Level Design Maps you dislike and why . . .

[Quietus]

It's difficult for a level designer to always maintain perspective on their creations

It really can be difficult for a mapper to 'see the wood for the trees' after months of immersion in the minutiae of placing x bush in exactly the right position to y trees. At their most helpful, posts in this forum help to focus the mapper on where the wood is (oo-er! ).

I totally agree with these sentiments. It's very hard to cover all bases equally when you have so many things labor intensive things to worry about and limited time/energy. It's very easy to see how one can get caught up in one aspect of level design while almost ignoring other due to lack of time and or energy/motivation. However I disagree with Dingbat in that hateful (emotion based) criticism is welcome as well as constructive. People who let their emotions rule their decisions often don't have anything real to back up their claims other than "it blows" or "gay"... O`rly? Thanks for the well founded critical analysis there guy. Like I said those type of players are usually confusing their lack of skill with the map "blowing".

 

[Drevlin]

AAAAAGGGGHHHH - am dreadfully conflicted ..mmmmust process this info.....

nope, sorry it was not a wonderful topic starter - maybe next time post a thread called "three things I would do to improve x,y or z map"

...that would help.

Thats quite a dream scenario
Tbh, i never expect comments like that from a public test. At the very most i expect "Good map!" or "Bad map!"
Very rarly have i gotten destinctive critasism/feedback on a specific things from public betas and thats as it should be and even more rarly do i get people telling me how to solve the problem they take up.

When I first got into RO i was overwhelmed by all the maps in public Beta-state thats out there and taking a closer look at them I realized that these are maps that should not be public beta. I may be getting a bit off topic here but the majority of beta maps arnt polished enough to be in public beta, and this is PURLY my subjective view on it but I think mappers, players and the community as a whole would feel better if mappers constrained themselves from releasing a map as a public beta too early.
To get back on track here, the stuff you mention there Nestor, I get from closed beta tests with dedicated betatesters.
In my oppinion you shouldnt go into public beta with a map untill you have established gameplay as a whole and polished it up to a state thats representable of the final level.

The reason you put out Betas is that people can give their oppinions on your designs and NOT for the players testing it to come and design it for you.

Dont get me wrong, feedback is good but the beta you publish should have the base-work done and what you should get feedback on is tweaks and bugs. NOT A WHOLE REDESIGN OF THE LEVEL. That stage should be done in closed betas.
Again, just my oppinion and i apologize if this was a tad offtopic

 

[Slyk]

I can agree with both sides on the topic itself. It is just as easy to have a topic "Maps you love and why". The connotation of "hate" is more emotional than functional in the topic title.

All the same, the topic/post can be constructive. "Maps you dislike and why". The "why" is the functional part. It is then up to the mapper to decide what is valid and what is garbage. There is plenty of a**kissing, smoke-blowing and outright stupid commentary for all of us and then some in every map thread. But in it all come some well thought out comments and suggestions from players both new and old to the community. It is the mappers job to sort these out. No one likes to get harsh criticism of their work but if it is presented well with not just a complaint, but a valid and workable option/solution/suggestion, then it merits consideration within the mappers vision for the project. While all feedback has some value (in pointing out deficencies of the map or the null-intellect of the poster), it still comes down to the mapper evaluating the post and deciding to ignore, consider or act upon it.

There are maps that I really like, some that are ok, and some I simply hate to play. Everyone will have their own choices and opinions as to what makes a great map. It is always far easier to find fault and point that out. It comes down to players and their styles.

Stock maps I "hate" to play and why:
- Odessa. I just don't like the map from either side as a player. Frustrates me more than not.
- Radkowice. Just don't get the feel for it. Too big for my infantry feet. I end up camping all the time.

Stock maps I "love" to play and why:
- Konigplatz. Excellent looking, lots of fun to play both sides, plenty of options. Great ambient feel. Something about the Reichstag is imposing.
- Kessel. Always liked it in the mod and said "God, this is THE map!". Well made, lots of fun. Challenging to both teams. Great ambient feel.
- Bondarova. Love it. Prefer Russian tanker. Short, sweet, fun.
- Lyes Kravoy. Awesome looking, "you are there" feel. Any weapon, any role has a job to do. Still lost every time I play the map!
- Basovka. Nothing quite as frantic as trying to take or hold the first objective nor the last. Great cover, great atmosphere, plenty to do and worry about on all sides. Lots of great flanking opportunities.

Custom maps I "hate" and why:
- Won't name names but I feel generally most aren't 'ready' yet and many show promise. Certainly a couple I will pass on if they are on a server.

