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Turning Foliage on Low... Cheap?

lol...some of you need a lecture in what is human nature...
I understand that humans are adaptive creatures, who can use any tool as a weapon in their fight for survival, virtual or not. It doesn't mean I can't distaste what competitivity does to gaming. It can be very toxic and "gamey". It's real turn-off and ruins the fun for me. The honor and valor in combat - as I understand it - comes from beating an opponent who's fighting you under same conditions. If you change conditions by turning off foliage to gain an edge you prove nothing by beating anyone as conditions are different. Games aren't real life, so real life rules shouldn't apply. I think this is the source of the problem - people don't care about having a good fight. They just want victory and they'll aim to get it at all cost. You really don't see how destructive this is?
 
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I understand that humans are adaptive creatures, who can use any tool as a weapon in their fight for survival, virtual or not. It doesn't mean I can't distaste what competitivity does to gaming. It can be very toxic and "gamey". It's real turn-off and ruins the fun for me. The honor and valor in combat - as I understand it - comes from beating an opponent who's fighting you under same conditions. If you change conditions by turning off foliage to gain an edge you prove nothing by beating anyone as conditions are different. Games aren't real life, so real life rules shouldn't apply. I think this is the source of the problem - people don't care about having a good fight. They just want victory and they'll aim to get it at all cost. You really don't see how destructive this is?

Don't blame competition. Most competitive players want exactly what you are proposing here, which is BALANCE.

However, if the developers cannot ensure balance or have no interest in creating methods that support it (as well as modders/community), then all of these conversations are for naught, because -- as it stands, you have imbalances that are supported by the game itself. Everything else, then, is just a rant, and does nothing to directly FIX THE PROBLEM.
 
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Don't blame competition. Most competitive players want exactly what you are proposing here, which is BALANCE.
There are various levels of competition. On the basic level competition - the most common of each of us to encounter - is understood by beating your opponent, forgetting what methods are being used to achieve this goal. I see it in every game.

Everything else, then, is just a rant, and does nothing to directly FIX THE PROBLEM.
While it's true in terms of the game itself, it's not true in terms of what's right and what's wrong. How people use tools provided to them is their own decision. One they make consciously. People are creating the problem.
 
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There are various levels of competition. On the basic level competition - the most common of each of us to encounter - is understood by beating your opponent, forgetting what methods are being used to achieve this goal. I see it in every game.


While it's true in terms of the game itself, it's not true in terms of what's right and what's wrong. How people use tools provided to them is their own decision. One they make consciously. People are creating the problem.

I see that my sentiments are lost on you -- even though I have the feeling that we agree on some fundamental points -- we just choose different angles of approach.

That being said, good luck with whatever it is that you're trying to achieve, then... I think. :confused:

...

People have doors on houses to stop unwanted people/elements from breaching the confines of their living space. Pleading with people or announcing to them that they are the problem for you needing a door to block intrusion, and admonishing them for trespassing, when you have decided not to install a door, does very little to stop them from entering your domicile.

Just as telling gamers that THEY are the PROBLEM will do little to solve the game's issues.
 
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It is not strange if competitive people turn the grass off as in the eyes of a true competitive player, the grass is an inconsistency that has no place in competition. Like random artillery or "battle chatter", it just has no place.

The biggest upset in RO2 about leveled playing field etc is the progression system, turning the grass of is way more fair than just being high level.
 
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That being said, good luck with whatever it is that you're trying to achieve, then... I think.
I don't aim to change the world with my posts. Forums exist to put down thoughts. More or less desireable. I simply see the reality around me and have no problem in stating it.

Just as telling gamers that THEY are the PROBLEM will do little to solve the game's issues.
It doesn't make it any less true. To channel positive behavior you have to design game's mechanics in a specific way, one that won't allow to use exploits and will support desired results (like teamplay). Think about the chess - you can't exploit them.
 
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It is not strange if competitive people turn the grass off as in the eyes of a true competitive player, the grass is an inconsistency that has no place in competition. Like random artillery or "battle chatter", it just has no place.

