Beta Map [Map] TE-Provkhoy beta

[Landrovercrazy]

I hope you read this Leo, cos i agree with Crosstrain here... After playing your fantastic map many times... my comments underneath,

I could not disagree with this any more vehemently. All this particular "golden rule" does is turn the "attackers" into "defenders" and changes the game up. ANY attacking team that has this setup will take full advantage of it and rush in and set up a defensive position BEYOND the attack point while others on the attack team capture. THEN the defined "defenders" have no chance. And if this is repeated with each successive capture point then the original defenders NEVER defend. They have to actually attack to even attempt to defend.

In this game with the ability to flank positions, it seem much preferable to have the defensive team closer to the objective so they can actually set up a defense. THEN the attackers MUST have the ability to advance with some cover to a place where they can take a direct route in OR flank in ANY direction. Then you give the attack team more reinforcements and it works.

The beauty of this game (as opposed to more linear games) is that a defense must set up a multi-directional perimeter to be effective. Not just a defense facing a singular direction. This may seem silly to you but a good attacking team can beat this by simply massing forces and press the defense (which must be functionally spread out to cover the multi-directional approaches) in one zone and then breaking through and taking an objective.

In my opinion, the problem with most games (from a tactical perspective) is that the objectives are set either in the middle of the map making it a foot race to the objective (which is the great destroyer of tactical movement) OR closer to the attackers which makes it GAME OVER for the defenders.

The first Objective, although I commented on how it is hard to crack is infact possible with good team work only. On this Map if you are out for kill counts and lone wolf manuvers, your team will loose. #

Only the coordinated teams win. Although the spawn positions were not the best placed for other objectives. the Initial hard battle for the Tower is great.

All that is needed is more reinforcements and a little more cover. Aside from this I think it is great, and some epic battles have been fought for it. Not to mention some bots spreading out and maybe not all running down the train line... easy pickings for those farmers!

 

[Mike_Nomad]

I hope you read this Leo, cos i agree with Crosstrain here... After playing your fantastic map many times... my comments underneath,



The first Objective, although I commented on how it is hard to crack is infact possible with good team work only. On this Map if you are out for kill counts and lone wolf manuvers, your team will loose. #

Only the coordinated teams win. Although the spawn positions were not the best placed for other objectives. the Initial hard battle for the Tower is great.

All that is needed is more reinforcements and a little more cover. Aside from this I think it is great, and some epic battles have been fought for it. Not to mention some bots spreading out and maybe not all running down the train line... easy pickings for those farmers!

And...... reinstatement of the Assault Class.

 

[Le0]

I hope you read this Leo, cos i agree with Crosstrain here... After playing your fantastic map many times... my comments underneath,

The first Objective, although I commented on how it is hard to crack is infact possible with good team work only. On this Map if you are out for kill counts and lone wolf manuvers, your team will loose. #

Only the coordinated teams win. Although the spawn positions were not the best placed for other objectives. the Initial hard battle for the Tower is great.

All that is needed is more reinforcements and a little more cover. Aside from this I think it is great, and some epic battles have been fought for it. Not to mention some bots spreading out and maybe not all running down the train line... easy pickings for those farmers!

I already made some changes to the first objective.
First, I added more cover to the German advance on the steppe which was way too open. I'm still wondering if I should add more but I think I'll leave it like this for beta 2 and get some feedback first.
I also added a couple of fixed MG for the Germans.
I'm planning to make the objective zone a bit bigger because at the moment a single nade well placed could kill everyone in the zone.
I pushed up reinforcement for both teams to 400 (should I give more to the attackers?)
I'll try to improve the bot pathing so they don't all go like dumb in the same place.
I also fixed the bug that prevented any item on the map being destroyed.
The barricade before the water tower can be blown up using satchel/arty to facilitate the German attack.

About the spawn point issue that was discussed with CrossTrain Goten and co
I personally don't think like him; For me the defenders should be closer to the objective than the attackers. If the attackers are having a hard time I prefer to give them more routes/reinforcements/cover than making them closer to the objective than the attackers.

However having said that I pushed the first Soviet spawn a bit further (just in front of the school) because it was too close I thought. This will have to be tested anyway and if it is still not good I'll change it again

I'll be releasing beta 2 soon so that you guys can give me more feedback.

And I wanted to thank all you guys that gave me feedback, it's awesome and I'm really happy you seem to like the map overall

And...... reinstatement of the Assault Class.

Don't worry I'll be adding the assault class for next beta (2 slot I think?)

 

[Mike_Nomad]

Cheers!!

 

[Landrovercrazy]

I suggested getting rid of the assault class over on RO2modmaps, or your own web site Leo.

It wasn't a good suggestion. the reasoning was to limit the amount of automatic weapons, so there was more rifle fire style shoot outs but everyone just tries to go for engineer then cos they have MP40's etc...

ANYWAY, no matter...

The Map is overall fantastic and apart from the small stuff (like the tower overlooking a spawn and a few mantle areas not being there) it is my favorite map so far official and usermade. remember TWI have map bugs too... the apartments spawn fall for one!

It has all best possible elements for this game, open battles where you have to fire and manuver. Buildings and defencive positions to storm. as well as enough areas where it is a little like street fighting. especially on the west side between Obj A and B, if the Allies figure out the Axis are flanking there it becomes building to building fire fights and this is just what the game was made for.

Looking forward to beta 2... I imagine that the final version of this map cannot be far off (provided the arty bug is fixed) and I am sure it will become a must have for any new commers to the game.

Enough said... thanks Leo
Ken

 

[Le0]

Thanks Landrovercrazy!

The arty bug is already fixed yes

 

[Mike_Nomad]

I suggested getting rid of the assault class over on RO2modmaps, or your own web site Leo. ----- snip -----

Or, perhaps Server Admin Choice for the map??

