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This kinda de-evolution is why I usually avoid "Nerf this!" topics. Especially when I'm strongly tilted to one side or the other. I've pretty much stated my opinion on it and I don't think there's too much more this topic is really gonna accomplish beyond this point.
This kinda de-evolution is why I usually avoid "Nerf this!" topics. Especially when I'm strongly tilted to one side or the other. I've pretty much stated my opinion on it and I don't think there's too much more this topic is really gonna accomplish beyond this point.
yeah, I stopped really posting that much on this topic even during the beta. Its just so much more complex and difficult an issue, and must be carefully executed if at all to create a sense of balance while retaining the fun aspect of the perk. And, as usual with such close calls that hit home, the argument will only go as far as "The Point"
"The Point" is the point of a certain side or party where they draw the line and say "well, if you don't agree with me on *insert point* then for one reason or another this argument is over" and that party then refuses to budge, stalling the argument. The argument will then continue until either
A) all parties (or all but one) have reached their Point
B) The parties which do not reach The Point reach the heart of the issue, and go onto debating and coming up with solutions, and then get hung up on whichever parties already reached The Point.
This happens a lot in politics on issues, so I suppose that if you want to go into the goverment, you should jump in there and get a head start
Even with GOOD friends, politics leads to people getting unbelievably mad, to the point that my friends and I agreed to NEVER discuss politics.
The reason I got so annoyed is that IMO, the fixes they did with Berserker made it one of my favorite classes. A lot of us longtime Berserkers had complaints about us seeming pointless when compared to other perks that could unleash devastation at range and the Medic perk being able to do basically everything the Berserker could but still have it's healing benefits.
The TWI guys listened and buffed up Zerker to it's current state and fixed all of my complaints. Berserker is a fun to play perk now and I feel that it's advantages make up for not being able to level an FP in a split second with a Grenade Launcher, take down endless streams of Zeds with a SCAR and AK47, or clear a packed hallway instantly with an AA12.
And from the get-go, this topic has seemed to have an attitude of "Nerf it to fix it!", undoing the fix, instead of considering other options like buffing other classes or making HoE enemies harder.
If you start going nerf-crazy on things, I have a horrible feeling we'll end up with more things like our current M14, where it's just terrible to the point that no one uses it anymore.
"The Point" is the point of a certain side or party where they draw the line and say "well, if you don't agree with me on *insert point* then for one reason or another this argument is over" and that party then refuses to budge, stalling the argument.
I'd rather believe the party that keeps using circular logic to "prove" anything stalls the discussion.
E.g. "pounds should never be solo-able" "zerkers can solo pounds" "therefore zerkers are OP and need 'fixing'" and, most recently, clots which are now apparently "game breaking".
Let me remind you how it went from being rather reasonably "yeah only those 5%, more out of principle than for balance reasons" over "the zerker is kinda strong but not really a problem" to "the zerker is a massive problem that requires big, swooping fixes, let's come up with some real creative ones".
It's not really about hitting a brick wall, it's more like lacking any sort of wall to hit in the first place.
It is quite clear that there isn't the slightest clue about the dimension of the "problem" and what should actually be done about it which makes a discussion impossible and if you refuse to participate in the masturbatory "let's come up with the most creative nerf"-competition, you're not "stalling the argument", you're being reasonable.
We're not just talking about those 5% or even the medic anymore in a long while, essentially, we're just going bat**** crazy off-topic.
If this wasn't such a recipe for disaster, I wouldn't care.
Also it's rather presumptuous to assume that this approach will eventually lead to addressing the "heart of the issue".
That usually requires seeing things from more than 1 angle and I don't see that happening here.
yeah, I stopped really posting that much on this topic even during the beta. Its just so much more complex and difficult an issue, and must be carefully executed if at all to create a sense of balance while retaining the fun aspect of the perk. And, as usual with such close calls that hit home, the argument will only go as far as "The Point"
"The Point" is the point of a certain side or party where they draw the line and say "well, if you don't agree with me on *insert point* then for one reason or another this argument is over" and that party then refuses to budge, stalling the argument. The argument will then continue until either
A) all parties (or all but one) have reached their Point
B) The parties which do not reach The Point reach the heart of the issue, and go onto debating and coming up with solutions, and then get hung up on whichever parties already reached The Point.
