
Before posting if you are too lazy to reading my post
go to top of page a read the fu*king HEADING!!!

It says Production Process, now if you dont know
what is production process go to library!

I dont say a word about result, all i speak about is
production process itself.

<mad mode off>

Actually Wilsonam said, what i tried to say

"we spent a couple of days there. The likes of Avatar had a
budget for a couple of YEARS there."

Now try to think like a managing director of MoCap Studio

Those who use your mocap studio next two years are them
where the money comes from. And you need to keep them happy.
If its big movie studio or game studio, they got products
under development all the time, and its really important
to keep them happy. If indie game company pays about two days, and they
will be visiting next time 2 or 3 years later, result doesnt matter
much to MoCap studio.

Also i believe Mr. Wilsonam that you have worked RO2 at least
last 2 years. Now try to imagine that tomorrow you need to stop
and spend next 2 days working something else and then continue
working with RO2. If you are honest, what ever you need to
work those 2 days, it will be just a pain in the ***.

The same goes to those who work in MoCap studio
They have allready worked last 4 months with next
Indiana Jones and The Sinking Temple or something
Then they spent next 2 days working something, and again
next 3months that Indiana Jones. What ever you need to
do those 2days its just a pain in the ***.

So before you went in the studio, and they took
that Well Hello Mr. Wilsonam smile, they were
curseing that dude from sales deparment to hell,
because of selling two days of studio time in middle
of something bigger.

And thats why i think, useing mid sized MoCap-studios is
better because they are more use to small project and
you are important to them.

And once again i didnt said anything about the RESULT.
I'm not criticizing the result and im sure that your animators
will do absolutly fantastic job. But im giving feedback
about the process.


What i tried to say with that "cover band thing" is that what
cover bands do is that they try to mimic something.
And thats what Sam is currently working on. Im not saying that
that you need to born in eastern europe to being able
to compose music which sounds eastern european, but at least
some studies in some eastern european music academy would
be needed. Now he more like seems to useing typical instrument
which are used in russian songs, but doesnt really catch that
melancholy which makes the difference beetween slavic music
and all others.

And once again, i dont say anything negative about RESULT.
Tracks i have heard so far are awsome, they dont just sound
russian to me. Sam Hulick is absolutly awsome composer, did
awsome tracks to Mass Effect soundtrack, but is he right
man to doing russian "anthems"?

 

[heady89]

Seems to me that you're just babbling about stuff you've no clue about dude.

 

[hockeywarrior]

From his difficult-to-read-wall-of-text, I gather that he's trying to say that Hulick's music can't be truly "Eastern-European" or whatever because he isn't himself from that part of the world. Let me preface all of my statements with the fact that I have been studying music for about eight years and know a thing or two, here or there

First of all, this is a soundtrack for a video game. I'm not belittling the art form at all -- simply saying that the entire game doesn't revolve around its soundtrack. It's not like Tripwire has been hired to commission a great "Eastern-European Symphony" or anything. They're making a video game, and the music is intended to support the feel and overall enjoyment of the game as a form of entertainment

Second, I think Sam's compositions are great so far from what I've heard. I think you could argue "authenticity" all day in regards to "true" musical style, but I think your arguments are debatable to say the least. Sam, as a composer for a main-stream media, has to include "typical" sounds and styles in his music to correctly convey both sides of the conflict. This means there has to be a certain level of stereotyping, cliche, and imitation to get the desired effect. Otherwise, the musical ideas simply won't come across.

At the same time, it's not like he's directly copying and over exaggerating every cliche in the book about Russian and German music. From what I've gathered so far, his soundtrack sounds fairly subtle, and every bit of it is a new composition. This takes tons of work -- trust me, I've tried my hand at orchestral compositions and it can be really tough, even if the ideas are in place.

In regards to the rest of your post I honestly don't know what you're talking about. Nothing personal, but I just can't understand what you're saying.