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Upcoming Forum Overhaul

We are starting the work to switch our forums, which have been based on a version of the Vbulletin forum software since their inception with the Red Orchestra mod (then VB 3 and currently VB 5.1) to an all new forum software called Xenforo. After researching it, we feel Xenforo is a better choice for the future as it has a vibrant modding and addon community that will allow us to extend the functions of these forums in ways players will enjoy.

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Privay Policy Update

We’ve updated the Tripwire Privacy Notice under our Policies to be clearer about our use of customer information to come in line with the EU General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR) rules that come into force today (25th May 2018). The following are highlights of our changes:

We’ve incorporated the relevant concepts from the GDPR including joining the EU and Swiss Privacy Shield framework. We’ve added explanations for why and how Tripwire processes customer data and the types of data that we process, as well as information about your data protection rights.

For more information about our privacy practices, please review the new Privacy Policy found here:
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Looking for Balance & Feedback

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  • Looking for Balance & Feedback

    Hello all! We are going through a some balancing right now and would love some feedback as to what may need addressed. If you have concerns with zeds, maps, weapons, perks and so on, this is the place to let us know!

    Important - Please let us know if your feedback applies to solo or multiplayer and what difficulty. These are balanced somewhat separately.

    Suggestions are great however, we may not be able to hit everything at once but its better to have too much information than not enough.

    Thank you!
    Last edited by Kittenmittens; 04-26-2018, 01:11 PM.

  • #2
    Here are some of my thoughts on weapon balance:

    knockdown power is a bit high and the horizontal recoil should be lowered a bit. Other than that it's a good weapon- just not my cup of tea. That's a good thing though. What this weapon's introduction did was give players an alternative to the dual magnums that isn't a verbatim copy of them and suits different tastes/playstyles without being too much more or too much less optimal. Aside from the minor tweaks these could use- they're good and more weapons should be balanced with this kind of end-result in mind.

    dual 1858's and dual 1911's
    The recent Buff did them well, they're in a great place now and I commend TWI for making the change, however I still feel their balance compared with the 1911's is a little off. 1858's are slower than the 1911's to reload and have a lower mag-size but they're a little more accurate. Currently they have 156 total ammo (144+12) I'd like to actually see that reduced to 144 total (12 in a mag + 132 spare ammo) to give 12 mags total. 1911's hit the same damage per shot as the 1858's and that's not a bad thing considering it still hits all the right breakpoints for a low tier weapon. The 1911's have a larger mag size and are less accurate, this makes them more conducive to a 'spammy' style of shooting. Nothing wrong with that, it's all about how you choose to play- and I think that kind of variety in playstyle should be encouraged. Giving the dual 1911's a higher max ammo count of 192 (176 spare ammo + 16 in the first magazine) would help reinforce that kind of play style. They'll both still hit the same breakpoints, but now they'll both have the same total magazine count (12).

    We all know the railgun is a bit too strong, but balancing it fairly is difficult, there are a number of players that arn't very good with it, but those that are can make any difficulty (even modded ones) boring by completing trivializing every single large zed in the game. I think it's reload speed is fine, I'd like to see it's damage nerf'd to a point that it requires 2 shots to kill an SC on 6p using all left perk-skills on sharp instead of one. You can't just nerf it by 10% or ReU stacks will negate this. The damage nerf would have to be at least 30-60%. and to counter-balance this change you'll want to provide users with a higher max ammo count.

    The weapon that was buffed the wrong way. Recently it had it's damage buffed, and that was the exact opposite of what it needed. People are generally unhappy with it because it's not good for trash due to low mag size, it's not good for larges because of it's high stumble power that makes it counter-productive to try to help any ballistic perk with a large zed. It's reload speed is a bit slow, and it's debuff isn't strong enough to save ballistic perks even 1 bullet. What the hemogoblin needs is considerably less damage(but just enough to still kill trash with 1 shot), and less stumble power(in fact, no stumble power would be ideal!), a faster reload speed, and a stronger debuff. Also, it's initial damage and bleed DOT should be A LOT lower so that debuffing a large zed doesn't cause it to rage in the process.

    Medic SMG
    This weapon could use a buff, i actually haven't used it enough to say what exactly should be changed about it to make it better, but a slgiht damage buff and perhaps a spread reduction might do it some good. Also, this gun sounds like a pokemon sneezing. Please fix the audio.

    This weapon really didn't need it's last damage buff but it's not bad where it's at on damage either. What it needs is a weight reduction. The HZ12 is a great mag-fed weapon for killing trash at close range that is perfectly counterbalanced by it's higher spread and hefty recoil on double-shot- making it ineffective at longer ranges. If the m4 were brought down to a similar weight and given a slightly faster reload it would be a viable competetor to the HZ12 offering better accuracy at longer ranges. The M4 and HZ12 arn't going to compete with the DBS in a support loadout, They're not going to compete with an AA12 in the support loadout, they're going to compete with eachother and since you can carry the hz12 and a dbs and an aa12, there's no reason not to. The Vlad is perhaps underutilized as a good early-game choice that can later be swapped out- but the m4 is just too heavy and too slow to hit any of the marks support could use it for.

    m16m203, stoner, bullpup
    All three of these are essentially glorified ar15's the best option would probably be to remove them from the game, but I don't see that happening without upsetting people. What should be done to differentiate them more i'm not sure about. Buffing the stoner's damage to 40 would be too much given it's RoF which also hampers it as it contributes to ammo waste. They can't all be t4 weapons that compete with good weapons like the medar, scar, and ak12. What you could do though is utilize affliction powers to separate them a bit further from the ar15 they perform so similarly too. Perhaps giving the bullpup a fair amount of stun (since it's quite accurate) the stoner could perhaps do with more gun-hit power- perhaps more similar to the MedAR's values, I would even say increase the FireInterval to lower the RPM by a couple hundred thus reducing ammo waste. The m16's nade is super-weak and the falloff has an exponent of 3. Consider giving the weapon knockdown power and reducing falloff of it's grenade to 2. You should also change the way it reloads so that people arn't forced to reload the grenade launcher before the magazine, perhaps alternate firemode could be used to force the grenade launcher to reload when it's used and the launcher is empty.

