Run and Gun

[Reise]

I think the philosophy was just different back in the day.

I know the Soviets were (in)famous for their charges, most of which led by crazy dudes with a deathwish and a PPSH.

I've never served in the military so I won't pretend I know how things are really done, but outside-looking-in it seems to be that modern tactics favor accuracy and hitting targets over simply brute forcing your way in with a volume of fire.

In the old days people were (rightly) incredibly wary and intimidated by automatic weapons. Man-portable ones especially since they were new and numerous. I suppose that might be a reason for why such charges were favored and occasionally effective.

 

[hanky]

No I know there designed to, just sometimes seems a bit silly. Not sure how many people feel the same way but looks like a few people looked at this post and wasn't bothered by it so I guess its not that big of an issue.

What just gets me is this game is so focused on realism, you're playing the game thinking...man this game's pretty damn realistic and awesome, and bam some guy is charging in with a smg just firing blind like a crazy man.

Totatly takes you out of that atmosphere of realism for a second. And yes maybe I'm ranting a little bit and I do apologies for that. Really feel forums are in place to discuss

But to be honest the thing that turned me off from RO1 (other than me just getting a new PC and wanted to "test" its expensive power) was the annoying charging SMG. And say this again really just wanted to know other players feed back on how they felt about it. Either WAY! game is going to be awesome and this is NOT a deal breaker for most people so...yeah.

 

[hanky]

I think the philosophy was just different back in the day.

I know the Soviets were (in)famous for their charges, most of which led by crazy dudes with a deathwish and a PPSH.

I've never served in the military so I won't pretend I know how things are really done, but outside-looking-in it seems to be that modern tactics favor accuracy and hitting targets over simply brute forcing your way in with a volume of fire.

In the old days people were (rightly) incredibly wary and intimidated by automatic weapons. Man-portable ones especially since they were new and numerous. I suppose that might be a reason for why such charges were favored and occasionally effective.

Well whats crazy is I was in the military, did 15 months to Iraq. and MAN! do I honor those old timers. They had some balls huh? Little off topic here, but the ONE war I would NEVER EVER want to be in is the Vietnam war. Although after recently watching a documentary about Stalingrad...that was a pretty brutal battle to.

In Iraq alot of the guys we encountered were just villagers with Ak's. (well they just ran from us and Apaches mowed em down was my whole war experience)

But back on topic just because it happened doesn't give it an excuse to be in game if its annoying ( but as we see I'm the only one who thinks that so NM lol) (But artillery was largest killer. If the game was true to realism would be just people bombing the crap out of each other for the whole time limit)

 

[KarmakazeNZ]

What just gets me is this game is so focused on realism, you're playing the game thinking...man this game's pretty damn realistic and awesome, and bam some guy is charging in with a smg just firing blind like a crazy man.

So what is unrealistic about that?

Stop and think for a moment. Why was the SMG invented in the first place? The point was to clear trenches during WW1. The SMG was specifically designed to overcome riflemen in close quarters and to do it every time, not just when a skilled soldier was carrying it.

The only thing unrealistic about SMG's in games like this is they are TOO HARD to run and gun with. Even the Tripwire guys found that out when they actually tried one, which is why they have un-nerfed SMG's for RO2.

The SMG was from the outset designed for one phase of the battle - the final assault - and it is meant to be better than ANY other weapon at that time. In every other situation, the SMG is a liability. In a trench, a room, or an alleyway, the SMG is the king of the hill by design.

If you have a rifle, you shouldn't be hiding in the places where your rifle is a liability. So in the cases you are talking about YOU are probably the one who is being unrealistic. If I have a rifle designed to kill from a mile away, the last thing I want to do is get closer than a mile, if I can help it. While that SMG guy covers that mile, I can take shot after unanswered shot at him, but if he gets within spitting distance, I am dead. That's the way it is in the real world, and it's the way it is in this game.

Realism is balanced by being properly unbalanced. By that I mean an SMG should ALWAYS be EVERYONE'S weapon of choice for CQB. If you prefer anything else, it's because you don't really know what you're doing.

The balance comes in when you realise that the SMG should be NO ONE'S weapon of choice for open field battle. If you are out in the open with an SMG, you should be scared ****less. You get to be "the man" when the rifleman is cornered in a small room, but if you're in HIS domain, you're toast.

