What else can we do?
- Thread starter anthracy
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If multiple reports are given of a map being used for perk faming because they are exploitably easy, then its merely a case of removing them from the list. I'm not sure of the coding required for the white list, but I'm sure adding and removing maps is not hard at all.
When it comes to mutators, I've always reckoned that they should either be non whitelisted or the chosen enemy merely replaces clots stalkers and crawlers, but other specimens still spawn as normal. obviously in the case of clotted, it might simply see crawlers and stalkers replaced with clots.The whole point is to make the game more challenging right?
When it comes to mutators, I've always reckoned that they should either be non whitelisted or the chosen enemy merely replaces clots stalkers and crawlers, but other specimens still spawn as normal. obviously in the case of clotted, it might simply see crawlers and stalkers replaced with clots.The whole point is to make the game more challenging right?
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OP is wrong in this case when there are no exploits on kf-defence (afaik). the whitelist is used to control exploits, not prevent grinding. you can't prevent players from doing this, nor should you. it's not so easy that you can always beat suicidal, I've watched noobs fail at it over and over again, they don't even expect to make it past wave 7.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again,
you can't fix stupid, and you can't force players not to suck.
what you can do is prevent certain people from playing at all, and if you want to limit your users this way, then go ahead and run your own server, or develop your own game. if the server population prefers kf-defence-b2 on bloated suicidal, the only thing that can change this is you and other admins running servers with different maps. which there is obviously no shortage of, if you can easily find other servers with maps you want.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again,
you can't fix stupid, and you can't force players not to suck.
what you can do is prevent certain people from playing at all, and if you want to limit your users this way, then go ahead and run your own server, or develop your own game. if the server population prefers kf-defence-b2 on bloated suicidal, the only thing that can change this is you and other admins running servers with different maps. which there is obviously no shortage of, if you can easily find other servers with maps you want.
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How about they get taken off now
Pretty sure they can blacklist them server side without having the clients update.
whoa there, let's not be too hasty. important steps like this should be carefully considered before being take.
As i say, couple of months of intense deliberation should do it.
i don't agree, as you can exploit a lot of the official maps in certain circumstances, phaps more than a lot of customs i've tried.
experienced players shouldn't worry too much about the grinders who get high perk levels for minimum effort, bottom line is they will join suicidal (or even hard) servers, get cained, get embarrassed, get bored and stop.
Achieving top levels cheaply is as hollow and meaningless as they are; they're not playing for the love of it and wont stick around.
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gusone's right that if you remove one noob attraction another one will just pop up to replace it, but does that mean we shouldn't make it difficult for them?
This is the only reason I put the KEPT together.
This is the only reason I put the KEPT together.
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So I guess a lot of people are missing the point that was brought up fairly early in the thread...
What do you guys feel about blacklisting the SPECIMEN ONLY MUTATORS?
Updated OP.
What do you guys feel about blacklisting the SPECIMEN ONLY MUTATORS?
Updated OP.
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like many of us were discussing in various other threads, leveling maps like Defence need to go....side note, why is Concert Hall still on the list?!......point is why even have a whitelist in the first place if you're going to allow cheap maps on them? the whole reason why the whitelist was added was to crack down on people cheating the system to level perks and farm achievements. yet people are still finding maps to cheat on.
people say "you take away one leveling map, then another pops up....you can't stop it". well, you sure can stop it! it just takes some effort, which the whitelist has received very little of.
the ideal solution? NO custom maps allow for leveling until they are deemed "good enough" to be added as "stock" maps. the "stock map" list has been increased from what 5 to 15 now, in addition to inlcuding several QUALITY custom maps? if you are a mapper and you want the priviledge to allow leveling on your map, then make sure it isn't extremely easy or exploitable. YOU should be ashamed of your work if it makes the game rediculously easy, and you should have some pride and go back and make the improvements instead of whining that TW is asked you to fix problems with it before it can get fully whitelisted. so, point is only STOCK maps allow for leveling. while it may only be a fraction of available maps, it will be the best of the best that received the most attention in making them as exploit-free as possible and as challenging as possible. as more and more quality customs are produced, just increase that list of stock maps.
as for the rest of the custom maps, allow for perks without leveling. you're a level6, cool you can use your level6 perk but you just can't level. people make the arguement that people will only play if they can use their perks, so there you go, perks enabled. the real arguement that should be made is that maps will be appreciated by players regardless of whether or not you could level on them.
you should be playing the map for the simple enjoyment of playing the map. if you need other incentives like the ability to level, then you've not accomplished anything in your map. if players' only incentive for playing the game is to level, then they have 15+ stock maps that they can go level on without cheating the game. if you're a mapper, shouldn't your sole purpose be for people to enjoy and appreciate your work, and not worrying about leveling? isn't that the point, to set your work apart from the other maps out there? if you're map is good enough to get people to play it without having to worry about whether or not they can level on it, then your mission is accomplished in that you got players to appreciate your work. my opinion is worry about that first, then add leveling as an extra bonus. heck, maybe if more mappers had that attitude, we'd have more than just a few quality custom maps made?
