Shotgun and Support suggestion

[Sammers]

1) Don't have such an aweful attitude. Nobody likes a douche. If you haven't noticed by now, alot of people dislike your attitude here on the forums.

I know, that's why my rep is so low.

2) If you dislike it (which is ok), don't try to make the suggesting person look bad by posting false facts. By this i mean your "able to carry all 3 shotguns"-post, which is completely false, and, to those other people who are too lazy to read the whole suggestion (like you apparently didn't do first either) will think i haven't thought about balancing the Support Specialist's perk weight bonus as well. Aka, you are trying to make me look bad by using lies.

That wasn't the case at all. You make yourself look bad by blowing such insignificant things as a misread out to ridiculous proportions with these walls of hateful text.

Besides, me thinking the Shotgun is a little bit too heavy is an opinion which fortunately also goes hand in hand with balancing the Support Specialist's ability to carry very many lightweight weapons. Meaning, my opinion goes quite well in hand together with a possible balancing aspect.

It's already balanced. I think Lighter shotguns would be imbalanced.

So, by all means, i don't mind that you dislike my suggestion. But, please, don't try to make me look bad by using lies, ok?

As said before, that's not what I was trying to do at all. Try and be a little less paranoid/sensitive.

And you think stuff like "We didn't completely rebalance Killing Floor just so i can ruin it again" is not an insult?

Yes, I think that's not an insult.

 

[Surkov]

That wasn't the case at all. You make yourself look bad by blowing such insignificant things as a misread out to ridiculous proportions with these walls of hateful text.

Who did what now?

You clearly didn't read the whole thing

EDIT: Besides, even if i didn't suggest changing the perk's weight bonuses as well (which you obviously didn't read) you still woudn't be able to carry them all. At level 6 at the moment you have 24 max weight. 1 is always occupied, so you only have 23 spare weight for your purchases. 7+8+9 = 24
So you wouldn't be able to either way. Which means, not only didn't you read the suggestion properly, but what you said isn't true in any single way anyhow.

If anyone is blowing something out of proportion it is you.
Do you by chance remember an instance where something similar to this happened? I do. You pulled this crap on me too a while back. Here let me remind you a bit about it.

You haven't offered a whole lot as to WHY this is a crap idea, and I'm not gonna lie it really pisses me off that you've posted in this thread once before with the **** standard "its op" argument only to come back and say its a crap idea that will never be in game.

And my statement still stands you still don't back up any stupid assumption or claim you make.
So far all ever really seen you do is enter a thread, make a useless statement without making any sort of useful contribution, and then act all offended when people do the same thing that you do to them.

The only reason you suggested this, was so you can carry more weapons. I think this would make the support imbalanced. Boom.

You see this? These are the kind of douche assumptions that start this kind of crap. You know what I think? I think that if you are not as stupid as you are acting, then you are a grade-A troll who really knows how to get his *** out of trouble by instigating fights with rash assumptions and aggravating statements so you can go back later and say "Hey, it's not my fault! I never insulted him at all!" Quit trying to shove the blame onto someone else. Or better yet, just shove off.

Let me know if you get the point after reading that.

 

[YoYoBatty]

Surkov appears to be supportting both and neither sides of Aze and Sammers' arguement.

 

[Bastian]

Sammers, just a small suggestion. If you're going to post an argument you should base it on real facts. Your opinion is always valuable but just if it has a truth base, but you didn't even pay attention to Aze's words! How can you disagree with something you don't even know?
Aze's ideas are always based on facts. I love them. Go Aze!

 

[Aze]

I read through all of this and it has come to my attention that these forums are turning into the steam forums; trolled and full of people who agree with suggestions that have been discussed 1000 times before(the final answer always being an obvious no).

Oh really? So you really think this particular suggestion (Shotgun weight plus Support perk weight bonus) has been discussed to death? The only threads i can find which contain that are my own huge posts (Like the "What if..." thread)

I honestly wouldn't mind this at all.

I agree but I prefer NOT to nerf that much.

#1:I recommand 16+x kg capacity for support,which means 16kg(instead of 15 kg) for LV0 support,and 22 for LV6 support.

