Looking for Balance & Feedback

[Kosake]

Wow, there's a ton of pretty strong opinions here of which I support less than a handfull. I'd say the game is mostly fine. Your focal points should be:

Survivalist
Complete rework pls. Right now, due to the perk skills, you only ever get ersatz-versions of other classes and second grade at that. You should move away from "be a not-really %perkname%"-type of skills to something that works regardless of your actual weapons. I would replace his grenades with claymores and maybe give him some new trap-type toys to work with. A survivalist with a nasty trapper/"home alone"-streak i you will.

Abomination
Any class with move speed can solo him without taking a single point of damage on HoE. Not sure what to do about that, but right now the moment I see him spawning it's "free win"-time. First round has a higher mortality rate than bossfights against this thing.

Husk Cannon
A wee bit strong, there. Like, insanely strong. You have a high ammo count, both magazine and reload, it explodes trash by the dozen, it explodes FPs and it sets Scrakes on fire, provided they survive the explosions. I think it should be something like single-shot to 5-shot capacity, firing on the highest dmg level to provide spike damage at an reduced utility against trash hordes. Think along the lines of an intermediate RPG - less instant DMG, less AOE, more DOT.

Spitfire(s)
They are underwhelming as Firebug, they are underwhelming as Gunslinger and straight up useless when used outside those perks. My suggestion: Instead of firing what basically ammounts to a flare - low speed, low damage, high incendiary - give them actual incendiary ammo - high speed, high direkt hit damage, rather low chance to start fires. That way the Firebug has a way to get decent damage at high ranges - something, he lacks for now, husk cannon aside.

Clots
Make them a bit more dangerous pls. Maybe make them move in an irregular pattern or somesuch?

 

[Dr. Lethal]

uhm while i think the 2011's are a silly Weapon and i'm not entirely sure what they're for, they are a direct upgrade from Desert Eagles in every way but Piercing Power.
confus? more Damage, more CC Stats, faster RoF, more Ammo, you can punch more often... basically they're just better aside from that they are harder to control.
.

They are not a direct upgrade from the Deagles. Both guns have the same penetration and accuracy, but deagles do more damage per shot and have a faster RoF when dual welded. The only upside the AFs have is that a single 2011 can fire faster than a single deagle and they carry more ammunition. For a better picture, these are stats from the wiki.

https://wiki.tripwireinteractive.com/index.php?title=Dual_.50_Desert_Eagles

https://wiki.tripwireinteractive.com/index.php?title=Dual_AF2011-A1s

Each deagle does 91 damage as opposed to 53 for the AFs. I don't know where you got the idea where AFs have better stats, but those numbers don't lie. And if you don't need the extra ammo, dual deagles are still better and more likely to kill zeds quicker. Along with that, the magnums are still much more attractive since they always did a lot of damage and even got a slight buff in that stat recently.

 

[s5yn3t]

Each deagle does 91 damage as opposed to 53 for the AFs. .

You forgot to add that AF's does 53 dmg Per bullet... And it shoots 2 of them at the same time, so if both connect you deal 106 dmg which is higher than a deagle.
But because of that Af can't pass the rioter's helmet threshold as deagle can.

I will agree its not a direct upgrade to deagle... more like direct upgrade to 1911's.
and it bloody works well as a single primary gun for trash cleaning because of that ammo pool.

 

[Dr. Lethal]

You forgot to add that AF's does 53 dmg Per bullet... And it shoots 2 of them at the same time, so if both connect you deal 106 dmg which is higher than a deagle.
But because of that Af can't pass the rioter's helmet threshold as deagle can.

I will agree its not a direct upgrade to deagle... more like direct upgrade to 1911's.
and it bloody works well as a single primary gun for trash cleaning because of that ammo pool.

Does it do 53 per bullet, or do both bullets equal to 53 damage?
EDIT: Nvm, it's the former. Still, who needs extra rounds if you have good enough aim? Plus, the fact rioters are very annoying makes them more enticing to kill. Sure, you can always shoot his legs, but if it only takes the same amount of bullets to pop his head like a bloat's, it doesn't matter.

 

[s5yn3t]

Does it do 53 per bullet, or do both bullets equal to 53 damage?
EDIT: Nvm, it's the former. Still, who needs extra rounds if you have good enough aim? Plus, the fact rioters are very annoying makes them more enticing to kill. Sure, you can always shoot his legs, but if it only takes the same amount of bullets to pop his head like a bloat's, it doesn't matter.

lol thats the most retarted question i ever heard... Ofc you need extra rounds because of how many zeds there are.. And with a constant stream of fleshpounds and scrakes, you will chew through 500 and deagle ammo.

