Level Design Maps you dislike and why . . .

[Petr[o]v*]

In this thread, point out the maps you don't like and support it.

I hate all versions of Orel, not just because its a 5 minute drive to get near anything but because a German tank could just camp in an objective and destry you when your doing your long drive.

 

[A-tree]

Danzig, feels like Dod with ppshs.

 

[Monkwarrior]

What a very usefull topic.
Focussing on negative thoughts is so very helpfull.
It really changes your life ......

Peace, Monk.

 

[Rak]

Agreed

 

[=GG= Mr Moe]

What a very usefull topic.
Focussing on negative thoughts is so very helpfull.
It really changes your life ......

Peace, Monk.

Agreed ...

 

[Drecks]

I hate any form of hate.... I really do.

 

[Nestor Makhno]

Petrov - my advice to you is to spend the hundreds of hours it takes to learn how to map then make a map and, after hours of wrestling with your conscience, decide to bring it out, hoping for positive feedback so that you can improve future maps you make.

When you have done that, try reading a post telling you how $hit your map is in a totally unhelpful manner. Even well-meant criticism from other mappers can sometimes hurt, but we swallow our pride, learn a bit and try to improve. If it's just off-the-cuff flame then there isn't even that redeeming feature to the post.

If you think that you have something to contribute in the sense of add to the quality of a) maps or b) mappers' lives ..then by all means post in the level design forum. Otherwise best not bother, eh?

 

[Petr[o]v*]

If it makes any diffrence, I love Maknovo Village ...

 

[worluk]

Petrov - my advice to you is to spend the hundreds of hours it takes to learn how to map then make a map and, after hours of wrestling with your conscience, decide to bring it out, hoping for positive feedback so that you can improve future maps you make.

So you improve on the positive feedback? interesting, i always thought its showing up the problems that improve things.

 

[Drecks]

If it makes any diffrence, I love Maknovo Village ...

Hand me a tissue to wipe my brown arm.....

 

[DingBat]

Actually, this could have been a very useful feedback thread, if handled properly. No map is perfect and all could be improved.

It's difficult for a level designer to always maintain perspective on their creations, so any feedback, even those that include the words "hate" are valuable.

To me, there are two possible ways to interpret the word "hate" when it's used to describe a map. Either the level designer has done something that really doesn't work or they've done something that works all too well.

 

[Drecks]

Actually, this could have been a very useful feedback thread, if handled properly. No map is perfect and all could be improved.

It's difficult for a level designer to always maintain perspective on their creations, so any feedback, even those that include the words "hate" are valuable.

To me, there are two possible ways to interpret the word "hate" when it's used to describe a map. Either the level designer has done something that really doesn't work or they've done something that works all too well.

People could start to post their

feedback/input/tips/suggestions/likes/dislikes/hate/love/proposals

in the post where the mapper has post it's work. Most obvious the mapper will look there.

I mentioned that before in the Am I the only one that hates custom maps? topic.

http://www.redorchestragame.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16935
http://[URL
Let me quote myself

Well i make custom maps whoot. And there is one thing which bothers me.
There are more people reacting this post then there are people reacting on almost any mapfeedback post.

Making maps for RO isn't the same as making them for whatever game.
One has to keep in mind spawnareas,capzones, walking distance, balance.
It's not just some sort of Death Match map we have to make.

Then once the mapper is ready for testsessions to gather feedback to IMPROVE his product for the community and he has to move oceans to have people in his testsessions it's kind of hard to improve stuff.

For Zhitomir beta 2 and 3 we had two public testweekends to gather info to make the map better. Almost without result.

Iff people like this game and want better custom maps provide the creator good info about problems with capzones,spawnareas and other issues instead of spread your complains on a server simply shouting "This map ****s" or "Crap map".

Most mappers post their stuff and beta's to gather info. Most info needed is gameplay issues. A mapper can test his stuff locally or with a choosen team but the best info is provided once a beta goes public cause public gameplay is really different from any organized testsessions.

So don't piss on custom maps but help them to improve is what i say.

 

[Mike_Nomad]

This will be the first time I find myself disagreeing with a TW rep.


This thread is nothing but an open encouragement to berate mappers. All mappers whether they're accomplished or learning.

I could care less about anything someone hates.. We have well over 80 maps to choose from.

If a person cannot offer CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM as opposed to DESTRUCTIVE CRITICISM, then a far better thing is to not be offensive at all.

In the example given, perhaps Petr[o]v* would be pleased if the German Tank was right outside the Russian Spawn waiting to be nailed like a sitting duck!