The biggest upset in RO2 about leveled playing field etc is the progression system, turning the grass of is way more fair than just being high level.

Imagine a game of paintball played in total darkness on a cloudy night, where both teams are made up of physically fit ( fast machines ) players, but one team has a couple of lardasses ( slow machines ) with night vision.....

Not a perfect analogy, but close enough to highlight how cheap it really is!

Shooting games need a level playing field to be forced, or they are inherently unfair, and will continue to attract sadacts who like to dominate by exploiting poor design decisions.

Argue all you like, but it is what it is.
 
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comparing the absence of grass with the use of night vision is the worst of all exaggeration i have read in this threat...:rolleyes:

Grass dosent hide you completely and someone who knows what "silhouettes" are and who knows how that stretch of land looks without enemy presence ofc will find and shoot you and laugh because you where stupid enough to think you can hide in foot high gras...

Its the same as suspecting someone of cheating becaue they shoot you in smoke...smoke isent a wall. If i see you run in i OFC will try and lean a bit since i know most have the same running speed and i might have a chance to hit you.

dominate by exploiting poor design decisions

and here i am and thought we allready clarified that the draw distance of grass is a engine limitation present in all games...
 
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Most competetive gaming, or "pro gaming" was and will always to get the best and easiest way to play the game without enabling hax.

This dates back to my experiences with competetive pro gaming in Counter-Strike Beta times, when people set the texture resolution per cvar so low that there basically weren't any textures there any more.

Foliage turned down on ArmA 2, keeping the graphic settings low to keep the frames as high as possible in next-gen games. All of that stuff is there. And will always be there as long as there are graphic settings in games. (Thats why in pro gaming LAN tournaments you have and will always get a preconfigured computer)
 
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In any game there are rules
If you can not meet the rules you can not play - simple
If the basic rule for RO2 is that you can turn off smoke ,grass , shadows and haze TWI should say so .
We the players can talk about what is right all day long but if TWI does not set out a basic set of RULES
There is none
It up to TWI
All we can do is follow the rules as of now there is none .
 
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Creating a fair level playing field for all players is a very difficult thing to do mainly because of the reasons pointed out by both Das Bose and r0tzbua concerning what people actually do versus what you want them to do in order to create that level playing field for everyone.
Where you win because you were actually better than the other team and not because you removed the smoke and they didn't even know it could be done.

The reality is more often than not as r0tzbua has stated due usually to a very small minority who feel its justifiable to use every means possible to subvert rules or settings if they are not specified in detail by an adjudicating body such as a league or ladder.
Which means that you end up with a situation where the rules and settings by ladders and leagues go into great detail in order to avoid any confusion or loop holes and if possible force players via the use of server restrictions or mods/mutators to play to those rules.

More often than not even if they are specified they are ignored until that player is caught or in some way discovered.
At which point they then begin the process of claiming "everyone does it" or "but it was not specifically stated I could not do it" or my favourite "Your rules suck".

Yes it may appear naive for the admins of tournaments, leagues or ladders to want players who compete to play with a degree of sportsmanship and fairness towards their fellow competitors in a video game but in reality it is an aspiration that the overwhelming majority of every games players express when competeing even in a friendly match.

"Can we all play with the same settings (within reason) and enjoy a game where the winner wins because he is actually a better player."

These forums are no different to that of many other games where the vast majority wish to see parity within competitive matches so that results are based upon the skill of a teams players and their abillity to work as a cohesive unit and NOT upon how well a their knowledge of the engine allows them to unlock, turn off and generally mess with the game to degree that the only thing left to see is the opposing team standing naked at the end of the map, who meanwhile actually think they cannot be seen because they are hiding behind that wall.