    HM-Tech 101
    What? Yeah you heard me, this weapon is great for it's low weight and off-perk utility for healing teammates but it's damage is far too similar to the 9mm. A very slight damage buff would do it some good.

    Husk Cannon
    This weapon is OP beyond reason. It needs a hard nerf. Max Ammo is too high, damage is way too high, explosion falloff exponent is maybe too low. I can literally just left click constantly without aiming and clear HoE no problem, without using any other guns.

    Medic Shotgun
    This weapon isn't bad but it could use a mild buff to total spare ammo

    but this weapon isn't out yet! The latest WWAUT seems to indicate this will be even stronger than the railgun. I am strongly opposed to this. The sharp doesn't need another railgun, much less something stronger than the rail which is already overpowered. I suspect this will be counter-balanced with higher weight and cost like it was in kf1. Instead a weapon placed somewhere more in between m14 and ebr should be considered, the m107 is perhaps most suitable for this. The ability to 1-shot FPs is boring and OP.

    ... if this is stronger than the DBS you may have an OP weapon on your hands. I will reserve judgement until i've had a chance to try it though.

    This weapon is fine where it's at. It's mag size, rate of fire, and damage are well counterbalanced by it's wide spread and recoil.

    Again, this another weapon that is fine exactly where it's at.

    This weapon is perfect exactly where it's at and any changes to it's functionality would do it a lot more harm than good.

    This is another weapon that is exactly perfect as it is right now. Yes it's reload is a bit on the slow side, this is justified given it's damage, accuracy, and stun affliction power. It hits all the right margins without being overpowered or underpowered on sharp or slinger. It's drawbacks in reload speed and rate of fire make up for it's strengths in damage and accuracy at range. On slinger it lacks the stun power it has on sharp, but makes up for that with a faster (but not op) reload speed. If you so much as touch this weapon with any buffs or nerfs I will sell all of my precious weapons and inventory, uninstall, and refuse to ever touch anything made by tripwire ever again. Not even joking here. I'm sure a lot of medics and support mains feel the same way about the DBS. Also, there is no precious version of this weapon in the game, please add one.

    Dual Magnums
    Are fine where they're at, don't touch them.

    Dual Deagles
    Are fine where they're at, don't touch them.

    Dual 9mm
    Are fine where they're at, don't touch them.

    is fine where it's at, don't touch it.

    is fine where it's at, and aside from fixing the dud bug where the rpg can 1-shot fleshpounds by multi-hitting as the projectile falls after initial impact- this weapon should not otherwise be changed.

    This weapon is fine exactly where it's at now, the only change that ought to be made is giving it the ability to toggle off the laser sight with the firemode switch. (That little red dot is not accurate during sustained fire and can be really really distracting. Now I know why cats chase laser pointers.)

    So the only thing that really needs to change with this weapon is the audio. It's really quite close to how the weapon actually sounds, but in game, it winds up sounding like a wet-fart particularly in zed time. Some of you will be playing after reading this and start laughing because you realize it's true, that's ok. I'm sure TWI can just put the existing audio through a few filters to crisp it up a little a bit and it'll be fine.

    This gun is fine exactly as it is. Leave it alone.

    Could use a 10% damage nerf.


    (I know you're not concerned with perks in this thread, I just felt I should add these three things)

    The right skill tree is (mostly) bad. I think perhaps in a future update you should consider making the right side more about debuffs while keeping resilience and the entire left-side of the skill tree as is. This would allow players to choose between debuffing zeds and being more agreessive, or playing more defensively and buffing teammates while healing.Acidic rounds is a failure, poision panic is disruptive and weak, zedative is overpowered but extremely situational.

    Fix the wording on resupply pack and concussion rounds to accurately reflect what they do. Both provide teammates with the exact same amount of ammo, the way it's worded leads new players and even some old ones to believe otherwise.

    Perk is OP. I get that it's meant to make higher difficulties more accessible to newer players by being very forgiving and having very little in the way of aim requirements. I also get that it's high damage mitigation is necessary for making it playable for those who arn't particularly good at avoiding damage. However, a damage tank that is also one of the two fastest perks in the game is a bit silly. traditionally characters and classes that can facetank large amounts of damage are slower for the point of counter-balance. I think perhaps some of it's movement speed (outside of zed-time) should be removed. nerfing skirmisher's movement speed buff should go a long way towards balancing this perk better.
    Last edited by LazyTiger; 05-01-2018, 10:38 PM.


    • #3
      Just my personal opinion. Multiplayer HoE.

      Railgun - Too OP. A hitscan weapon that can 1 shot scrakes and 2 shots FPs from range. Fast reload and sharps cryo nades gives plenty of room for mistakes.
      Suggestion - Reduce the damage so it takes 2 shots to decap a scrake, but keep it enough so it can still 2-shot a FP. Reduce reload speed.

      Husk gun - OP. Very high damage for its fast firerate, AoE capability, and light weight. Does 240-ish damage against a gorefast/fiend with uncharged shots offperk. Can blow up hordes of small and medium zeds with ease. Can kill 6 man HoE FPs within a single mag. Has enough ammo to get through a wave with only this gun.
      Suggestion - Decrease damage, decrease firerate, and increase weight from 7 to 10. Also, increase the damage multiplier per charges from 0.7 to 1.2~1.3, to make it less spammy, but reward taking time to charge and make it more of a anti-FP weapon for firebugs. Also self-burn damage shouldnt be so high that demos die in a single hit.