So if you say it's "unrealistic" that an SMG can run and gun and spray and pray and all the other terms that were invented in the real world for those exact kind of actions, you have to also say that it is "unrealistic" for a rifleman to be able to shoot me in the head from 300 yards. "It's unfair, my SMG doesn't even go that far!!!!111ONE."

-

It occurs to me that thinking it through logically answers all these questions.

Back in the day they had riflemen. They lined up across a field and took shots at each other. Every now and then, they would UNLOAD their rifle, and turn it into a pike (by fixing a bayonet) and they would charge each other.

Then the MG was invented, and riflemen suddenly got mowed down en mass. One MG could fire as much as a hundred men. Riflemen were nothing but targets. So they dug trenches. They got out of the way of the weapon that was superior in the open, by creating their own cover. Stalemate ensued.

Then someone said, what if we take a machine gun, but make it a lot smaller and easier to shoot, so you could even do it while running around and in trenches. Suddenly the trenches weren't safe any more.

So what was the result? The riflemen said we need a weapon that is light enough to run and gun with but powerful enough to kill at combat ranges of 300 yards or so, and the assault rifle was invented.

Where is the bolt action rifle now? It's gone. There is an obvious reason.

 

[Cpt-Praxius]

Quick question or more so comments.


One thing I really don't like from the video and RO1 was the ablility to run with a smg and fire. Although I know it was considerately inaccurate, alot of players do this.

And my first question is do you guys like this?

Well in RO, you can always.... well not run, but you walk quickly (Running is a whole other thing in the game) and can shoot at the same time, and yes it's very innacurate, but even more so than other FPS's because RO features "Free-Aim" which when you move your mouse around to look, your weapon/hands are not fixed to the centre of the screen and move moreso...... thus you might have someone dead centre of the screen, but your shots can and will fire off centre if you're not lined up properly.

Add on top of that you moving, you'd be lucky to hit the side of a barn except at point blank range.

A lot of people might do it, but they're just going to be fresh meat to chew and they'll learn quickly that unless it's close quarters.... it's a very dumb tactic.

Short answer: I like it.

Another statement is I was in the army, did alot of MOUT training...never did we "run at the rifle at our hips and charge in" kinda tatics. Just not practical.

What is done in the military today is not the same as what was done back in WWII. Tripwire spent a great deal of time studying and implimenting many tactics and real-world methods used back then by both forces.... even to the point where they made the germans run with their weapon in one hand, and the russians running with their weapon in both hands, as that was how they were trained back then. This is also a bonus for gameplay as you can judge an enemy off in the distance from a team mate based on how they carry the weapon when running.

Even how they hold their pistols and fire them, they've improved on that as well.

Now this isn't a RANT "You havn't played the game" kinda post.

I'm asking if you guys like this...also I have a quick fix for it (If it is a problem...maybe I'm the only one who finds this annoying)

Quick fix: Just have the players go to a walk when firing a smg. This will prevent running. Also when you fire the weapon from the hip, have an animation bring the weapon closer to the face. Simulating a "braced" effect of firing the weapon. When firing a SAW in the army you had to hold on to that sucker while standing (still inaccurate)

Again not a rant, really want to know ya'll opionions, if enough players don't like this and TWI see's this post maybe we can have this changed. If not and you think I'm a just being a whinnie little punk....let me know "nicely"

Thank you

Interesting suggestions, but again, current military training is not the same as it was back in WWII.

 

[teemu92]

Then do it yourself once the game comes out. If ya can't beat em, join em! But just know this; I'll be the one sitting on the berm with my K98, so when John Ramborov comes flying out firing his PPSH from the hip I'll put a 8mm hole in his noggin.

Hell yeah, dont think smg's will be THE weapon to use, rifles will easily pick these guys off at a range, like they are supposed to, SMG indoor fighting dominance, and rifles dominate ranges. Thats how they should really be.

 

[hanky]

Well lets take the realistic approach out of the equation. Do players here find run and gun SMG "fun" for the game play? Game play that is supposed to capture the attention of a "tactical shooter".

 

[Maizel]

As I've poasted in several other threads, I don't mind run 'n gun.

Experienced players are able to deal with this,.

What I don't like is the fact that there is no penalty to sprinting (according to videos thus far). The gun is almost instantly ready to fire again, making ramboing past a corer much less dangerous, as you need less than a fraction of a second to beable to shoot again.

Whereas a longer time to get ready to fire again, might inspire some caution to submachinegunners, without nerfing the guns themselves.