#2:Making the pump/huntty/AA12 weight 7/9/9. (Havn't you noticed that the xbow had became 9kg? It used to be another 10kg weapon)

In this way:

Support with AA12/huntty weight 19/22 instead of 21/24. Still 3kg available.
Support with pump and another shotgun weigh 17/22 instead of 19/24. Still 5kg available.

BUT FOR THOSE WHO CARRY OTHER PERK WEAPONS,THEY LOSE 2kg.
It can be a terrific idea.

Well, the only "problem" (not a real problem ) is that it looks a bit, well, unaesthetical with 7/9/9 weight. 7/8/9 looks more "progressive" with their increase in tiers.
And yes, i certainly know that the Xbow now weighs 9

Either way, thanks for the suggestions

[QUOTE=͡

 

[Aze]

I know, that's why my rep is so low.

Maybe, just maybe, you have gotten that rep by making "funny insults" to the noobs on these forums? Or maybe because you are just generally funny? And/or an awesome player? Having a high rep doesn't necessarily mean you have to be a NICE guy...

That wasn't the case at all. You make yourself look bad by blowing such insignificant things as a misread out to ridiculous proportions with these walls of hateful text.

Walls of hateful text? Really? I'm trying to be polite with you, but it's not easy when you are being so rude. I mean, you are making quite the baseless assumptions, like:

"Level 6 Support would be able to carry all 3 shotguns"
There is 2 assumptions in 1 there. First one is a math-assumption, that if one would just reduce the weights of the Shotguns, you would be able to carry them all, which you can't (Which i proved in my first response to you). The second assumption, which comes from you not reading my suggestion properly, is that you indirectly state with that remark that i ONLY changed the weights of the Shotguns and nothing more, which is also false.

and: "The only reason you suggested this, was so you can carry more weapons. I think this would make the support imbalanced"
A plain lie. Pure proof that further shows that you couldn't have read the entire suggestion, (as im even NERFING the Support Specalist a little!) otherwise you wouldn't be saying this.

"Boom."
Not trying to look cool with your insults or something? Ok, sure... I mean, what's the point of such a remark? Are you implying that you "finished me with a shot" or something? Well, if so, you missed me. Bigtime.

It's already balanced. I think Lighter shotguns would be imbalanced.

That's a better counter-arguement (imo). I can understand the point of "lighter shotguns" would be imbalanced off-perk perhaps. (Like, for a Commando with his speedy reload?). But, if you think lighter shotguns for the SUPPORT would be imbalanced, then it won't as the perk weight bonuses are being rebalanced around that, even NERFING the Support with his Shotguns a tiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiny little bit (the AA12+Shotgun combo loses 1 spare weight)
So, may i ask you further, in a respectful and polite manner: Why do you think the ligher shotguns would be imbalanced? Because it allows them to be used more easily offperk?

As said before, that's not what I was trying to do at all. Try and be a little less paranoid/sensitive.

Well, maybe you didn't TRY to lie, but you did, and you still stand with your arguement and want me to "deal with it". Sorry mister, but i won't "deal with" your lies. I am ok with you disliking my suggestion in general, but not if you are disliking it with wrong assumptions and/or if you are trying to make me look bad. That's not cool.

Yes, I think that's not an insult.

Oh, it is.

 

[Heyman]

After fully reading the OP, I've decided that I like this.

These weight changes, I imagine, would likely affect Demolitions and Medic perks the most beside the Support Specialist.

Playing as a Medic in Bioticslab/Bedlam, I've discovered that neither the HS or the regular shotgun are ever worth the money to buy, factoring price, damage output, and weight. I'd consider buying them again if this change actually goes through.

And good job on the max weight carry reduction. Seems like a thoughtful balance change.
But I'd like to voice concern over the loss of Shotgun + AA12 + Handcannon combo.

 

[YoYoBatty]

Is it safe to comment?

 

[Aze]

After fully reading the OP, I've decided that I like this.

These weight changes, I imagine, would likely affect Demolitions and Medic perks the most beside the Support Specialist.

Playing as a Medic in Bioticslab/Bedlam, I've discovered that neither the HS or the regular shotgun are ever worth the money to buy, factoring price, damage output, and weight. I'd consider buying them again if this change actually goes through.