      Microwave gun - Pushback is nice, but the damage is a bit lacking for its price and weight.
      Suggestion - Reduce price to 1300, reduce weight from 10 to 8.

      Along with the above husk gun suggestion, im thinking firebugs loadout decision should be something like this:
      Flamethrower : Excels against trash, terrible against large zeds.
      MWG: Slightly expensive sidegrade of flamethrower. Doesnt kill small zeds like flamethrower does, but better against gorefasts and some medium zeds. Can also fight large zeds to some degree.
      Husk gun: Excells against QPs and FPs, and generally effective against anything else. Has plenty of ammo but leaves with only 5 weights free.

      Mac 10 - Pretty fine as it is, a light weight tier 3 weapon useful as backup when you have the dosh. However the swap speed is little slow for that purpose.
      Suggestion - Increase weapon swap speed. Also, my knowledge in firearms is very limited, but shouldnt the stock be unfolded and used as shock absorbers when equipped and folded when put away, not the other way around?

      Dual 1858 revolver - The gun is in a good place after the recent buff, but I think the burst capability is a little too good when you consider its a T1 weapon and gunslingers gets them for free.
      Suggestion - Keep the high damage and firerate, but decrease the reload speed slightly.

      M4 shotgun, HZ12, and Double barrel shotgun - M4 isnt a bad gun by it self, but the heavy weight makes it not possible to carry it with the popular AA12+DBS combo, and its generally better to save up till you can buy the AA12 when you think about the price. I also feel the HZ12 and the DBS is a little too cheap for how strong they are.
      Suggestion - Decrease the price of the M4 to 650, Decrease the weight from 7 to 6, and revert the damage buff it received awhile ago.
      Increase the price of HZ12 from 750 to 900. Slightly decrease the reload speed of DBS, and increase its price from 650 to 900.

      Alternatively, the HZ12 could be changed to be a tier 3 weapon by increasing the price to 1100~1200, weight from 5 to 6, and increase the damage from 20x10 to 25x10.

      Seeker Six - Not enough burst damage to be a giant killer, reload is slow for trash clearing purpose, and ammo is limited to be used for both. Should be good at something when its a heavy T4 weapon used as demos main weapon.
      Suggestion - Turn it into a trash clearing weapon, be a counterpart to the RPG. Increase the blase radius, ammo pool, and reload speed, but decrease the explosive damage from 125 to 80. Each of the 3 demo weapon should have a apparent role for them: RPG being a giant killer, Seeker Six as anti-horde weapon, and Husk gun, with above suggestion, being the new generalist weapon good at pretty much anything.

      Survivalists - Not quite the jack of all trades type. More like jack of 2 trades at most with weaker stats compared to other perks.
      Suggestion - Skill tweaks: give a small reload boost to weapons not affected by the level 5 skills. IE Tactical reload skill gives elite reload to commando, swat, gunslinger weapons AND gives 10%(or 15%?) reload speed to anything else. Also give elite reloads to medic weapons via tactical reload skill, and elite reload to firebug weapons with heavy weapons training skill. Also make 5 extra weight as passives, and instead replace weapon harness with a skill which increases weapon swap speed by x%.

      These changes should make survivalists cover wide range of weapons, being able to fill multiple roles effectively, but still not effective as other "specialist" perks.

      Boss wave - Comes down to a very simple tactic once you get the hang of it: kite around the map or circle around objects till it dies. Abomination and King Fleshpound is easily counterable with these tactics. Hans and Patty requires some attention, but still pretty dull when they're alone once you kill the reinforcement zeds. Its also very hard to die when there's a medic in a team, unless you get a full rocket or gattling barrage in your face, or purposely get close to the boss with a knife in your hand.
      Suggestion - Aside from the usual zed reinforcement for each type of bosses, add a generic zed reinforcement that spawns endlessly during the boss wave which serves as a distraction to players, and somewhat prevent circling around object. Increase the ammo spawn to compensate.
      Last edited by Shadaaaa; 04-26-2018, 11:59 PM.


      • #4
        SWAT still seems really OP to me. The whole concept of armor eating 100% of damage makes him incredibly tanky, a SWAT player can basically ignore most damage they take while focusing on shooting.
        Combine that with the fact that he can solo scrakes and even FPs easily with the use of higher-tier weapons and flashbangs, plus the sheer amount of ammunition he can carry, it's the do everything kit that is by far the most self-reliant.

        It also can break the economy in some aspects. A lvl20 SWAT can start with 100% armor, the MP7, and a set of dual 9mms. Selling the MP7 and duals after wave one means one can easily afford any tier 2 and lots of ammo, and the armor isn't lost by switching kits so if one desired to be Support they still get an advantage as starting as SWAT. Having 100% armor and a full tier 2 on wave 2 is a huge advantage.

        I haven't given it much thought, but my best way to balance him would be to get rid of the armor absorbing 100% damage and just go to the simple "can't be grabbed by clots" thing. If you need a reason it's because a SWAT officer would have presumably been trained for crowd control or something.
        I'd also either shuffle the skills around so that in one set you must choose between the starting duals and starting armor, or I suggest to REMOVE the starting duals and one of the starting armors.

        I'd probably set the skills as:

        Heavy Armor Training (can't be grabbed, otherwise normal armor, start with 50%) / Tactical Movement (no change) Decreased grab or increased mobility, fair.
        Close Combat Training (no duals, just the handgun/knife buffs) / Tactical Reload (no change) Keep your primary going longer or rely more on switching, fair.
        Suppression Rounds (no change) / Cripple (no change) Each option increases power, but this way you can't have both, fair.
        Assault Armor (no additional starting armor, just capacity increase) / Ammo Vest (no change) Increase combat duration or increase survival duration, fair.
        Battering Ram (no change) / Rapid Assault (no more infinite ammo, with real time ROF and 100% stumble it's too powerful) Run through or shoot through, fair.