 

[echutter]

You can't hold sprint and hip fire at the same time

Well actually..

 

[hanky]

and a awesome rising the smg back to front animation would be sweet.

Know the part in Saving Private Ryan were he shoulders the thompson and fires. When he brings it up a little higher than falls a little then fires (hard to describe the action through words) ANyway....like that...make the animation like that

 

[KarmakazeNZ]

Well lets take the realistic approach out of the equation. Do players here find run and gun SMG "fun" for the game play? Game play that is supposed to capture the attention of a "tactical shooter".

Yes. Running and gunning is a tactic. Just like camping and sniping and all the other styles of play that you don't find annoying.

It all depends on the situation. If it's an open map and my team have lots of rifles, and the opposition has all SMG's, then I'm totally pro-run-and-gun. If MY team has SMG's and its a closed map, then again, I am totally pro-run-and-gun.

If its a closed map and my team have rifles; just like anyone else who gets their *** handed to them... I don't like it.

My point is, as a tactic it's utterly neutral. It all depends on when and how its used. If my team keeps losing because morons want to run and gun on an open map... well that spoils it for me, but not because the game isn't doing it right.

 

[Cpt-Praxius]

Well lets take the realistic approach out of the equation. Do players here find run and gun SMG "fun" for the game play? Game play that is supposed to capture the attention of a "tactical shooter".

As I already said, yes..... it has benefits and it's cons.

If I have three enemies around the other side of a door picking off my team with rifles, I will run in and spray. I may hit them and take them out, and I may not.... but the suppression effects with cause them to have problems aiming properly so my team can move in and pick them off if I missed..... cover fire.

And on the flip side, when I have an enemy running around spraying shots everywhere, I'll most likely pick them off with a rifle quicker than they would me with their SMG.

Again, it depends on the situation.... I don't want to be stuck in a closed in space like a room with a bolt action rifle and would prefer to either have an SMG or a rifle with a long view down a hallway.

And flipping it again, I don't want to be stuck out in an open field with an SMG with the enemy shooting rifles at me..... if you want to run and gun in that environment, be my guest.... you'll just draw attention to yourself, hit nothing and die.

And if you want to hold up in an apartment or kitchen with a bolt action rifle, be my guest.... you better hope your first shot is a good one and that there's nobody else on my team behind me, cuz you'll be just as dead, just as quick as in the above situation.

Each situation in the game requires different tactics and different tools..... trying to compare the weapons, tactics and methods of modern warfare to what was done in WWII isn't going to work very well.... just as tactics in WWII won't compare very well to WWI.

Machine guns back in WWI weren't supposed to be accurate at all and most were trained just to shoot it into large crowds of soldiers as they came out of their trenches and charged without much aim involved..... as the years went by, the accuracy, reliability, weight as well as tactics for LMG/SMG's improved and evolved to what we have today.

And as mentioned before, due to the general accuracy of SMG's in WWII, their limited sights, as well as the in-game's free-aim physics.... hip shooting while moving isn't going to get much accomplished except for you being dead..... unless you're at close range, in which case you probably don't have much time to do anything else but shoot from the hip.

Rather than trying to rely on what you personally experienced and were trained in doing in Iraq, go back and look at common methods and tactics used in WWII.

 

[KarmakazeNZ]

What I don't like is the fact that there is no penalty to sprinting (according to videos thus far). The gun is almost instantly ready to fire again

I have to come back to the reason SMG's were invented in the first place. Firing lots of bullets fast was done specifically to overcome the limitations of not being able to take aimed shots when in close quarters combat.

The idea was if I can't fire one bullet and be sure I'll hit him, I will fire as many bullets as it takes to ensure I hit him. More bullets, more chances one will hit.

So these weapons were designed from the very start to be "run and gun" or "twitcher" type weapons. Some SMG's didn't even have sights or a butt. They were designed to be fired rapidly from the hip in EXACTLY the kind of situation you think they are unrealistic in.

They were designed specifically for being able to "rambo" around corners!

I know I am repeating myself, but isn't this OBVIOUS? Why would they invent SMG's if they weren't able to do that sort of thing. That is the ONLY thing they do better than a rifle.

It turns out that the rifle had to turn into an SMG in order to compete. The standard Steyr AUG (not the carbine) is shorter and lighter than the PPSh! Read that again. A modern assault rifle IS an SMG. It's just that it fires an "intermediate" round. Not as small as a pistol, but not as big as a battle rifle (G3, FN FAL).