Custom maps I "love" and why:
- Zhitomer. It just bloody p*sses me off every time regardless of team and I want to "WIN" each round! That is good, for me, anyway.
- Tcherchassy. (spelling) Huge potential for infantry only map. Fun and with balance/cap zone tweaks can be a top map for a long time. Play with a good team for better experience.
- Black Day in July. Not often that I have time to play but now and then I like this map for it's sheer fun value. The scenery is nice and I want to get out and roll in the grass but there are facists to fry. Fun map and even if it is pretty much the only one of it's kind, it's good solid fun and a challenge. Come on, you know it feels good to snipe a tank at 800+ meters while it is quartering away from you down hill at full speed!

Maps I want to "love" and why:
- Leningrad. I really really respect Guppy for the patience to do all the fine detail work. I would have had a stroke three times over doing that. I get a headache every round though and can only take the map in small doses. Still a good knock-down, drag-out kind of fight most times.

In the end, I want the deeper, more immersive feel. The maps that do that the best are my favorites. Epic is good too. I like to feel that the world and war go on beyond the invisible boundaries of the map.

 

[Petr[o]v*]

*sigh* well I tried

 

[Quietus]

*sigh* well I tried

[quote='Petr[o]v*;275366] I hate all versions of Orel, not just because its a 5 minute drive to get near anything but because a German tank could just camp in an objective and destry you when your doing your long drive.
[/quote]You dislike Orel but the reason you give (A German tank can just camp at an objective and kill you) isn't a good reason IMO. So because you get killed by a German tank you hate Orel? Pretty vague logic & reasoning. That can apply to all maps. "Oh no I died because I failed to spot and kill an enemy before he got me, map sux! NEXT!" Next time you play Orel stay with at least 2 other friendly tanks that way you will all have a greater chance of surving instead of going off alone and attracting all the enemy attention yourself. Let me also add that yes Orel has long drive times which can get tedious but the long range tank combat more than makes up for that IMO. If you have a poor team with a bunch of guys meandering in lala land Orel is a nightmare. If you have a good teams (on both sides) it's usually extremely fun.

 

[KH Reese]

The 5 minute drive kills it for me, but I don't HATE it, I just play something else.
Anyone that puts all this effort into making us games for free deserves our respect.
Thanks to all the custom content makers!

 

[Cnnbs]

Lyveskrovy(did i spelled it correctly):That is the worst map ever, germans have nearly no chance winning(1 out of 10 is a realistic rate) ;ppsh whorage against bolt action guys in very close combat,a lot of entrances to the trenches ,germans have only 1 extra mg to counter several ppshs, russian sniper etc.Greanade spam ,ppsh spam.Yeah it is a lot fun playing as russian i might add which is no challenge at all...
When smoke is out it kills my fps too...

I dont like tank maps either.(arad,orel etc.)

 

[[=KAS=]doomed]

Lyveskrovy(did i spelled it correctly):That is the worst map ever, germans have nearly no chance winning(1 out of 10 is a realistic rate) ;ppsh whorage against bolt action guys in very close combat,a lot of entrances to the trenches ,germans have only 1 extra mg to counter several ppshs, russian sniper etc.Greanade spam ,ppsh spam.Yeah it is a lot fun playing as russian i might add which is no challenge at all...
When smoke is out it kills my fps too...

I dont like tank maps either.(arad,orel etc.)

?????


The Germans have the STG44. Insta-balance.

 

[Cnnbs]

yeah 4-5 stgs vs. 10-12 ppsh,insta balance

 

[Jokerman]

Lyveskrovy(did i spelled it correctly):That is the worst map ever, germans have nearly no chance winning(1 out of 10 is a realistic rate) ;ppsh whorage against bolt action guys in very close combat,a lot of entrances to the trenches ,germans have only 1 extra mg to counter several ppshs, russian sniper etc.Greanade spam ,ppsh spam.Yeah it is a lot fun playing as russian i might add which is no challenge at all...
When smoke is out it kills my fps too...

If at all, it is biased towards the germans (and thats how it should be- trenches are dug to make the area easier to defend).
You were probably playing with some not-so-good players. Ive seen, and not once nor twice, gerries locking this map so well, the russians (me) could not proceed to the next pair of objectives.

Smoke is a fps killer for me as well, but this map can be won by the russians only with smoke (at least in the first stage), and thats why I like this map so much- SL really has an important tactical tool in his sleeve...

 

[Matanga]

Going back to topic -->

First http://www.redorchestragame.com/forum/member.php?u=8700, Pariserplatz ROCKS amazing map m8...keep the good work.

Then Berenzina (beta5):

I played this map 3 times in a row yesterday (I've played it many times before) and some stuff I really dislike about it:

1 - German biased like any other map I ever seen :
- Reinforcements
- Arty

2 - Some cap points, like the first two are totally useles, there is no way to defend them.

3 - Map is too long (time and size...you can get flanked from like 5 different places for each cap)

4 - Russian spawn (all of them after the first line) are too far away from cap.