+ if you see a rioter and you use a single af2011 and have deagles... Don't be a slowass and switch to them, shoot a bullet into its head and back you go using the primary trash cleaner.

Anyway lets stop here. We are going offtrack and i don't want to clutter this topic with a pointless argument.
​​​​

 

[Dr. Lethal]

lol thats the most retarted question i ever heard... Ofc you need extra rounds because of how many zeds there are.. And with a constant stream of fleshpounds and scrakes, you will chew through 500 and deagle ammo.

+ if you see a rioter and you use a single af2011 and have deagles... Don't be a slowass and switch to them, shoot a bullet into its head and back you go using the primary trash cleaner.

Anyway lets stop here. We are going offtrack and i don't want to clutter this topic with a pointless argument.
​​​​

Lol screw you. If we had time to play together I'd show you my usual loud out, and I don't have issues with running out of ammo since I carry 2 duals and a 3rd gun.

Also, one thing I really want to see in HoE is a decrease in crawlers. Just about every game I play, they're the highest number of enemies I kill no matter what class. They're very annoying when in large groups and can lead to your deaths if they body block you while you're backpedaling. Get surrounded by a semicircle of them and you're dead. Stalkers arguably have the same issue. It's like the game just doesn't feel like throwing more husks or gorefiends at you.

 

[s5yn3t]

Lol screw you. If we had time to play together I'd show you my usual loud out, and I don't have issues with running out of ammo since I carry 2 duals and a 3rd gun.

lets go then fat boi.
I also carry 2 duals and a 3rd gun + medpistol.

 

[taiiat]

But because of that Af can't pass the rioter's helmet threshold as deagle can.

i didn't have that in mind so i will concede not entirely superior to the Desert Eagle because of that one Enemy.

And with a constant stream of fleshpounds and scrakes, you will chew through 500 and deagle ammo.
​​​​

that's certainly true generally - the thing you will hear most commonly from a Gunslinger is "crap i'm really low on Ammo hang on lemme get a couple Ammo Boxes then i can Delet those Heavies". hehe

 

[Dr. Lethal]

i didn't have that in mind so i will concede not entirely superior to the Desert Eagle because of that one Enemy.



that's certainly true generally - the thing you will hear most commonly from a Gunslinger is "crap i'm really low on Ammo hang on lemme get a couple Ammo Boxes then i can Delet those Heavies". hehe

Thing is, if you're leaving the GS to do all the heavy work, you aren't doing your part of you're able to kill a big zed. That's why they really shouldn't completely run out of ammo. Also, you're forgetting about the Centerfire, which for all intents is like a 3rd magnum with more damage.

 

[s5yn3t]

Thing is, if you're leaving the GS to do all the heavy work, you aren't doing your part of you're able to kill a big zed. That's why they really shouldn't completely run out of ammo. Also, you're forgetting about the Centerfire, which for all intents is like a 3rd magnum with more damage.

Yes, but with that you sacrifice a slot for a medpistol (not an issue if a team has a medic)

Can we stop derailing from the topic?
if you want to discuss your personal loadouts, do it through dm's or discord.

 

[Coffee009]

As someone who plays a ton of firebug, I feel like there's no reason to pick a Microwave Gun over the Husk cannon. I feel like it should atleast weight the same as the Husk cannon, or better yet, swap the weights since the husk gun gets a ton of ammo anyways.

 

[Buzzkillinton]

homogoblin is still hot garbage. not enough ammo..reload is too slow, healing is subpar given the other 2. needs its healing power WAY boosted to compensate for its stupidly slow weapon change and the fact that you cant carry it + 401 + med pistol. here is a way to differentiate it..give the homogoblin a spike heal..aka oh sht heal on some kinda timer. that would actually make it useful for bosses and big FP/SC spawn waves.

medic smg is garbage...in every aspect. the thing that MIGHT make it more useful is if it didnt recoil like it was a tank cannon.

zweihander is garbage, far too slow relative to its power. i.e. you take WAY too much incoming damage.

bullpup is useless. ar + dual 9mm with fallback is a better plan to get to the ak sooner.

players should be able to run over/through crawlers and stalkers. so tired of being constantly body blocked by this crap.

regular maps need ammo spawns adjusted for endless mode.

medic needs an oh **** heal. fp combos or hans being hans can out damage the medics healing. (see homogoblin)

swat mp5 sights are garbage

fisheye effect on m14 optic is stupid. that is a trijicon..not some junk Chinese coke bottle knockoff.

 

[slendyman123]

Remove survivalist... that's pretty much all I got. Ittl give everyone more HOE wins if there weren't so many survivalist mains UwU

 

[RaNdOmKiLs666]

Imo most thing in this game are pretty well balanced, but below are a few things that are underpowered or downright suck compared to their counterparts.