        Survivalist needs to get completely reworked if you ask me. Too many skills funnel that perk into replicating other perks, and it's not conducive to freedom of loadout or playstyle.
        Take the first skills, for example. Faster reload for Commando, SWAT, and Gunslinger, or faster reload for Demo, Sharp, and Support. Not only do those already set us up to HAVE to use those weapons together, but the fact we start with something random means we could pick the AR/SMG/Pistol skill and end up starting with a Mossberg. Not fun, not fair.
        The whole "make us switch between two grenades that are totally different from the starting grenade" skill is insane as well. As is I think you'd be an idiot to not pick the medic grenade over the molotov, but why isn't there an option to keep the HE grenade? But the worse sin is that the grenade change is also part of a larger overlying skill of increased healing vs increased carry weight. Increased carry weight should be alone vs the increased healing + medic grenade, but on the whole I see an issue with everything in the lvl 15 skill slot.
        And potentially the worst sin of all is the lvl20 skill set where we have zed-splosion, which is ok on it's own, or increased explosive damage. Increased explosive damage... Well, that would only be useful if we picked the demo reload advantage at the start and plan on using at least one demo weapon, however, since zed-splosion works no matter what weapon you use it's still the better pick. But I could say it still may make sense if it weren't for the fact that the lvl15 skills TOOK AWAY THE EXPLOSIVE GRENADE! What were you THINKING? Seriously? What was the thought process here?

        Make all the skills unbiased. Instead of choosing between faster reload with ABC or faster reload with XYZ, why not choose between faster reload for EVERYTHING or increased ammo capacity for EVERYTHING?
        Think about making it a truly neutral kit with all skills being as equally positive and negative as possible instead of making the Survivalist a pseudo medic or what is essentially a confused support with a penchant for explosives... It defies all logic IMHO.

        Oh, I generally play on 6-man Long games, either Hard if I'm lazy or Suicidal if I want a challenge.
        Last edited by Watcher-45; 04-26-2018, 05:06 PM.


        • #5
          Originally posted by Watcher-45 View Post
          SWAT still seems really OP to me. The whole concept of armor eating 100% of damage makes him incredibly tanky, a SWAT player can basically ignore most damage they take while focusing on shooting.
          Combine that with the fact that he can solo scrakes and even FPs easily with the use of higher-tier weapons and flashbangs, plus the sheer amount of ammunition he can carry, it's the do everything kit that is by far the most self-reliant.

          It also can break the economy in some aspects. A lvl20 SWAT can start with 100% armor, the MP7, and a set of dual 9mms. Selling the MP7 and duals after wave one means one can easily afford any tier 2 and lots of ammo, and the armor isn't lost by switching kits so if one desired to be Support they still get an advantage as starting as SWAT. Having 100% armor and a full tier 2 on wave 2 is a huge advantage.

          I haven't given it much thought, but my best way to balance him would be to get rid of the armor absorbing 100% damage and just go to the simple "can't be grabbed by clots" thing. If you need a reason it's because a SWAT officer would have presumably been trained for crowd control or something.
          I'd also shuffle the skills around so that in one set you must choose between the starting duals and starting armor. In fact, I might go as far as suggesting to REMOVE the starting duals, and even remove one of the starting armors.
          I will disagree on swat. for me its quite a squishy perk.
          The armor that absorbs dmg is good and all, but once its gone you no longer have anything special that can keep you alive.
          And economy wise it doesn't change much, saves money on armor that swat can either use for better guns or more ammo... or give it to the medic.
          And that he may seem OP on hard or sui is nothing to write home about, every perk is.
          On hoe the class just gets squashed like bug if he has big zeds on his ***.

          And to the guy who says railgun is OP... its bloody design was to be the most powerful one shot weapon in the game, and that you need damage skills to 1 shot kill scrake... on hoe even with damage skills (except for rack em up because reload speed is life) there's a chance that scrake will survive shot to the head and only lose his mask.. so much for that bonus 65% dmg increase +25% of passive.

          As skills go....
          Swats Fallback skill is just bloody worthless and only good for mentioned extra cash, it could be changed for something more useful... like an ability to carry a few more flashbangs.

          Commando eat lead is also worthless, being outclassed by hollow point.
          We had a few discussions about it...
          Some said for it to change from more ammo in a mag to a skill that lets you penetrate zeds (which i personally find even more worthless than eat lead is because of the ammo pool, just makes no sense)
          Or the added 2nd bonus to the ead lead, with rack em up V1 that will either increase dmg or reduce recoil on hit.
          (by V1 i mean each shot you hit to the head gives you bonus, but each miss reduces that bonus, not like the current rack em up which is V2)
          Or add recoil reduction overtime as you hold down the trigger for full auto, with ramp up time about 1.63 seconds.

          Medic smg as everyone pointed out makes no sense, does less dmg than pistol and has same recharge rate as pistol.

          Zed spawn rate intensity needs a bit of buff tbh, since everything seems too easy because of the zed speed reduction.

          Amount of Stalker and Crawler group spawn amount needs a hella of a nerf... this is quite a cheap difficulty spike when those 2 groups spawn with 10+ mobs and you just get kung fud in a second... just... no.

          Rioter needs a back hitbox. Makes no sense when his back is exposed and yet it counts as his armor, even l4d2 had it covered properly.

          Qp's spawn roar needs to be remade from scratch, since right now its even buggy as it plays wrong roar.. and the higher pitch is actually annoying to hear.

          Rubber banding needs to be set to top priority because its been plaguing the game for 2 years and makes it less enjoyable experience, hunted made a detailed report on that months ago.

          Medic right tree also needs a rework....
          Can be that left tree grants you with skills that increase player dmg resistance, add speed and help to remove toxic and afterburn faster. While right skill tree boosts could grand dmg buff, reload speed.... and 3rd doesn't come to mind lmao.
          Basically Defensive vs offensive buffs.