And good job on the max weight carry reduction. Seems like a thoughtful balance change.

Thank you
Yes, it does open up a little more variety for other perks that could be using the Shotgun and HS to a decent offperk extent, without overpowering it. Right now though, there is not that much use of them offperk, except for sh!ts n giggles.

But I'd like to voice concern over the loss of Shotgun + AA12 + Handcannon combo.

Why are you concerned? With 21 carry weight you have 20 spare slots. (1 always occupied by your handgrenades)
Shotgun = 7
AA12 = 9
Handcannon = 4
7+9+4 = 20

Nothing to worry about

Currently though, you have 1 spare slot (for a Machete/Pipebomb) if you go Shotgun + AA12 + Handcannon. However, take into consideration this suggestion i made for dual pistols: [URL]http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=49103[/URL] (please read the whole initial post for the balancing), then the single Handcannon will only weigh 3 (yes, its ammo is rebalanced too though) giving you 1 spare slot for a Machete again

 

[Sammers]

You know what I think? I think that if you are not as stupid as you are acting, then you are a grade-A troll who really knows how to get his *** out of trouble

You know me too well Out of interest, what business is it of yours? Strikes me as a bit of flamebaiting right there.

Let me know if you get the point after reading that.

There was no point to that. You left a comment purely to relieve your pointless raging.

Aze's ideas are always based on facts.

Which facts are they based on? The fact that shotguns are too heavy? Because that's not a fact and it's what this suggestion is based on.
If you can prove to me that the shotguns weigh too much, I may listen to you.

Having a high rep doesn't necessarily mean you have to be a NICE guy...

Right. I don't need to be a nice guy to post here, so stop moaning on about how you dislike me because I'm not a nice guy.

So, may i ask you further, in a respectful and polite manner: Why do you think the ligher shotguns would be imbalanced? Because it allows them to be used more easily offperk?

Yes.

I am ok with you disliking my suggestion in general, but not if you are disliking it with wrong assumptions and/or if you are trying to make me look bad. That's not cool.

I'm not trying to do that at all. You're just really paranoid.

Oh, it is.

No it isn't; that was just something that insulted you. It is perfectly possible to be offended by something that wasn't meant to offend. So while I understand you were insulted by it, it wasn't meant to be an insult.

 

[Undedd Jester]

Just throwing this out there so we are clear on the idea, because this looks like its gonna lsip into that kind of rant thread that my Berserker thread did.

The original suggestion was to drop the weight of the shotguns AND drop the overall carry weight of the Support Specialist at level 6 so that shotguns were a little more accessible to other classes.

As far as the Support Specialist is concerned nothing really changes other than his off perk weapon availability esp with some of the heavier weapons such as the Xbow, LAW and such.

The real question however is what does reducing the weight of these weapons mean for other perks? That is what should be the focus of the arguement. So to avoid this thread going totally into the pan, try and keep it on track

I personally feel that it would have a minimal effect and would greater aid perks like the Commando, Medic and Demoman who can make decent use of the shotgun(s), especially the Demoman (M32 + Shotgun (no pipes!)). Lets face it, they aren't in danger of becoming OP'd any time soon



I personally still prefer my revision of the suggestion, because I have always felt the Support isn't overpowered perce', but he is a little more powerful than other perks due to his superior loadout capabilities.

Spoiler!

Support Specialist perk weight limit bonus:

Level 0 = 15 (Previously 15)
Level 1 = 16 (Previously 17)
Level 2 = 17 (Previously 18)
Level 3 = 18 (Previously 19)
Level 4 = 19 (Previously 20)
Level 5 = 20 (Previously 23)
Level 6 = 21 (Previously 24)

Weight of each weapon dropped by 1:

Shotgun = 7
Hunting Shotgun = 9
AA-12 = 9

This set up would mean that overall the support specialist loses 1 weight block. Taking his lightest support loadout, with HS / AA-12 and Shotgun would mean he has 17/21 slots used, meaning he has only got 4 spare weight blocks, as opposed to having the extra 5 weight blocks he would normally.

This would mean the Axe, SCAR, and M79/Mac-10/Dual HC's + Pipebombs are all off limits.