So if SMG's feel overpowered when you have a K98, know that you are feeling exactly what the poor Wehrmacht rifleman was feeling just before he got issued his new StG 44.

 

[Maizel]

I have to come back to the reason SMG's were invented in the first place. Firing lots of bullets fast was done specifically to overcome the limitations of not being able to take aimed shots when in close quarters combat.

The idea was if I can't fire one bullet and be sure I'll hit him, I will fire as many bullets as it takes to ensure I hit him. More bullets, more chances one will hit.

So these weapons were designed from the very start to be "run and gun" or "twitcher" type weapons. Some SMG's didn't even have sights or a butt. They were designed to be fired rapidly from the hip in EXACTLY the kind of situation you think they are unrealistic in.

They were designed specifically for being able to "rambo" around corners!

I know I am repeating myself, but isn't this OBVIOUS? Why would they invent SMG's if they weren't able to do that sort of thing. That is the ONLY thing they do better than a rifle.

It turns out that the rifle had to turn into an SMG in order to compete. The standard Steyr AUG (not the carbine) is shorter and lighter than the PPSh! Read that again. A modern assault rifle IS an SMG. It's just that it fires an "intermediate" round. Not as small as a pistol, but not as big as a battle rifle (G3, FN FAL).

So if SMG's feel overpowered when you have a K98, know that you are feeling exactly what the poor Wehrmacht rifleman was feeling just before he got issued his new StG 44.

Oh come on, it isn;t that obvious, I begin to despise the elitist tone towards every negative point brought up, even the ones that are brought up with some sense, as opposed to thec onstant nagging.


I know some people will find some response to whatever negatives people say,

But I suggest you go watch the movies again.

I'm not debating the use of the SMG, I'm just debating what I see in the video.

Guns are being carried with one hand around the gun body when sprinting, but when they stop sprinting the finger is instantly on the trigger again.

It looks very funny, and unrealistic.

 

[hanky]

lol I know ww2 tactics just trying to state a case by using my own experiences and failed. Just something I found annoying in the game.

I think you guys might be thinking I'm agasin't the hip fire function. I'm not.

Here's what I would actaully like done. Tell me what you think.

Fire a weapon while pressing the forward key, weapon will move to a "simi" shoulder view in first person and player with slow down to a walk.

Fire a SMG while pressing the sprinting key player will run and shoot, but the weapon will spray in a "sway" like pattern.


Comparison sense ofcourse I wasn't in ww2, but close enough is paintball(joking). Who the hell fires there gun from the hip while running. Gun has literally no recoil but you bring it up to atleast have some stability in order to move your "spray" shall you to an accectable level in order to "walk" your bullets/paint to the target.

If you see a player (lets say how the animation is for both RO1 and 2) running with a gun to the hip running around charging bunkers you'd make the poor boy go home.

But I'm still getting carried away really mean for gameplay. No one here has an issue, so I admit theres not a problem if you all say so. We are the players as a whole, if majority likes it..it stays.

 

[The Algerian]

Runnin' and gunnin' with an SMG might mostly serve a suppressing purpose, as it is inaccurate but can make enemies keep their heads down.

Plus it could serve as a "rookie trap". The average FPS player might think he can do this in RO and still get some kills, eventually he will learn.

 

[Oldih]

Well lets take the realistic approach out of the equation. Do players here find run and gun SMG "fun" for the game play? Game play that is supposed to capture the attention of a "tactical shooter".

It's the reason why you can get 5+ guy killing spree in Lyeskrovy\StalingradKessel\Danzig\Pariserplatz\[insert official or custom map here where it applies and might be possible and presuming the SMG guy knows his sprays]. Someone has to go and do the dirty work when your team is too afraid to keep up the aggressive tone of the attack considering to win a map the basic thing is to at least put the effort of getting in to the capzone.

Also applies to DH at times.

 

[Reise]

Well actually..

Actually what?

Is it possible to sprint and shoot at the same time in RO2?

Shooting while jogging seems to be the limit.

 

[AntoxaGray]

I'd prefer the opposite, ability to run while in iron sights, because I can do that in real life (not sprint, of course, and very inaccurate).

 

[Witzig]

Well put Nikita. I completly agree.

One should keep in mind that a lot of the Beta Testers are RO1 Vets and already have some hip firing practice. Most people new to the game won't be that lethal.

AND one can hip fire with a Bolt Action too, if you hit the other guy is toast .