          Idk, nothing comes to mind right now... since we had some balance discussions over a month ago.


          • #6
            Personally, I don't fine the Husk cannon to be OP. It's powerful in solo and low player multiplayer, but when It gets to around 4-6 with big zed health increasing, it tends to fall more in mine with everything else. I think the undraw time for it should be quicker, as every other weapon can be put away quickly while the Husk cannon takes almost 2 seconds longer. Not good if you're trying to switch on the fly to save ammo. However, there is a bug with the weapon's projectiles.

            In multiplayer, not sure if it's due to desync, lag, or whatever, but after you fire roughly half the clip, the projectiles no longer spawn into the world after you fire and it still consumes ammo. I tried it in single player and had no issues, so it's definitely something going on with the cannon in multiplayer where the game thinks you're not firing and won't produce any projectiles into the world. The only way to fix it is to reload the cannon, but it's very frustrating when you're trying to kill a FP and the weapon won't send any fireballs his way.

            One last thing, whoever suggested increasing the weight to 10 must be out of their minds if they're really comfortable with being stuck with only a DIY flamethrower or spitfires. It's weight is fine as it is right now, and the flamethrower is a good pair for it. Not only that, if you're complaining about the self burn damage, that's the risk of using it when you're not a firebug. You have the RPG and seeker six which are already good weapons.

            Now, about the AF-2011s. Main reason I don't pick them up is that overall, their damage is still less than the deagles. Not only that, but with the small buff in damage to magnums, they seem to be even less attractive if you don't need the extra ammo. If they were on par with the deagles, they would be a good alternative. Otherwise, firing two M1911s stuck together isn't all that fun.

            This last point is fairly recent, but I found a weird bug with King fleshpound. Sometimes when he fires his laser, the player will still take damage from him even after he stopped firing. This happened once in a solo game, and I remember at one point KFP fired his laser before the animation finished and caught a couple people off guard in multiplayer. This might be due to a server desync but I'm not certain.


            • #7
              Bonecrusher block is a crutch. Allows low-skilled players to tank all the large zeds and most bosses on HoE by just holding block. Basically invincible with regen and a medic and trivializes the hardest content. I understand it's supposed to be the best defensive option but it's OP. You should never take less damage from a block than a parry.

              edit: I should add I'm talking about multiplayer where the zerk can just draw all aggro and hold block while everyone stands back and shoots.
              Last edited by MikeHoncho; 04-26-2018, 07:12 PM.


              • #8
                These effect both offline and online play - I’m speaking from experiences only on HoE.

                Map and Zed Spawns
                What determines if a map is easy or not and whether or not we play it are how fast the spawns are. At the moment a large amount of maps seem to suffer from a nice case of “Where the zeds at?” which lead to extremely slow and boring games. These are all given such a large Wave Spawn Period value that it almost slows zeds down to a trickle. It didn’t always use to be the case, maps like Prison and Black Forest were hit the hardest from the slow stick. They used to be really fast and intense when they were introduced. Some maps that need spawn increases: Prison, Black Forest, Outpost – we hate playing these slow maps. In general though if you want the game to feel harder, increase the spawn rate.

                Additionally I don’t know what it was in the recent update but Zeds are spawning a lot further away as well – really noticeable when you’re in the end of of SYG and have to wait 30 seconds for a Rioter to path to you….It would be nice to reverse this as it seems zeds are just spawning on the other side of the map.

                Med Darts
                It would be good if we had an Option to toggle locking-on when you ADS. There are LOTS of times when I don’t want to use it. Both for combat and healing.

                Stand Your Ground
                First and foremost: INCREASE THE TIME TO GET TO THEM PLZ. All the hold points are set to 20secs, this should really be like 30 or 40s. By the time you get to one half way across the map from the trader you have already lost half the dosh. At the very least, adjust them to the map’s size.

                There some places that are not feasible to hold and not locations that a sane team would not choose because of the number of entry ways and lack of lane site. And it kind of seems silly that a crack team of mercs would also choose such death traps to defend. They were randomly placed and they should be reevaluated based on actual likely hold spots. Additionally some are placed under a portal spawn so they always start to trickle down and nothing you can do about it

                I mentioned this before in a thread – he’s not hard and not easy - Just a tedious bullet sponge – especially on wave 1 or 2. Games where it would usually be 1 or 2 bloats as the stragglers is now replaced with 3-4 rioters slowly mincing towards you. They have not been balanced properly for all the classes on wave one – support and demo struggle immensely with them – support especially since you spawn with such little ammo for your shotgun – it takes usually 3 shots to take one down… but I’ll get to them later.

                There needs to be a more effective way of taking them out, and one that isn’t as depressing as kneecapping it (the cowards shot).

                Additionally why does a nade not just blow its legs off?

                They shouldn’t mince zeds and other QP/FPs when raged. This should really just be left to FP and KingFP.

                Guaranteed Win. Easy boss – not very well thought out and boring to fight (just a bullet sponge). Its rare anyone dies to this guy…If there is – its just that one guy that copped the insane damage 2nd/3rd phase spew attack.

                Has been untouched since EA – some of his skills could use reworking. He needs to spawn with more pump ammo, especially with the introduction of rioters.

                Penetration Skills – Doesn’t penetrate Zeds with Armor – as in the actual sense, will not penetrate the Rioter and damage him – something you think a skill called ‘Armor piercing shot’ would do. It would give meaning to take the skill and deal with issues of rioter a little better if the armor piercing shot actually damaged zeds with armor (Abom and Rioter).

                Zed Time Skills – I think the Support probably suffers a lot from this compared to other perks – It’s a very obvious choice to choose the realtime shooting over ‘penetration’. It would be good if Supports alternative skill would be something that integrated the above suggested changes to penetration – possibly something akin to its original perks where it would give dam/def AoE – but for penetration into armor. The lazy choice would be having realtime reload due to all the single loaded shots when reloading shotguns.