As the map is now...it is a sure win for the germans unless the german team are a bunch of noobs (seen it happen a couple of times)

Some stuff that could improve the map.

1 - More reinforcements for Russians (so Germans have to cap not just sit back and kill with arty and tanks)

2 - SMGs for russian Engs

3 - Reduce the size of the map (leave the hot spots like 1st and 2nd line )

4 - Reduce the time (60 mins is a lot!)

The idea of the map is good (fixed guns) and it can get really intense sometimes (first and 2nd line)
I hope the mapper doesn't take this the wrong way...I'm trying to be as constructive as possible (no ofense ment)
Thanks

Mat

 

[Slyk]

No offense taken. Just differing opinions. The first two objectives were never meant to be held and it is a waste of resources for the Russians to rush up there to try and hold it. They should dig in at the first line and fight from there. I have seen plenty of rounds where for 15-20 minutes the Germans can't crack that first trench line. It's always going to come down to teamwork for both teams. Even with multiple flanking routes, disorganized teams will always struggle on both sides. I think in b5 the Russians win more than they have in any other version. Too late in the process for big changes and certainly never going to be smaller. Lots of other maps out there that you may prefer though. At least everyone has choices.

 

[Nestor Makhno]

I hope the mapper doesn't take this the wrong way...I'm trying to be as constructive as possible (no ofense ment)
Thanks

Mat

The map is currently on Beta5 - I really doubt the kind of radical overhaul you propose is going to do more than raise an ironic smile.

 

[=GG= Mr Moe]

I think in most of the Betas of Berezina, especially Beta 5, the Russians may have a slight edge and will win it unless they feel the need to charge out and uselessly attack objectives that are no longer cappable for them. I respectfully disagree about the German bias. They have more arty and reinforcements because they NEED them because they are generally slaughtered much faster than they can kill the Russians.

 

[gunho]

About Berezina, i think its a great map, looks good, great idea and attention to detail. Its misses something big...

The playercap of 32 Ro has really affects the quality. It has a epic feel but doesnt reach it due to the numbers. This map needs at least 24+ a side to be honest.

So i think maybe you should make a version with just the first 2 defense lines and at the very most the village. This would suit the Ro player numbers making the map much more intense and focused. Basically cut the map down which should be easy along with minor changes for a smaller size and this map would be sweet.

 

[Matanga]

The map is currently on Beta5 - I really doubt the kind of radical overhaul you propose is going to do more than raise an ironic smile.

Yea of course the mapper won't start over because of me
(maybe some PPSHs for the sappers)

But I'd love to see a Berenzina reduced version for some short and intense battles

I think in most of the Betas of Berezina, especially Beta 5, the Russians may have a slight edge and will win it unless they feel the need to charge out and uselessly attack objectives that are no longer cappable for them. I respectfully disagree about the German bias. They have more arty and reinforcements because they NEED them because they are generally slaughtered much faster than they can kill the Russians.

Well I played this map as a russian 99.999% of the times. And the only times when I managed to win were

1 - The russian side of IC staking the russian team (we were practicing for nest day's battle, were we got our @sses handed to us by the more organized German team)

2 - A couple of days ago...the germans were so bad it hurted...and even so they managed to reduce our reinforcements to 0

Again the way for the germans to win is to stay back and hit the ruskies with arty and HE shells..and wait for those reinforcements to go to 0.

Anyway thanks for listening and keep those maps comming! Custom maps are one of the best thing RO has

 

[KH Reese]

So i think maybe you should make a version with just the first 2 defense lines and at the very most the village. This would suit the Ro player numbers making the map much more intense and focused. Basically cut the map down which should be easy along with minor changes for a smaller size and this map would be sweet.

It's already been done- it's called Smolensk Stalemate

 

[Nestor Makhno]

There is a quote from me above which I never made.

You will be hearing from my solicitors.

 

[Burns]

I am noticing one trend emerging in all of the custom maps being released (I let official maps slide on this one). Most custom maps are not very dynamic. The majority are all like this: 1 Dedicated Attacker, 1 Dedicated Defender, once 1 point is taken, it no longer plays any role in the battle. But thats the problem, its all a one way trip so to speak. One team is given no emphasis to move aside from simply reinforcing its remaining points. It all becomes do or die gameplay. I propose this to mappers: Include better dynamics for maps, even one as simple as being able to recapture lost objectives. I bet there are many ways of being creative too. One ended maps (as I call them) are so damningly uninteresting.

 

[SchutzeSepp]

^^ to me a dynamic map is a map where 1 team advances, and one team goes back. and that is specific to RO.
if you have a map where we cap this, they re-cap that, we go back re-cap this, meanwhile they recap that...
you get a static map where you run around all the time, doing the same thing over and over.
its fun occasionally, but its not what RO is about IMO