It would also mean taking the HS and AA12 would only leave him with 2 weight blocks, not even allowing a Katana, or Mp7M further reducing the overall versatility of the Support class.

The question in my suggestions case is would the Support benefit from this very minimal nerf? I personally think so, although I can imaigne a fair bit of opposition to this point of view. Plus of course the class effects as discussed above.

 

[jd641]

The original suggestion was to drop the weight of the shotguns AND drop the overall carry weight of the Support Specialist at level 6 so that shotguns were a little more accessible to other classes.

As far as the Support Specialist is concerned nothing really changes other than his off perk weapon availability esp with some of the heavier weapons such as the Xbow, LAW and such.

Actually it does change a bit if I'm figuring this out correctly. Remember, the Support had a slight resistance to weight and can run as fast as other perks with just one weapon even if he has a HS and a AA12. Reducing the carry capacity of the Support changes the formula in which his speed resistance/bonus is figured.

I'm not sure actually how it would work out, but he might end up being slower with his full load out than his full load out now even thought it would be less stuff. I know there's a thread with the info in it, I just can't find it.

 

[Undedd Jester]

Well your movement speed is determined by your current weight vs. your total weight. So yeah if you carry the same amount of guns out of 21 blocks you will move slightly slower than if you have the same loadout out of 24 blocks.

 

[Surkov]

You know me too well Out of interest, what business is it of yours? Strikes me as a bit of flamebaiting right there.

What business is it of mine whether you are a troll or not? Well I have a personal stake, I suppose you can say obligation, to myself to call bull**** when I see it.
But of course, I could ask you what business of yours that is.

There was no point to that. You left a comment purely to relieve your pointless raging.

You may not see it, but there was a point to it.
But in light of your last post, I think you do know that.

 

[YoYoBatty]

We're so nice to eachother on these forums

 

[Aze]

The real question however is what does reducing the weight of these weapons mean for other perks? That is what should be the focus of the arguement. So to avoid this thread going totally into the pan, try and keep it on track

Exactly, that's the main arguement. (And believe me, im trying the best i can to be nice here, but a certain someone is making it hard for me -.-)

I personally feel that it would have a minimal effect and would greater aid perks like the Commando, Medic and Demoman who can make decent use of the shotgun(s), especially the Demoman (M32 + Shotgun (no pipes!)). Lets face it, they aren't in danger of becoming OP'd any time soon

Ah, here are some actual FACTS for once!
M32 + Shotgun might seem overpowered at first glance for the Demo, but really, it's not. You ONLY have the M32 as your perk weapon, and the Shotgun is quite weak offperk, at least on the higher levels.

I think we should look at the effects of all perks here, that might be a good thing (to see if it really is overpowered). Let's do this with my weight suggestions (the 7 / 8 / 9 weights):

Berserker: Really just opens up 2 more Axe-combos with Shotguns:
*AA12 + Axe
*Hunting Shotgun + Axe (+ Machete)

Commando: Opens up a few combos:
* AK47, Bullpup or SCAR with Hunting Shotgun
* SCAR with AA12 (potentially overpowered, but i think SCAR should weigh more anyway, up from 5 to 7 with other adjustments too though. And a SCAR weight at 7 still allows it together with my Shotgun's weight )

Firebug: No real change. If you Mac10 + "any shotgun", you won't have much spare room. The only change is that it opens up a little more with the regular shotgun (Shotgun + Mac10 = 3 weight leftover, instead of just 2)

Medic: The Medic can already carry any of the Shotguns with his MP7. With these changes he just gets 1 or 2 more spare slots.

Demolitions: Only real changes are:
*M32 + Shotgun combo becoming possible
*M79 + Shotgun also leaves one more room, which means 3 instead of 2.
*M79 + AA12 or Hunting Shotgun also leaves 1 (or 2) rooms left, allowing pipebombs (and with HS also a Machete).

Sharpshooter: A sharpshooter with a shotgun? Get lost, lol Well, the Hunting Shotgun + LAR combo becomes available though.

Support: As said before, this perk probably gets the least affected lol. The only things are
*A possible minor 1 weight nerf with the SG+AA12 combo (if we go with my suggestion) or a general 1 weight bonus nerf if we go with Undedd's suggestion.
*And, a tiny runspeed reduction compared to otherwise, if you only use Shotguns. If you go with completely full loadout either way (getting 24/24 weight or the 21/21 suggested), nothing changes for you.