Hollow point rounds vs Eat Lead: Eat lead is pretty useless and effectively turns your build into a less effective SWAT, plus HPR is just overall more effective. I suggest replacing the skill with a new skill entirely called 'Armor Piercing Rounds'. Armor Piercing Rounds: Increase penetration of all Commando weapons by 1 (meaning they can pierce through a single target and hit 1 behind it) and increases damage by 25%. So now you must pick between piercing power or recoil control, the damage increase is now a standard at perk level 20+.

Medic SMG: not much to say here other then increase its damage by 20% and decrease its overall recoil by 25%, so it's not just a full auto 9mm pistol.

Microwave gun: No idea why such a mediocre tier 4 weapon hasn't been buffed by now. I suggest reducing its weight from 10 to 7, increasing its damage by 15%. This would surely be enough to turn it from mediocre to an ok weapon.

Trenchgun: This weapon just feels straight up worse then twin spitfires. I suggest increasing its reload speed by 10% and decrease its weight from 5 to 4. These changes will let it compete more with the likes of the spitfires.

M4: easiest way to fix this weapon would be to nerf it into a tier 2.5 and buff the HZ-12 to tier 3.

Survivalist: Delete all skills and rebuild it from the ground up.

MAC-10: increase the equip/unequip speed by 33.3%. Currently it feels to slow.

Freezethrower: Useless gimmicky weapon in its current form. I suggest increasing the freezing and ground ice duration by 50%, additionally the ammo count is a bit to low, so increase that by 25% and decrease its ammo cost from 45 to 40. Lastly increase its base damage by 20%. Now the weapon might actually be useable and not just a gimmick or joke weapon.

SS headshot damage passive: increase the percent gained per level from +1% to 1.6%. why? To encourage headshots even more.

Well that's all i could think of in terms of under performing weapons/skills, i probably missed a few, but couldn't be bothered writing out anymore.

 

[s5yn3t]

Imo most thing in this game are pretty well balanced, but below are a few things that are underpowered or downright suck compared to their counterparts.

Hollow point rounds vs Eat Lead: Eat lead is pretty useless and effectively turns your build into a less effective SWAT, plus HPR is just overall more effective. I suggest replacing the skill with a new skill entirely called 'Armor Piercing Rounds'. Armor Piercing Rounds: Increase penetration of all Commando weapons by 1 (meaning they can pierce through a single target and hit 1 behind it) and increases damage by 25%. So now you must pick between piercing power or recoil control, the damage increase is now a standard at perk level 20+.

Medic SMG: not much to say here other then increase its damage by 20% and decrease its overall recoil by 25%, so it's not just a full auto 9mm pistol.

Microwave gun: No idea why such a mediocre tier 4 weapon hasn't been buffed by now. I suggest reducing its weight from 10 to 7, increasing its damage by 15%. This would surely be enough to turn it from mediocre to an ok weapon.

Trenchgun: This weapon just feels straight up worse then twin spitfires. I suggest increasing its reload speed by 10% and decrease its weight from 5 to 4. These changes will let it compete more with the likes of the spitfires.

M4: easiest way to fix this weapon would be to nerf it into a tier 2.5 and buff the HZ-12 to tier 3.

Survivalist: Delete all skills and rebuild it from the ground up.

MAC-10: increase the equip/unequip speed by 33.3%. Currently it feels to slow.

Freezethrower: Useless gimmicky weapon in its current form. I suggest increasing the freezing and ground ice duration by 50%, additionally the ammo count is a bit to low, so increase that by 25% and decrease its ammo cost from 45 to 40. Lastly increase its base damage by 20%. Now the weapon might actually be useable and not just a gimmick or joke weapon.

SS headshot damage passive: increase the percent gained per level from +1% to 1.6%. why? To encourage headshots even more.

Well that's all i could think of in terms of under performing weapons/skills, i probably missed a few, but couldn't be bothered writing out anymore.

i have only couple things to say.

M4 is actually a strong weapon and has the fastest single shell reload, so nerfing it to lower tier makes no sense, and hz12 is already strong enough.

If any i'd like to see M4 weight reduced by 1 and ammo pool increased by 16 shells.

And armor piercing for commando is honestly quite worthless upgrade because of the large ammo pool.
The only reason it exists for other classes like sharp,support and slinger, is because they have less ammo to spare
(maybe not as true for support because of more room in bp for more shotguns)

We had some discusions on it, and there were couple ideas.

One idea was to add to the lead a rack em up V1 to it, that would either increase dmg decrease recoil with every headshot.
A dynamic variable that could give higher bonus that static hpr.