sure it's "just a video game", but your still cheating so how sad is that? you're cheating at something as unimportant as a video game...... for the majority of people that play the game right, they deserve the respect from the rest that everyone is forced to play the game appropriately. or else just dump the whitelist concept in the first place and let maps like KF-Leveling come back to populate cheat servers 24/7
and it's not like there haven't been any people finding and reporting bad maps. there's just not been any action taken once the issues have been reported. maybe that will eventually change.....
people say "you take away one leveling map, then another pops up....you can't stop it". well, you sure can stop it! it just takes some effort, which the whitelist has received very little of.
the ideal solution? NO custom maps allow for leveling until they are deemed "good enough" to be added as "stock" maps. the "stock map" list has been increased from what 5 to 15 now, in addition to inlcuding several QUALITY custom maps? if you are a mapper and you want the priviledge to allow leveling on your map, then make sure it isn't extremely easy or exploitable. YOU should be ashamed of your work if it makes the game rediculously easy, and you should have some pride and go back and make the improvements instead of whining that TW is asked you to fix problems with it before it can get fully whitelisted. so, point is only STOCK maps allow for leveling. while it may only be a fraction of available maps, it will be the best of the best that received the most attention in making them as exploit-free as possible and as challenging as possible. as more and more quality customs are produced, just increase that list of stock maps.
as for the rest of the custom maps, allow for perks without leveling. you're a level6, cool you can use your level6 perk but you just can't level. people make the arguement that people will only play if they can use their perks, so there you go, perks enabled. the real arguement that should be made is that maps will be appreciated by players regardless of whether or not you could level on them.
you should be playing the map for the simple enjoyment of playing the map. if you need other incentives like the ability to level, then you've not accomplished anything in your map. if players' only incentive for playing the game is to level, then they have 15+ stock maps that they can go level on without cheating the game. if you're a mapper, shouldn't your sole purpose be for people to enjoy and appreciate your work, and not worrying about leveling? isn't that the point, to set your work apart from the other maps out there? if you're map is good enough to get people to play it without having to worry about whether or not they can level on it, then your mission is accomplished in that you got players to appreciate your work. my opinion is worry about that first, then add leveling as an extra bonus. heck, maybe if more mappers had that attitude, we'd have more than just a few quality custom maps made?
sure it's "just a video game", but your still cheating so how sad is that? you're cheating at something as unimportant as a video game...... for the majority of people that play the game right, they deserve the respect from the rest that everyone is forced to play the game appropriately. or else just dump the whitelist concept in the first place and let maps like KF-Leveling come back to populate cheat servers 24/7
and it's not like there haven't been any people finding and reporting bad maps. there's just not been any action taken once the issues have been reported. maybe that will eventually change.....
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Hell yeah, lol
Imo leveling should be allowed only in maps which COULD qualify as being one of the stock maps, even if they werent actually added. Theres no way Defense would be accepted as a stock map, neither would doom2 or any other leveling map. Therefor leveling should be disabled there. However maps like LongDarkRoad by JustFilth seem like they could actually make it, by graphics, challenge and design -> leveling allowed.
If you REALLY like a map just because its fun to play, then you wouldnt care wether perk leveling was allowed or not.
And another thing. People who play these crappy maps ask why would we care? Well, to me its kinda bothering that when Im trying to find a decent suicidal server to play on, 95% of the servers are running 24/7 doom/defense/arcadeshopping... not to mention half of hard difficulty servers. And when ever I join a server which is NOT running one of the above maps at the moment, some nubbie joins in with his friends and votes the map on -_-. Sure, if you blacklist these maps, they will find another ways to do easy leveling, but I dont care as long as it doesnt force me to play on any badly made maps just because these nubs cant handle anything harder. But if leveling was allowed in stock maps only, it would be much easier to fix any glitches they were using to level up upon.
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Suggested this a while back and most were like 'nnnnnuuuuuuuuuuuu.' I always thought Clot Buster was a cheap mutator to use, despite what else shows up. It's also a terribly boring mutator.
Anyways, on Defense....we got a new friend playing KF recently. He's not the best team player in the world, but he's been shooting up in ranks lately and we've all been like "How?"
Turns out it's Defense. He's put dozens of hours into playing just that map.
Is it a coincidence that after a good month of playing the game, he's still the worst player in our group, and still does all the nono's like going to far out and getting killed...or failing to know how to deal with getting surrounded?
I don't think so.
Defense is crap from a gameplay stand point, but at least it's one rung above Doom2. Ban it from the whitelist or don't, I could go either way. If TWI does enough pruning from maps they originally thought were hard enough...maybe the leveling servers will at least be using a map that's partially challenging.