                Love this class, and it the current skill selection (LRLLL) is spot on but it could do with viable alternative perk selections because it’s very obvious which ones to take.

                I’m the guy that plays RRRRR Medic. All skill choices (apart from one) are perfectly fine, I love the way R-Med plays. Great survivability and damage output - great for clutching team in tight situations/running through zeds

                Acidic Rounds is still hot garbage.

                Eh – I’m not gonna touch it – it’s a disappointing ‘every class’ and as everyone has said countless and endless times, it needs a rework. It would be good for something not derivative and actually make it feel like its own perk.

                Husk Cannon
                Broken – both balance and mechanic wise:
                • Super OP – the damage just trivializes trash, FP/QP and bosses.
                • Never ending ammo
                • The charge shot has no place over spamming single shot
                • Spamming single shot eventually start firing blanks at the 10 ammo left mark
                • STILL WILL BASICALLY ONE SHOT YOU IF YOU ARE NOT FIREBUG (as described here…please change this bug…)
                Med SMG
                Useless – no direct upgrades from the pistol – doesn’t even heal better.

                I dunno what its purpose is – I thought it was to debuff and slow enemies? But it doesn’t and it doesn’t seem to trigger half the time.

                Needs to freeze better.

                More ammo plz, it runs dry so fast. I mean bullets not nades. The amount of nades are fine.

                I use the Xbow A LOT. I think it is perfectly fine the way it is. It shoots straight and accurate, does good damage, good when you know how to hipfire it as well. It’s a great sidearm to medic and even commando on some maps.

                People who complain about the stunning honestly don’t know how to shoot twice, because the 2nd shot will always stun a SC if the first didn’t, and it reloads pretty damn fast. SC heads are easy to track.



                If I think of anything else Ill just make another post lol.
                Last edited by Delta69er; 04-26-2018, 11:24 PM.


                • #9
                  This is mostly about online play and taken from a HoE perspective, unless stated otherwise.

                  Husk Cannon: I feel the draw time when putting the weapon away in any case is too long. The draw time for taking the weapon out is fine, but if you need to switch weapons on the fly you're gonna be put in a bind because of those two extra seconds. If it's increased by a second, it should be fine. Also, I know some may believe the afterburn damage is a bug, but it really isn't. There's a reason why the husk cannon is meant for firebugs (immunity to their own flames), and anyone else who tries to use it runs the risk of frying themselves. That's why I advise demos to avoid using it. Lastly, since someone made a mention that charged shots had no place, they're actually better at taking out big zeds and those around it in fewer shots than it would take for you just spamming it. I believe the fire rate was decreased before it got out of beta, but single uncharged may need a damage decrease to make charged shots more worthwhile.

                  Also, there's a serious bug with the firing of the cannon where projectiles won't be produced after half the magazine is gone. Say you have 40 shots with high capacity fuel tanks. The cannon doesn't produce anymore projectiles into the world around 20, yet it still uses up ammo as if it did fire a shot. This fixes itself when you reload, but the same bug keeps occurring when you're almost empty. Doesn't seem to happen on solo play, but with online play, it might be due to server lag, desync, or something related.

                  Microwave Gun: With the husk cannon in the game, it seems a bit pointless to use this. Flamethrower does its job better and the only niche this weapon has is the pushback ability. Not sure what it needs, but it needs something that will make it more attractive to use.

                  AF-2011: I feel they need to be more attractive when compared to the magnums. Sure, they have higher ammo capacity going for them, but since the magnums got a slight buff to damage when they were introduced, anyone who doesn't have issues with maintaining ammo won't find them as a good choice. Not only that, but even the dual AFs still cause less damage than dual deagles, which are a tier lower. If their damage was brought to that of the deagles, they could be a nice alternative.

                  QuarterPounds: As funny as it is to watch them butcher each other to death when they run in towards you, they should probably stop doing that. When they spawn enraged, there's a high chance they'll end up killing each other before even reaching the players, lowering the threat they're supposed to pose. It's still fine that they erase any other zed that's in their way though, forming the strategy to use them as a means to wipe out other trash zeds.

                  Zed Team Composition: I think the largest group of zeds that appear are usually crawlers and stalkers, and everyone has learned to hate them dearly because they always spawn in groups of 3-10. It's quite easy to see someone go from 100 to 0 in a few seconds due to getting body blocked by crawlers or constantly having stalkers in your face. Those two specific zeds should have their spawn rates toned down a bit and replaced with more gorefiends or bloats.

                  Stand Your Ground: Outside of the holdout maps, the game randomly places SYG objectives in places a sane person wouldn't stand in unless they had a death wish, especially during the later waves. These should be moved to places where a full team could have a reasonable chance to hold up, as well as having the sizes of the area objectives increased.

                  Seeker Six: I find it rather appalling that for a T4 weapon, it overall does less damage than the M79. It may be good for trash clearing and setting off multiple nukes in zed time, but seeing demos trying to use it on big zeds is rather off-putting and has at times led to teams being wiped due to the fact they should've taken the RPG instead since it has over twice the damage. One seeker rocket is enough to enrage a big zed on higher difficulties, and if the team instead prepared to deal with it, it can cause some complications. If its damage was increased a bit, it could make a decent T4 weapon.

                  King Fleshpound: I've seen this happen online and solo at one point, but I believe there's a weird bug centered around King Pound's laser. During online play, he fired his laser well before the animation of him doing so finished, catching 3 people off guard. We all had good server ping (below 100) and I'm still unsure if it was caused by rubberbanding or desync. In solo yesterday, I ducked under King Pounds laser and uncrouched when he stopped, yet the game still believed he was firing and I got killed by it. It only happened once and I hadn't gotten King Pound again as Patty took his place, but I hope it doesn't happen again.