So, the only 2 things i see as potentially "too strong" is these 2 combos:

- Commando with SCAR+AA12
- Demolitions with M79+Pipebombs+HS+Machete or M79+Pipebombs+AA12

I think the SCAR should be increased to 7 weight anyway (unallowing that combo of his). So really, i only see Demolitions as the perk with real potential overpoweredness in it.

We're so nice to eachother on these forums

MOST of us are actually trying to be nice here...

 

[Sammers]

What business is it of mine whether you are a troll or not? Well I have a personal stake, I suppose you can say obligation, to myself to call bull**** when I see it.

Well a lot of us don't really care about your obligation.

You may not see it, but there was a point to it.
But in light of your last post, I think you do know that.

To me a Ragey McRagerson and cast your level 20 RAGE all over this thread for a pointless cause.

No need to act like such a barbarian over it. Jeez.

Exactly, that's the main arguement. (And believe me, im trying the best i can to be nice here, but a certain someone is making it hard for me -.-)

If you had an improved attitude when replying to me in the first place, I'd have been less inclined to argue back. You think I like being treated like an idiot and being accused of making you look bad?

Ah, here are some actual FACTS for once!
M32 + Shotgun might seem overpowered at first glance for the Demo, but really, it's not. You ONLY have the M32 as your perk weapon, and the Shotgun is quite weak offperk, at least on the higher levels.

Well, see here is where the problem lies.
I, and possibly more players, think the shotgun isn't weak offperk.
This isn't really a fact at all, which is the stem of our disagreement.

 

[Aze]

Which facts are they based on? The fact that shotguns are too heavy? Because that's not a fact and it's what this suggestion is based on.

How do you know that? Why are you making assumptions again? Just because i wrote that opinion FIRST in my initial post? Once again, you are wrong. That was more of an "introduction-phrase" (and yes, an opinion, but not the base of my suggestion), as it was just easier for me to write the suggestion in that order. My REAL original opinion which the suggestion is firstly based on is that i think, if we were to bring in more lightweight weapons like the MK23 (which only weighs 2!) in the future, the Support Perk has a potential of carrying an overpowered (or rather RIDICULOUS) amount of those weapons.

Right. I don't need to be a nice guy to post here, so stop moaning on about how you dislike me because I'm not a nice guy.

Oh please, don't tell me that is your argument? Really? Wanna see what it looks like as a counter-argument? I don't care, i will write it anyway:
"Right. I don't need to be a nice guy either, so i don't have to shut up about my opinion of what an aweful douche i think you can be, so stop moaning on about me posting that i dislike you"
It's such a childish arguement. All you are trying to do is make us angry so we respond with "walls of hateful texts" (oh you funny guy ) so WE get banned instead of you who started it all...
Aka, you are trolling us just because you dislike our ideas. And i have to admit, you are really good at that.

And while i did come of with a quite aggressive post towards you (and i once again apologize for that), you could at least have the decency to admit that you were wrong (Now that's a FACT!). After that, you could also tell me to not be so aggressive, i would then have had no troubles at all apologizing to you for my bad behaviour. But instead, you not only don't wanna change your "opinion" (which i was not against, i was against your wrong "facts"!), but you throw ANOTHER FRIKKIN HORRIBLE assumption at me, with the added stupid remark "Boom" after that, implying i-don't-know-what and you later tell ME i should change MY attitude?! Hahahahahaha, woooow you are so full of yourself!

Yes.

Wow! What a great point! That's so... BRILLIANT! -.-
Seriously though, care to elaborate? If you really are against my idea, explain with some real arguements. I'm all ears.

I'm not trying to do that at all. You're just really paranoid.

What if i'm actually sickly paranoid? Does that make you feel better, now that you ridicule my mental illness that I actually might have, huh?
And like i said before: Even if you aren't trying to, you are making me look bad, due to the massive misinformation in that first post of yours.

No it isn't; that was just something that insulted you. It is perfectly possible to be offended by something that wasn't meant to offend. So while I understand you were insulted by it, it wasn't meant to be an insult.