Petr[o]v*'s example amounts to nothing more than the typical whine we are forced to endure with the release of almost every custom map and/or TW updates and maps. - - S.O.S. ..just a different day.

 

[DingBat]

This will be the first time I find myself disagreeing with a TW rep.


This thread is nothing but an open encouragement to berate mappers. All mappers whether they're accomplished or learning.

I could care less about anything someone hates.. We have well over 80 maps to choose from.

If a person cannot offer CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM as opposed to DESTRUCTIVE CRITICISM, then a far better thing is to not be offensive at all.

Before anyone gets the wrong idea, let me make it clear that I no longer have a relationship with Tripwire (and the parting was most friendly, before anyone gets any other ideas). TW have been gracious enough to leave the tag on my posts, but I do not presume to speak for them.

Whenever you produce anything for public consumption in this life, you invite criticism. All criticism can, and should, be used to learn. Constructive criticism is easier to digest, but destructive criticism (as you called it) can be useful as well.

Destructive criticism is usually fueled by emotion. Emotion is hugely valuable in feedback as it leads to you the core motivations that drive people to either avoid or embrace what you've produced. Strong emotion is even more valuable.

What if someone hates something in my map?

1. What is it that drives that emotion? Frustration? Is it offensive?
2. Why are they reacting that way?
3. Is that hate a demotivating or motivating influence? Strangely, hate or closely related emotions can drive people to play even more. "Gawd, I hated that boss, but I felt soooo good when I beat him".

Would it be better if everyone gift wrapped their feedback in pretty ribbons so that our feelings were never hurt? I guess. People have a habit of not fitting into our plans. But who loses when we ignore negative feedback? We do.

 

[Nestor Makhno]

If it makes any diffrence, I love Maknovo Village ...

AAAAAGGGGHHHH - am dreadfully conflicted ..mmmmust process this info.....

nope, sorry it was not a wonderful topic starter - maybe next time post a thread called "three things I would do to improve x,y or z map"

...that would help.

By positive feedback, I mean something like, "I can see what you were trying to do there, maybe if you move the German spawn a bit closer to the cap you will get some intense CQB in the trench" not "OMG another classic, you rule, as ever" which is only marginally more helpful than a flame post.

Everybody has opinions, some more than others, and with enough different opinions on potential improvements to a map, the creator can more clearly define their own initial vision. It really can be difficult for a mapper to 'see the wood for the trees' after months of immersion in the minutiae of placing x bush in exactly the right position to y trees. At their most helpful, posts in this forum help to focus the mapper on where the wood is (oo-er! ).

 

[SchutzeSepp]

i remember when i first played my map pariserplatz online, i asked the people there if they liked the map without telling i made it.
5 or 6 players yelled "its great" "i love it" "its the best map..." ...
and one guy said "it blows"

so i had like 10 good comments, but it's that one "it blows" comment that just stays in your head.

it's like telling a mother "dang, your kid is ugly" even if it is true, those things are verry sensitive. and you only understand it when you let people judge something you created.

 

[Mike_Nomad]

Before anyone gets the wrong idea, let me make it clear that I no longer have a relationship with Tripwire (and the parting was most friendly, before anyone gets any other ideas). TW have been gracious enough to leave the tag on my posts, but I do not presume to speak for them.

Whenever you produce anything for public consumption in this life, you invite criticism. All criticism can, and should, be used to learn. Constructive criticism is easier to digest, but destructive criticism (as you called it) can be useful as well.

Destructive criticism is usually fueled by emotion. Emotion is hugely valuable in feedback as it leads to you the core motivations that drive people to either avoid or embrace what you've produced. Strong emotion is even more valuable.

What if someone hates something in my map?

1. What is it that drives that emotion? Frustration? Is it offensive?
2. Why are they reacting that way?
3. Is that hate a demotivating or motivating influence? Strangely, hate or closely related emotions can drive people to play even more. "Gawd, I hated that boss, but I felt soooo good when I beat him".

Would it be better if everyone gift wrapped their feedback in pretty ribbons so that our feelings were never hurt? I guess. People have a habit of not fitting into our plans. But who loses when we ignore negative feedback? We do.

In other words, the mappers, modders and mutator authors must take all the negativity heaped at them with a gracious smile and a thank you? Surely, you jest!

That just ain't gonna happen. What will happen is, after sufficient negativity has been heaped upon the authors, they will walk while at the same time, telling the negative heads to "stuff it". Make no mistake about that.