                  Hemogoblin: Buff to damage made it more attractive, though the status affect doesn't kick in as much as one would like. I believe it kicks in quicker if acidic rounds are being used, but if the weapon's intention was to debuff zeds, it does a poor job at it and instead just kills them.

                  Demo's Fragmentation Rounds: This skill is the most unattractive skill on the demo's list. All of his other skills have some use, but this one competes with another that's the most obvious choice to take. Negating the one zed that's a direct counter to demos is too good to pass up. Demos are about causing great damage over an area, and while Frag Rounds does that by increasing the radius, it's also counterproductive in which it causes 30% less damage. That's not something Demos want. It could be a good choice if the damage falloff was lower or not there.

                  SWAT's Battering Ram: Yes, we've all laughed at how this one SWAT rushed in during zed time and knocked a raging fleshpound off his feet, but outside of that, battering ram has no real use. Compared to the other zed time skill, which allows for real time firing with no ammo consumption, battering ram is next to useless otherwise. Maybe if it was changed to incorporate real time shooting (while still using up ammo), it could be a choice between slow movement but infinite bullets, or real time shoot and scooting.


                  • #10

                    The survivalist IMHO should allow people to combine whatever classes together they want to create a perk with more variety, but lower strength than any of it's component classes at each specific thing.
                    However, you have to make choices between classes. What if I want to be a melee person who can dash in and out of fights and heal other berserkers? Or I want to make a demo who can use SMGs as well for crowd control? I'm limited by the skills as they are at the moment.
                    I'd suggest making each skill choice a choice between roles, for example "Do more damage to big zeds" vs "reload speed and ammo capacity" or something to lean people towards a big zed killer or crowd control. I've made posts in suggestions if you want more ideas.

                    Berserker is IMHO the strongest character in the game atm purely based around his survivability. He is almost impossible to kill if you know what you're doing, and can run away from threats pretty easily. If you can block FPs/Scrakes reliably he can reliably do 6P HoE games just by running away and picking stuff off and blocking any raging stuff that comes at him, which means the only challenge is "how quickly do I want to do this game/how many risks do I want to take?"

                    Seeker Six
                    What is the point of this weapon? For a T4 main weapon for the demo it needs to be really good and have a good place. I assumed that (given the demo has RPG) that the place would be crowd-clearing, but the time it takes to reload normally means that the M79

                    Feels very underwhelming to use. When fighting small zeds you don't have enough darts, and when fighting big zeds all you can do is keep them debuffed and hope your team kills them because you don't have enough darts to debuff and also deal a reasonable amount of damage with the darts, and you don't have enough time to weapon swap.
                    I don't know if it would be ridiculous to move the darts to a secondary fire and have a different primary fire to fire bullets or something with a larger mag? At the moment you just kinda stand there and wait 5 secs, fire off half a dozen darts, reload, then wait again while your team attacks the big zed.

                    Weapon variety
                    I personally far prefer it when a class has weapons which all look and feel very different. With some classes this comes very obviously (like medic or firebug) but others are harder to do (sharp/commando for example).
                    But even with the sharp (as it's what I'm more familiar with) you have the crossbow - 'infinite' ammo, silent, slow reload; Railgun - high damage, aim assist; EBR - rapid fire, mag reload; Winchester - shell by shell reload, lighter rifle for a secondary weapon. It felt really nice to have each weapon stand apart as a unique weapon, which is what's made the two new weapons a bit of a disappointment - the centrefire just feels like a Winchester with slightly tweaked stats and the M99 I imagine will feel like a railgun with slightly tweaked stats as well.

                    Upgrading Weapons
                    I know this hasn't come out yet, but I'm pretty worried about it. If you're playing with experienced players who work as a team and know what they're doing it'll be fine. Otherwise I see it being a really bad thing for the game.
                    At the moment when I've maxed out my loadout I just store money each wave (assuming I don't die). This means that if someone on the team dies or we get a new person join us we can throw a few grand at them and they'll instantly have a full loadout (or at the least, a usable loadout. If you spawn on the last few waves with basic weapons you're a liability).
                    Once we can upgrade our guns though, depending on how far you can upgrade it, I'll never horde money any more, because why would I keep £5K of cash on me when I could swap that for +5% damage for all my guns (or whatever). Which means if I die and my gun is lost then I won't have any money to replace it, and if my teammates are doing the same then the team is probably screwed.
                    To a lesser extent as well, if I'm playing HoE and see someone join who I don't think will be a benefit to the team, do I give him £1K to get a load of guns and then probably die, ragequit and waste the money, or do I buy that next upgrade for my RPG? At which point that poor new guy will definitely die within the first couple minutes of the wave when he ends up having to fight a fleshpound with an MP7 or something.

                    Favourite classes: Sharp/support/demo (not a stupid demo don't worry).
                    I don't like medics.
                    Mostly play on HoE thesedays.


                    • #11
                      Please go see my essay on why the VS-mode is broken:


                      Tried posting it here but for some reason doesn't work.


                      • #12
                        I play mostly Hell on Earth, and mostly solo. Occasional multiplayer or Suicidal. Any game length.

                        I would like to see the reduced recoil from Commando's "Hollow Point" skill be applied to "Eat Lead". Commando is pretty much perfect otherwise, imo.

                        I would also like to see the magazine bonus/level halved for SWAT. The perk is plain OP right now since you can just shoot bullets all the time without having to worry much about magazine capacity or whatnot. If I want to use smgs, I usually end up playing as Survivalst just because I don't like the high magazines, they kind of ruin the whole "tactical" thing the weapons have going for them, and just turns them into a bullethose.

                        I love the idea behind Survivalist, but it does need some work. I think it needs more unique skills, things that apply to most weapons/situations rather than specific ones. Survivability skills are a good example, but also things like incapacitation, penetration, reload speed (which already sort of exists), stuff like that.
                        Last edited by imnrk; 04-28-2018, 01:13 PM.