This happens a lot in politics on issues, so I suppose that if you want to go into the goverment, you should jump in there and get a head start
8/10 times the people in the threads end up arguing semantics after the first handfull of pages. Which is pretty much what happened here. It happens to the best and most well thought out OP.
Also let me remind you that you yourself actually acted like, if you're a zerker, you never had any problems against any enemy constellation at all in your own, glorious "zerker is OP" thread.
Seems like you're the master of everything you accuse other people of.
Yes I did. I think this quote http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showpost.php?p=659679&postcount=177 sums up your point "I've stated multiple times, probably no less than six, that while I have a lvl 6 zerker, I certainly don't understand the perk as well as most people and that I am nowhere near as good a player as scary or devante."
You add nothing to conversations except wild accusations and discourse just to argue. I'm done with you.
So clots are 1 hit killers now?
I didn't even notice.
Maybe you're blowing the fact that jumping won't break a clot grab on higher difficulties a little bit out of proportion?
Don't tell me being successfully attacked by clots is that common to you in the first place.
Yes I did. I think this quote http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showpost.php?p=659679&postcount=177 sums up your point "I've stated multiple times, probably no less than six, that while I have a lvl 6 zerker, I certainly don't understand the perk as well as most people and that I am nowhere near as good a player as scary or devante."
So you were just theorizing all the time.
Well that totally refuted my statement that you acted like "if you're a zerker, you never have any problems against any enemy constellation at all" and also makes you look just so much better, doesn't it.
Do you even realize how much you keep contradicting yourself all the time until it comes all back crashing down on you?
I think it's easy in these situations to rush to fixing the problem before identifying what it is. I mentioned this during the beta (in the SS discussion), but you would be surprised at how much of this disagreement results from a misunderstanding of what is "wrong" and what needs to be "fixed".
Some questions that should be asked and collectively answered:
Is it desirable to make certain specimen unkillable for certain perks?
There seems to be a trend in this direction which hasn't (AFAIK) existed before. It has huge implications on game mechanics, so we should really address whether it's the direction KF should go in
Should we be forcing teamplay through the destruction of alternatives?
There are two ways to approach teamwork. You can make it more effective, or everything else less effective. We should identify which road is the best traveled in this instance.
Is it even possible to stop kiting without effecting other game mechanics?
Obviously the problem people have with zerkers is our ability to kite. This, however, stems directly from game knowledge + speed bonus. Changes to these could very easily break the entire class outright, so before suggesting ways to alter/remove them, please also have other implementations in mind to counterbalance their absence.
What role should berserkers actually have in game?
A common engineering mistake is attempting to solve a problem before you establish a criteria for success/completion. This causes proposed solutions to the problem to be unfocused, and results in controversy; Mainly because people don't actually agree on what needs to be changed and why. What role do you think berserker fills now? Why does it need to be changed? What role do you want him/her to fill in the future? After those questions are answered by the community we can start suggesting ways to get there. Before that, you'll only see flame wars like this appearing on the forum.
As for my take on the matter:
All specimen should be killable by all perks. It's ok if some are much harder to kill, but the ability to kill/survive should ALWAYS be present.
Turtle-based teamwork should be buffed - In HoE at least, there is more teamwork than ever. You either have turteling teams, or teams formed to kite. Since changes to SSs, and general zed mechanics, have made the big stuff harder for all teams, kiting is currently a preferred alternative to standing your ground against the hoards. When kiting teams are formed, perks with speed bonuses have precedence. This is a big reason why people see teams of berserkers/medics only now; They aren't that much better than they used to be, it's just that turteling is so much harder on HoE compared to simply running away, making speedy perks (zerk/med) preferable. In my opinion, making turteling consistently viable again is preferable to nerfing team-kiting.
This is a tough one. I need to think about this. Refer to (4) for a slight change to kiting.