And it is perfectly possible to come out as a complete jerk without even having that intention. So while i understand you maybe don't wanna seem like one, you still do.

If you had an improved attitude when replying to me in the first place, I'd have been less inclined to argue back. You think I like being treated like an idiot and being accused of making you look bad?

Improving? ME?! Did you somehow even miss my compliments to you? That i consider that you might be a great player and (generally, when not putting up with that attitude) a funny guy? Did you miss that I even frikkin APOLOGIZED for my initial angry post at you and you are telling ME to improve my attitude? Dream on little boy!
On top of that, you think i like being put out like a stupid person, then being told that i have to "deal with it" and that you stand by it, despite the "info" being completely false, even when i proved it to you? Are you really that complacent?

Well, see here is where the problem lies.
I, and possibly more players, think the shotgun isn't weak offperk.
This isn't really a fact at all, which is the stem of our disagreement.

Explain further please. Tell me how it's overpowered offperk please? I implore you, put some more meat to that bone and i will be happy to discuss it in a civilized matter.
As long as you also admit that, even though you perhaps didn't intend to, you DID post false facts, which, if you don't read my initial post carefully enough and only read your post, has an incredibly high likelyhood of making me look like i didn't think further about balance, on top of your post having false facts anyhow and that you made a bunch of other baseless (and wrong) assumptions.

 

[YoYoBatty]

Hey uh, Aze and Sammers, wanna stop your bickering? K thanks I would appreciate that.

 

[Sammers]

Hey uh, Aze and Sammers, wanna stop your bickering? K thanks I would appreciate that.

Not really.

How do you know that? Why are you making assumptions again? Just because i wrote that opinion FIRST in my initial post? Once again, you are wrong. That was more of an "introduction-phrase" (and yes, an opinion, but not the base of my suggestion), as it was just easier for me to write the suggestion in that order. My REAL original opinion which the suggestion is firstly based on is that i think, if we were to bring in more lightweight weapons like the MK23 (which only weighs 2!) in the future, the Support Perk has a potential of carrying an overpowered (or rather RIDICULOUS) amount of those weapons.

Hey, I think the shotgun is fairly powerful offperk. It's the weapon I have as Medic. I THINK. Just like you think that if lightweight weapons were brought in, the Support perk has the potential to carry an overpowered amount of weapons. Personal thoughts are not facts.

Oh please, don't tell me that is your argument?

No, it's not an argument. It is a fact about me as a person and I couldn't care what your reply on the subject is. Your personal relationship with me should not be affecting your suggestions for KF.

And i have to admit, you are really good at that.

Thank you very much; many people have told me this.

And while i did come of with a quite aggressive post towards you (and i once again apologize for that),

I never thought of you as overly aggressive; just very negative.

Wow! What a great point! That's so... BRILLIANT! -.-
Seriously though, care to elaborate? If you really are against my idea, explain with some real arguements. I'm all ears.

There are no arguments, only what I think. And I think the shotgun does a decent amount of damage for it's power and cost. Enough to justify it not needing a weight increase. Simple as that.

What if i'm actually sickly paranoid? Does that make you feel better, now that you ridicule my mental illness that I actually might have, huh?

What am I supposed to do; make it look good? this could be an attempt to make my mental illness look bad against me, so good luck pursuing that route.

And it is perfectly possible to come out as a complete jerk without even having that intention. So while i understand you maybe don't wanna seem like one, you still do.

Fully accepted, so long as you accept that what I said wasn't meant as an insult.

That i consider that you might be a great player and (generally, when not putting up with that attitude) a funny guy?

So you'd find it most complimentary if I said you might be a nice guy, whose opinion I might consider listening to?

Improving? ME?! Did you somehow even miss my compliments to you?

Did you miss that I even frikkin APOLOGIZED for my initial angry post at you and you are telling ME to improve my attitude?

Yes, I did

Explain further please. Tell me how it's overpowered offperk please?

I can't, just like you can't prove that it IS overpowered. I just think, from using it in Killing Floor offperk for a number of years, that it does an appropriate amount of damage for the weight and price. Ergo, neither of us are basing any of these ideas on facts.