Seriously though. No spawns inside the fortress itself. That should have been red flag the first time.
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The motivation to use these "lame exploits" comes from their (the killing floor playerbase) motivation to level grind. If you remove the motivation to level grind then maybe they wont be so absorbed in grinding their levels that they don't experience the variety of maps and the variety of gameplay that this game has to offer. The question is how to remove the motivation to level grind.
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No you wont...
Why do you want to ruin it for everyone?
Like seriously, can't you just leave it be or will you jump at anything that makes tedious grinding a little bit easier?
Guys like you make me wanna get rid of this whole "whitelist" concept so you can't shove your idea of how to play the game down others throats.
And your reasoning that players who "grinded their perks to lvl 6 on leveling maps ruin your game so let's make leveling up even more harder and time intensive" is ridiculous.
Just think about it for 1 second and you'll see why.
You can't force people to "not suck" and levels do not reflect the skill o a player in any way, no matter how many other things you want to see banned.
Jeez.
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i'll rephrase this to a correct statement......it's not "everyone" people like us would ruin the game for. the people it would affect would be the extremely small minority of players (obviously "everyone" is poor word choice used to strengthen your own stance and skew reality) that cheat their way through the game and then use the excuse "don't ruin our game" or "don't tell us how to play". don't refer to everyone when it isn't everyone. just one person alone saying "cheating is wrong" defeats your ability to claim that "everyone's" game would be ruined.
it's people like you who turn the blind eye to players cheating the game's system or even you, yourself who takes part in cheating, that got the whitelist put in place to begin with. it's not "our idea" of how to play the game, it's the game's idea of how to play the game. according to the "game" (please refer to the EULA), any cheating or exploiting of the game is strictly forbidden. therefore, anyone who attempts to argue that we are incorrect are admitting that they are voilating or supporting the violation of the EULA all agreed to upon purchasing the game. my country has laws that all citizens must abide by. do you smoke illegal substances and then when the police come to your house and arrest you, you actually tell them "don't tell me how to live my life" or "you can't force me to live the way you want me too"? because that is essentially what you just said. if you want to smoke weed, then move to the Netherlands. if you want to cheat (leveling/farming) at a video game, then go play TF2, but as for THIS game, most of us have something called morals and we don't appreciate cheaters.
Just think about what you just said. in reality, perk levels SHOULD reflect the skill of a player as that's their sole purpose in the game. that's why they are called LEVELS as you are to progress to achieve these levels. progression is the same as improvement. therefore, you improve, you progress, you move up in levels, and as a result your advancement in levels earns you improved abilities and perk bonuses. you are right in saying that in some cases levels do not reflect skill and that is because those players cheated their way through the game and never progressed or developed any skill. they did not EARN their levels, therefore they should not be rewarded with the bonuses that come with the advancement in level.
this really isn't a difficult concept to grasp for most people, but apparently some still pointlessly attempt to defend something that is impossible to defend.
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I agree with everything you said.
crap players with high levels are starting to piss me off.
what the hell is a level 6 commando doing with a flamethrower? for example.
there completely clueless and only add difficulty.
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Now thats wrong.
People tend to learn, right? Playing Defense 24/7 is like playing the same tune on a guitar 24/7. You wouldnt learn anything new. But if you tried playing different tunes every day you could become a pro eventually. Same thing with the maps, play different maps on different difficulties and eventually you WILL become better. Unlike playing the same map and doing the same things over and over.
So yes, you CAN force people not to suck
, and the levels and difficulty you play on will also reflect your skill eventually. You might say we werent talking about the difficulty, but if you think about it, defense is like beginner no matter the actual difficulty setting.
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And you're here to complain about it immediately. I don't understand you. Are you having a hard time leveling or something? Are you just jealous? Do you have a vendetta against mapmakers? Your entire post can be summarized as "STOP HAVING FUN, GUYS!"
The game is already experiencing dwindling player numbers and here you are, once again crusading against some of the most popular maps. Custom maps are one of the games' big things and you're trying to cut it down. It's going to make people get frustrated with the community and leave. You'll probably say "Good riddance, didn't want to play with them anyway!" But that's what most elitist communities say as they push away most of their new members.
If you keep this up, mapmakers are gonna say "Screw this community" and move on. I know I'd be pissed if I made a map for fun and enjoyment, but had a bunch of people whining that "Its too easy to level up on it!" and trying to get my hard work banned. You're basically spitting in the mapmaking community's face here.
Yup. And by doing it, they've showed that if people whine enough about things, TWI will cave. Thus anything you don't like in this game, start complaining about nonstop. It creates a whiny community, ripe for trolling, discourages new content, and overall creates an atmosphere that's hostile to newbies and casual gamers who are just looking for fun.
Agreed. But by humoring him before, they more or less gave him the green light to do this.
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I love threads like these. They make me glad that I don't spend enough time playing video games to give a toss about levelling and how people go about it.
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