I think berserkers should have two viable roles, neither overpowering the other. They should lead running teams, and act as "walls" in turteling situations. The second role is just stupid compared to the first currently. Here's my proposal (I've mentioned it before):
Lower zerker damage resistance by a large amount across the board, making it much harder to kite for the avg zerker
Institute a riot shield that lowers speed and hugely boosts damage resistance. Damage (from the front 180 degrees) should be a total non issue with the shield. Additionally, if it had some kind of creative secondary effect on "mouse click", like a push-back, it would leave a lot of room for the evolution of personal skill and shield-based teamwork. Bothersom husk? Knock away those firebolts with the shield! Raging scrake? Put him to sleep with a shield slam to the head. Headless bodies blocking the bullets of your teammates? Run through them with a shield to knock them down for good.
Good points, all of them. I do have a feeling that the Riot Shield will get abused and cause more of an outcry though. Not suggesting that it is a bad idea or anything like that, but what I see is this. 2 Zerkers with shields in front, rest of the team directly behind them shooting over thier heads.
I don't see why the berserker taking out a fleshpound by himself with an axe is overpowered. Any class can do this by using the 'line of sight exploit' and just shooting him hear and there. I mean, do you want to make it so that the only way to take out a fleshpound is for everyone to just unload, that doesn't make the game more fun imo.
I don't see any need for that, I find the game a lot better after the update and I think it's close enough to being balanced throughout, that it doesn't matter if maybe the berseker is a little more useful than other classes, which imo he's not because he takes so long to kill things compared to other classes. And one false move and you're dead.
Good points, all of them. I do have a feeling that the Riot Shield will get abused and cause more of an outcry though. Not suggesting that it is a bad idea or anything like that, but what I see is this. 2 Zerkers with shields in front, rest of the team directly behind them shooting over thier heads.
This make me think of support end up welding a door the entire wave on some of the maps... you wont even get $1, and all you need to do is hold down one button......
Good points, all of them. I do have a feeling that the Riot Shield will get abused and cause more of an outcry though. Not suggesting that it is a bad idea or anything like that, but what I see is this. 2 Zerkers with shields in front, rest of the team directly behind them shooting over thier heads.
And then zeds spawn behind them, whats your point?
Maybe an idea: the team can't shoot through the shied, and the shield is only big enough to cover a crouching playe?
Another idea: the shield has to be welded by a support to keep it from breaking?
So many forum users are willing to shoot down a perfectly sound idea totally, without even giving an attempt to balance it to their taste (not directed at anyone in particular, I've just seen it happen a lot here).
This make me think of support end up welding a door the entire wave on some of the maps... you wont even get $1, and all you need to do is hold down one button......[/Q]
^This is why I don't think the shield would cause an outcry. A support can weld a door the entire wave and not take a lick of damage. How would a berserker with a shield be any different?
Its just like playing a medic. Welding/shield wielding doesn't net as much money (if any at all) than actually killing. But if it is helping your team how isn't it viable? If YOU find it boring then don't do it, and let someone who finds satisfaction at helping the team do it. I've welded a door for 4+ waves all in the sake of helping my team.
I think this would add a cool new dynamic to the berserker class. Hell, if the call were given a more team oriented role maybe I would actually use it once and awhile.
This make me think of support end up welding a door the entire wave on some of the maps... you wont even get $1, and all you need to do is hold down one button......
Depends on what abilities the Sheld offers tbh. PLus when it comes to the support weld I always answer with this from the wiki
Spoiler!
Support specialists are usually better in a defensive capacity, where they can funnel enemies in front of them to ensure their weapons can tear through as many enemies as possible each shot. However damage output isn’t their only role, they are also much more efficient when using the welding tool, allowing them to weld doors a lot faster than the other perks. A lone Support player can lock down an area with multiple entry points very quickly, and will be much more capable at maintaining a weld against bigger groups of specimens. This however does force the Support specialist to choose between the 2 roles, and will usually see him sat at the back of the group maintaining the weld for most of the round. This can be compromised however since one advantage to superior welding is also faster un-welding. If a door is being overrun the Support specialist can wait for the percentage to get low enough and then quickly un-weld the final bit before the door is broken. He can then swap to his Hunting Shotgun or AA12, cut through everything behind the door, and then close and re-weld it shut again once the mob is defeated.