                        • #13
                          Odd Small things I just thought of that might be worth mentioning:

                          Gunslinger Bullet 'Resistance'
                          Doesn't really provide any protection at all...I dont think I've noticed any 'resistance' from patty or han's guns. I'd say give it a proper buff or just remove it.

                          Swat and Lack Night Vision
                          This is one of those classes where you would think they would definitely have night-vision, since its all tacti-cool and stuff. At the moment I think its only Commando and Zerk that has it, I dont think it would unbalance the game if this class got nightvision. Even survivalist could use it as well...

                          QuarterPound Mass Spawning
                          When the QPs were introduced, I was originally hyped because I thought we might have a more constant stream of heavy hitting enemies that would force us to move around and work together more. However the final implementation of QP and their spawning groups left a lot to be desired. Instead of having some heavy spawns between FPs and SCs, instead we got a giant mass spawn of QP and FP - I think one of the big ones is like 6QP and 2-3FP? It was pretty disappointing to say the least. Instead of a constant stream of harder zeds with a steady higher difficulty in HoE, we suddenly had our standard game with a sudden spike in difficulty. It feels pretty cheesy. I feel it would keep engagement higher if there were a more steady stream of more dangerous zeds rather than spikes.


                          • #14
                            Please buff stoner damage in exchange of other stats, maybe even lower magazine capacity to 40(still big, and with all magazine skills it's gonna be 100, for people who wants lmg with big mag). Can you try M14 as crossperk? Yes, it's gonna be the strongest weapon in commando loadout, but not as stronger in sharp's hands(other similarity is ak12).

                            Fix Pulverizer so it works with all demo skills, remove damage nerf from Fragmentation Rounds, so it's gonna be helpfull with pulv, hx, and seeker six(and Destroyer of Worlds maybe?). I found seeker six now kinda ok compare to rpg, the problem is that projectiles still just dissapear, same with husk gun. Destroyer of Worlds should start if demo started zed time with explosion, all skills should work like that, otherwise it's stupid waste of time.

                            M4 is bad because of single shell loading, no matter how fast it is, it's still slow. Let it load two shells instead of one with Tactical Reload. Maybe just buff med smg dart a little bit? Just a bit better than pistol would be enough.

                            Fix spitfire's animations, Mac 10 acts like a shotgun, doesn't have tactical reload either. Replace High Capacity Fuel Tank with tac reload, mb make ammo capacity as passive skill instead, Make microwave gun stronger against metal enemies(like new damn robots) or lower price, make more clear difference between flamethrower. Already taol about husk gun, projectiles sometimes just dissapear. Don't understand what's the point of it for demo, maybe make fire spread smaller(so firebug can you is at close range while demo atleast CAN USE IT), but with Fragmentation rounds bigger explosion. Firestorm is useless skill and like Ground Fire - not works with all weapons, that's not ok, do somesing about that. Firebug is supposed to kill crawlers but they just jump around. Would be good if Firebug had some skill that removes or prevents gas from appearing, and sloweds down zeds instead of make them panic. Would make "firebug noob players" more usefull, when they just spray and pray around. Pyromaniac doens't wotk properly with husk gun.

                            I don't care about 1858, it's just the fact that 1911 suck, ammo capacity, reload speed, even damage is meh. I would glad if you just change these guns tiers(and balance a little bit) Line 'em Up is useless because it's rare when zeds stay right behind eachother. Can you make "bullet bigger"? Idk how to explain that, bigger hit detection? Then it might become usefull.

                            Can you make Sharpshooters zed time skills more usefull? I just don't see them at all. Give Deagle and 1911 back, or even make pistols akimbo, but remove all revolvers, I would be happy. Already told about m14.

                            Just a suggestion about Surv. Perk should have "somesing that others don't have". We have perks with swaping time, move speed, etc. But what about throwing grenades faster? Using pump shotguns/lever action rifles faster? Ability to have some bigger weapons as akimbos? Not all of them, don't ask for somesing crazy, but AA12 akimbo is a real thing. Mb bring back supports area buffs? And please, no scientist perk, just reload all the guns in game faster is enough.

                            Swat is ok, but not really usefull on boss(same with commando). MB do somesing with armor skills, combine them, add "Gas Mask" skill, similar to Zerk's "Resistance" skill, just for armor. Let "Close Combat Training" and "Fallback" work on some small pistols(1911, med pistol).


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Delta69er View Post
                              Odd Small things I just thought of that might be worth mentioning:

                              Gunslinger Bullet 'Resistance'
                              Doesn't really provide any protection at all...I dont think I've noticed any 'resistance' from patty or han's guns. I'd say give it a proper buff or just remove it.

                              Swat and Lack Night Vision
                              This is one of those classes where you would think they would definitely have night-vision, since its all tacti-cool and stuff. At the moment I think its only Commando and Zerk that has it, I dont think it would unbalance the game if this class got nightvision. Even survivalist could use it as well...

                              QuarterPound Mass Spawning
                              When the QPs were introduced, I was originally hyped because I thought we might have a more constant stream of heavy hitting enemies that would force us to move around and work together more. However the final implementation of QP and their spawning groups left a lot to be desired. Instead of having some heavy spawns between FPs and SCs, instead we got a giant mass spawn of QP and FP - I think one of the big ones is like 6QP and 2-3FP? It was pretty disappointing to say the least. Instead of a constant stream of harder zeds with a steady higher difficulty in HoE, we suddenly had our standard game with a sudden spike in difficulty. It feels pretty cheesy. I feel it would keep engagement higher if there were a more steady stream of more dangerous zeds rather than spikes.
                              Mb give bullet resistance to swat(since it's supposed to be a tank perk), agree on nightvision, and QPs feels unfair overall, head health, damage, quantity of them running at same time.