As I have said many times before "Just because you can do something is not sufficient enough reason to do it"

Life is about choices, so claiming I stole the car because the doors were open or I stole that money because the safe was unlocked, whilst being extremes and being actual crimes, none the less leave those effected by players who deliberately go out of their way to circumvent rules and settings with the same reactions as a victim of such pretty crime.
Angry, cheated, robbed and victimised.
Therefore I personally have no sympathy with any player who feels its "ok" to "exploit" various game engine loop holes or "sneak by" rules or settings especially in competitive match play.
 
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i have NO doubt you people can go on with this kindergarten stuff ad infinitum. :rolleyes:
I find it amusing you say that. Increasing gamma to see better at night is the same as turning foliage off to get an "advantage". It also fits perfectly into "night vision" example the previous poster gave. Your response truly shows lack of arguments when you have to resort to argumentum ad hominem, which is useless no matter how you look at it. Since you act that way I am done answering your posts.
 
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To channel positive behavior you have to design game's mechanics in a specific way, one that won't allow to use exploits and will support desired results (like teamplay).

How does designing games mechanics channel "positive behavior"? Somewhere in this oxymoron sentence is a valid point.
Feel free to post whatever. But in my opinion all this higher moral crap is an unsolvable angle of any kind of solution. Keep the focus on the real problem.
 
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I find it amusing you say that. Increasing gamma to see better at night is the same as turning foliage off to get an "advantage". It also fits perfectly into "night vision" example the previous poster gave.

look...the whole topic was basically over 4 pages ago. After thats its like looking at little kids pointing fingers at various directions crying foolplay..and thats that. i came to the same conclusion regarding you folks running in circles not really offering new insights nor a good basis for a discussion. Its a deadbeat topic in a deadbeat threat. NOW GIMME BACK MY LOLYPOP !! :rolleyes::D
 
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Creating a fair level playing field for all players is a very difficult thing to do mainly because of the reasons pointed out by both Das Bose and r0tzbua concerning what people actually do versus what you want them to do in order to create that level playing field for everyone.
Where you win because you were actually better than the other team and not because you removed the smoke and they didn't even know it could be done.

The reality is more often than not as r0tzbua has stated due usually to a very small minority who feel its justifiable to use every means possible to subvert rules or settings if they are not specified in detail by an adjudicating body such as a league or ladder.
Which means that you end up with a situation where the rules and settings by ladders and leagues go into great detail in order to avoid any confusion or loop holes and if possible force players via the use of server restrictions or mods/mutators to play to those rules.

More often than not even if they are specified they are ignored until that player is caught or in some way discovered.
At which point they then begin the process of claiming "everyone does it" or "but it was not specifically stated I could not do it" or my favourite "Your rules suck".

Yes it may appear naive for the admins of tournaments, leagues or ladders to want players who compete to play with a degree of sportsmanship and fairness towards their fellow competitors in a video game but in reality it is an aspiration that the overwhelming majority of every games players express when competeing even in a friendly match.

"Can we all play with the same settings (within reason) and enjoy a game where the winner wins because he is actually a better player."

These forums are no different to that of many other games where the vast majority wish to see parity within competitive matches so that results are based upon the skill of a teams players and their abillity to work as a cohesive unit and NOT upon how well a their knowledge of the engine allows them to unlock, turn off and generally mess with the game to degree that the only thing left to see is the opposing team standing naked at the end of the map, who meanwhile actually think they cannot be seen because they are hiding behind that wall.

As I have said many times before "Just because you can do something is not sufficient enough reason to do it"

Life is about choices, so claiming I stole the car because the doors were open or I stole that money because the safe was unlocked, whilst being extremes and being actual crimes, none the less leave those effected by players who deliberately go out of their way to circumvent rules and settings with the same reactions as a victim of such pretty crime.
Angry, cheated, robbed and victimised.
Therefore I personally have no sympathy with any player who feels its "ok" to "exploit" various game engine loop holes or "sneak by" rules or settings especially in competitive match play.

I cant fault this post - there should be some way to enforce what players have on and off in game config when they join server it should automatically set the settings the same for all, thats what most want everyone on the same level

And before anyone says about keys i'm not thinking about keybindings other setting like foliage
 
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