Where are you coming from? Are you now saying that these authors must also be psycho analysts AND authors? I'd say that is a bit of a reach. Come on... this is the real world not fantasy land. These authors are creating and writing these files FREE of charge.. as such, a bit of decorum and respect is warranted. Emotional outbursts do nothing worthwhile.

CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM is welcome by most everyone. DESTRUCTIVE CRITICISM, on the other hand is not because it creates animosity, division and decline.

 

[DingBat]

In other words, the mappers, modders and mutator authors must take all the negativity heaped at them with a gracious smile and a thank you? Surely, you jest!

No, I'm not. And stop calling me Shirley.

I think you operate from a fundamental misunderstanding of the situation. The negativity is going to be hurled at the level designers, modders, and mutator authors regardless. We cannot influence that. What we can do is use the feedback to our benefit.

As I asked earlier, if we ignore feedback, no matter how vile, who loses? Not the complainer. They've already vented. Only we lose.

If you decide to quit because of complaints, who loses? Well, the community, yes, but more importantly, yourself. You have allowed others to decide your destiny.

When are we most likely to learn the most? When we've screwed something up. When are we most likely NOT to look for opportunities to learn? Yeah, when we've screwed something up. I don't need much feedback when I hit 3 home runs in 4 at bats. I need it when I've struck out my last 5 times at the plate. Constructure/destructive, I'll take it all.

If you're going to toss something out into the public view you have to develop a thick skin. When you publish a map, you're giving the community something but you also want something from the community (accolades, grattitude, money, whatever). You can't take only the good.

 

[Quietus]

i remember when i first played my map pariserplatz online, i asked the people there if they liked the map without telling i made it.
5 or 6 players yelled "its great" "i love it" "its the best map..." ...
and one guy said "it blows"

so i had like 10 good comments, but it's that one "it blows" comment that just stays in your head.

it's like telling a mother "dang, your kid is ugly" even if it is true, those things are verry sensitive. and you only understand it when you let people judge something you created.

People that say stuff like that are idiots IMO. Usually when they say "it blows" what they are actually referring to (whether they realize it or not) is that they blow and are mad because they aren't "owning up a storm" like they think they should be. Water off a ducks back when you hear comments from those kind of people.

 

[Mike_Nomad]

No, I'm not. And stop calling me Shirley.

OK, I'll stop.

I think you operate from a fundamental misunderstanding of the situation. The negativity is going to be hurled at the level designers, modders, and mutator authors regardless. We cannot influence that. What we can do is use the feedback to our benefit.

How can I possibly misunderstand someone being disrespectful? Insulting a man's efforts is a serious act of disrespect. On the other hand, constructive criticism can only create improvements and enhancements. Constructive meaning offering suggestions, ideas and genuine feedback.. not a blanket condemnation.

As I asked earlier, if we ignore feedback, no matter how vile, who loses? Not the complainer. They've already vented. Only we lose.

Feedback, viable or vile is always an asset but an unsubstantiated insult of a person's efforts and work is ridiculous and engenders hostility. I'd hazard a guess that if... such insults were hurled in real life, the immediate reactions would be most unwelcome.

If you decide to quit because of complaints, who loses? Well, the community, yes, but more importantly, yourself. You have allowed others to decide your destiny.

Actually everyone loses... so the trick is to adhere to the fine practice of mutual respect coupled with intelligent, productive discussion.

When are we most likely to learn the most? When we've screwed something up. When are we most likely NOT to look for opportunities to learn? Yeah, when we've screwed something up. I don't need much feedback when I hit 3 home runs in 4 at bats. I need it when I've struck out my last 5 times at the plate. Constructure/destructive, I'll take it all.

The Marquis De Sade would love you.

At the point of discovering that you screwed up, you would not only welcome any helpful suggestions after the revelation of a problem, you are also going to respond positively to assistance, constructive criticism and possible solutions. I might add that yours and most others response and acceptance would be undoubtedly both quicker and more interactive on this basis.

If you're going to toss something out into the public view you have to develop a thick skin. When you publish a map, you're giving the community something but you also want something from the community (accolades, grattitude, money, whatever). You can't take only the good.

A thick skin is again, the Utopian condition. If such is the case, one can then cruise along taking all the abuse in the world with a smile on their face. Truthfully, I do not see that happening in the real world. Authors in general are receptive to users pointing out problems, both potential and actual, if its done respectfully. Additionally, I'd offer a summation that those users who do so with respect, facts and suggestions are far more effective and are most likely to enjoy seeing their observations welcomed repeatedly.