Or add an recoil reduction over time the longer you hold the trigger, with a ramp up time of 1.62 seconds.
​​​​
​​​​​

 

[flashn00b]

I feel like i should bring up my previous suggestion about making the singular M1911 a cross-perk weapon for Commando. I reckon that if the 1911s can't be useful on the Gunslinger (Dual 1858s, Winchester and Centerfire in their current state make them redundant), it can at least be useful on the Commando if we factor in High Capacity Magazines, Impact Rounds and Hollow Points

 

[Buzzkillinton]

Remove survivalist... that's pretty much all I got. Ittl give everyone more HOE wins if there weren't so many survivalist mains UwU

surv with DBS, rpg and med nades is quite helpful.

 

[Coffee009]

surv with DBS, rpg and med nades is quite helpful.

Hell yeah, I feel like I'm in the minority when I say that the survivalist is fun/useful.

 

[slendyman123]

surv with DBS, rpg and med nades is quite helpful.

Fair enough

 

[taiiat]

part two from me, the Perk Skills:

Commando:
Reload vs Magazine Capacity:
i guess i'm kinda biased away from Magazine Capacity in general but still, i feel like i would always be choosing Reload Speed over Magazine Capacity.
because either way i have to Reload sometime, so i might as well just make that faster. it's not like i only have to Reload 1/10th as often or something (nor would i expect that). since you'll be Reloading still quite often, it doesn't seem very useful to take Magazine Capacity.

Fallback vs Impact Rounds:
the only comment i have to make here is that it's the sort of thing you feel encouraged to switching back and forth depending on if it's near the start of a Match or later on.
that isn't bad perse, but it's how it is.

Damage vs Magazine Capacity:
the choice seems obvious. you get Damage and better handling (which is what i'd want, a more precision oriented choice), and even just overall that makes a lot more sense than a significantly larger Magazine. mostly because the only difference that's really going to make in my mind, is whether you can Kill Heavies with one Mag. but i'm not sure how much that really matters...



Support:
Magazine Capacity vs Reload:
this is a balanced choice technically, however DBS being unaffected by Magazine Capacity makes an obvious choice for me. not that i expect it to be affected by Magazine. it just solidifies it into a similar situation as on Commando - i'm going to be doing a lot of Reloading either way so i might as well speed all of that up.

Resupply Pack should clarify itself, it makes it sound like you need to take that for Allies to get Ammo from you each Wave. but it's just for them to get Armor each Wave. why is this button denoting a passive part of Support, exactly?



Medic:
Speed Darts vs self Speed: i personally feel like i always should be taking self Speed. whether that be to get in front of Allies to tank Damage for them faster, to get between Allies faster, Et Cetera.
but i think that's a just me thing?

Acid Rounds is still basically useless. it doesn't last long enough for the DoT to deal enough Damage that you'd care rather than just shooting one or two more bullets, and the Poison debuff is almost useless on anything you'd actually want to debuff with it.
ala the Medium/Heavy Units you'd want to debuff are either extremely resistant to it, or have huge cooldowns for it - most are both.
worse still is that the DoT might as well not exist because it takes the full duration for the DoT to Poison an Enemy, but you could do it much more effectively just by shooting a few rounds instead of a single Shot yourself.
basically the DoT is the entire point of the Skill, but the DoT isn't any better at anything than your Weapons already are.



Demo:
both High Impact and Armor Piercing Skills are not very useful. they only affect direct hits, not even something cool like hit and explosion when you hit or hit a weakpoint. which is what i would assume them to be, encouraging precision and shooting stuff in the face for extra Damage.
also High Impact doesn't affect the HX25 at all, at the very least that should be fixed. High Impact is also actually 25%, but the Skills menu says 20%. so the Menu is incorrect.

as always, Siren immunity is the obvious choice.



Firebug:
just like with Commando, choosing between Damage and Reloading less often doesn't seem like there's much of a choice here. especially since Firebug can already do a lot of shooting at once with most of the Weapons...

Napalm and Barbecue don't actually have the same Duration increase despite the Skills Menu reading as such.



SWAT:
Heavy Armor is cool and really good, but Tactical Movement doesn't really have a hope in hell of competing.

Battering Ram has no hope in hell of competing against Rapid Assault.


- - - - -

also while i'm here, a couple random things:
again perhaps increase the CC power strengths of the M4 Combat if you want to make it more appealing than it currently may be (i don't have any complaints but being something of a 'Sniper Shotgun' is still absolutely the way for it to stand out from the rest of the Shotguns).
instead of the Hemogoblin having a Dart Launcher at all, what if Alt Fire would shoot up to the entire Magazine as Heal Darts? hold it and it targets any Allies within view, when released it fires Darts at all of them. priority over everyone gets one before anyone gets a second helping, but whoever is lowest on Health has higher priority for second helpings. just a thought