If your only option is to block then yeah the thing becomes pretty boring, but if you can use it to knock small Zeds back L4D style (don't worry my left hand tried to strangle me as I typed this), use light one handed melee weapons between blocks then the thing might serve a very good purpose. (knife, machete, pistol)
If he gets a Riot shield though in this manor something definately has to give on the Zerker. At the least the Zerker would need to be slowed like the chainsaw when using it, the riot shield would need a damage bar of its own otherwise it gets silly.
The problem really in a riot shield is it is potentially game breaking. The zerker has this already pretty respectable damage resistance, couple that with armour AND a shield against specimens and you suddenly have something that is very hard kill and quite easily exploitable.
Trying to think of potential balance solutions: -
- Make it a weight of 10 so the much loved axe and LAR is no longer an option.
- Have it only soften the damage to the player. Clots, crawlers and stalkers would pretty much have 0 effect, but gorefasts can chip away at the shield at a decent rate and obviously the big boys can deal some pretty heavy hits.
- Give it a life bar of its own, AND make it a little expensive to repair, and very expensive to replace. (So allowing your shield to get broken is a very bad idea). Discount for Zerkers though, so its a little harder for Medics to make full use of this.
- Make it so it would do a good job stopping bullets against the Patty, since that is what it is designed for. Rockets... not so much
- Give the player either no or only partial shield to the Siren scream
- Husk explosions get around the shield since it never directly hits the player
- The shield bash back needs some kind of weakness. Firstly can't be used on Bloats, Husks, Scrakes, Fleshpounds or the Patty since they are simply bigger than you are. Using it is slow and awkward, leaving the player momentarily undefended.
I feel the weight would deter other perks, an of course the obvious limitations that are better suited to the Zerker. Course given the potential power of this shield I imagine the Berserkers abilities might need to be re looked at again.
I know Yomommasis did actually model a shield so perhaps this could be looked into to submiting along with the M7A3 and Mk23 pistols as proper additions to the game.
No, wasn't trying to say that it is a bad thing at all. I was just saying that people aren't using the mediczerker anymore because any zerker over level 3 or so is clearly better (or at least on hard and up). The zerker was still better pre-update but it wasn't as clear as it is now.
And then zeds spawn behind them, whats your point?
That depends on where the team is, such as at the end of a hallway. In that situation zed spawning will not be an issue.
Maybe an idea: the team can't shoot through the shied, and the shield is only big enough to cover a crouching playe?
The zeds normaly target the people in front, and if the Zerkers are crouching the the rest of the team can easily shoot over them while the Zerkers block and push.
Another idea: the shield has to be welded by a support to keep it from breaking?
So now the support class is basicaly playing medic for the shields?
So many forum users are willing to shoot down a perfectly sound idea totally, without even giving an attempt to balance it to their taste (not directed at anyone in particular, I've just seen it happen a lot here).
Was not my intent to ''shoot it down'', thought that was clear. I simply see it as something that will be abused.
This make me think of support end up welding a door the entire wave on some of the maps... you wont even get $1, and all you need to do is hold down one button......[/Q]
^This is why I don't think the shield would cause an outcry. A support can weld a door the entire wave and not take a lick of damage. How would a berserker with a shield be any different?
Because while he is welding the door, the other members of the team are shooting at the zeds comming from the other direction.
Its just like playing a medic. Welding/shield wielding doesn't net as much money (if any at all) than actually killing. But if it is helping your team how isn't it viable? If YOU find it boring then don't do it, and let someone who finds satisfaction at helping the team do it. I've welded a door for 4+ waves all in the sake of helping my team.
I think this would add a cool new dynamic to the berserker class. Hell, if the call were given a more team oriented role maybe I would actually use it once and awhile.
Door welding is one of the content in game which do not require skill. Skill level will not make you weld the door faster, ONLY LEVEL of support will.
Now, if we need a player to weld a door, we will want a 6lv support who know nothing about the game but hack his level to 6 instead of a pro-support who reset his perk. So are we really want to add one more this kind of content?
To be fair the rest of the thread is full of bile and has fallen off track, might as well have a fanciful whimsy to bring it back to something worth reading
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