In any case, the map is a definite keeper.

 

[Goten]

I pushed up reinforcement for both teams to 400 (should I give more to the attackers?)

Of course. This time don't do it like TWI: Allies have equal or more reinforcements on all maps ! There's not a single map where Allies have less, even if they attack or defend.

But I'm afraid 400 is a big number, there will be no depletion on either team - you might aswell put 9999999 on each team.

Imho opinion it should be 300 to 250 for Axis - you might check the numbers on a full server ... Apartments and Red October will be good maps to do that.

About the spawn distances: I'm sorry you see this way. I've told my reasons (defenders die less - that's why they have or SHOULD have less reinforcements and if a team loses less men AND brings them to the "battlefield" faster that team has a double advantage).

I've told you (and the others) to see how is done on the official maps, but I see the effort was too big

Do some screenshots like this (actually 2 screenshots "glued" together in one - one on the Axis spawn points, one on the Allies)



Do that for most or all objectives on the official maps and see if the attackers or defenders spawn closer - I'll tell you from now that it's the attackers.

You made a (and maybe will make more) decent map - I'm not going to tell you it's a great map like some excited spirits tell you: it's not great for a lot of reasons, from graphical, to layout, to balancing - but the most important on the long run will be the balancing one: people will overlook (more or less) the graphics, will overlook the fact they have to cram 20 people into a building to take it or defend it, but they will not overlook the fact they run 30 seconds, hide 10, shoot 5 - just to kill a guy who will be back in the cap zone within 20 seconds. Maybe enjoyable as a russian, but not as Axis.

 

[VocaTeam]

I hope that servers will take it out from their list.
It's a poor designed, awful optimized, and that !@#$ green from the grass is annoying.
Sorry dude, I presume you worked some hours on it, but please pare our misery.
Did I mentioned that it looks REALLY bad ? And that ****ty grass is !@#$ ?

PS: Ah, and is perfect for Allies, no doubt.

 

[ikkiewikkie]

I hope that servers will take it out from their list.
It's a poor designed, awful optimized, and that !@#$ green from the grass is annoying.
Sorry dude, I presume you worked some hours on it, but please pare our misery.
Did I mentioned that it looks REALLY bad ? And that ****ty grass is !@#$ ?

PS: Ah, and is perfect for Allies, no doubt.

Well, if you don't like the map, then don't play it. There's a lot of people out there enjoying this map. Also, it's a beta, balance and performance are being worked on.

 

[Landrovercrazy]

I hope that servers will take it out from their list.
It's a poor designed, awful optimized, and that !@#$ green from the grass is annoying.
Sorry dude, I presume you worked some hours on it, but please pare our misery.
Did I mentioned that it looks REALLY bad ? And that ****ty grass is !@#$ ?

PS: Ah, and is perfect for Allies, no doubt.

I shouldnt have to justify these negative comments with an answer... but i am so annoyed I think I will.

Agreeing with ikkiwikkie here... may I also say, that I mentioned before the axis can crack the defences if they work together.

Do you like to cooperate with people for enhanced game play and emersion or do you just want a high kill count, if it is the latter may I suggest a little game out there abreiviated to cod?

ALSO... Why comment on something you dont like?

UNLESS you can do better?

CAN YOU?

ENOUGH ENOUGH, this is not the place.

We are here to give constructive critisism how else will things be improved.

ALSO..................................

Quote:
Originally Posted by Landrovercrazy
I suggested getting rid of the assault class over on RO2modmaps, or your own web site Leo. ----- snip -----

Or, perhaps Server Admin Choice for the map??

In any case, the map is a definite keeper.

Yes good idea! I like this.

I am not quite sure how it works, but are the class amounts and weapon choices like having pistols etc... linked to the level of realism set for the server?

 

[CrossTrain]

I hope that servers will take it out from their list.
It's a poor designed, awful optimized, and that !@#$ green from the grass is annoying.
Sorry dude, I presume you worked some hours on it, but please pare our misery.
Did I mentioned that it looks REALLY bad ? And that ****ty grass is !@#$ ?

PS: Ah, and is perfect for Allies, no doubt.

This is THE MOST PITIFUL comment I've seen anywhere in these forums. And THAT is saying something significant!!

Leo has busted his *ss on this map creating a heckuva lot of custom stuff. He spent HIS TIME and effort on OUR behalf. So we can enjoy something more than the old stock maps. And YOU have the audacity to come and post a totally asinine comment like that? Not only is it as amazingly disrespectful as any post I've seen in these forums, but it isn't even helpful.

My personal advice to you is if you feel that strongly, out of respect for another person's tremendous effort, you should shut up and say NOTHING. Seriously dude. That was unbelievably disrespectful in tone and nature.

 

[Sensemann]

I hope that servers will take it out from their list.
It's a poor designed, awful optimized, and that !@#$ green from the grass is annoying.
Sorry dude, I presume you worked some hours on it, but please pare our misery.
Did I mentioned that it looks REALLY bad ? And that ****ty grass is !@#$ ?

PS: Ah, and is perfect for Allies, no doubt.

Usually I don't upvote or downvote anything. But your comment is out of the usual and just shows a piss-poor character.

 

[-=}WoLvErInE{=-]

I hope that servers will take it out from their list.
It's a poor designed, awful optimized, and that !@#$ green from the grass is annoying.
Sorry dude, I presume you worked some hours on it, but please pare our misery.
Did I mentioned that it looks REALLY bad ? And that ****ty grass is !@#$ ?

PS: Ah, and is perfect for Allies, no doubt.

You sir...... are a jackass!!

 

[Le0]

First of all, wow so much anger over here. Let's just calm down.

Having said that I'd like to point out that I'm doing this as a hobby and am completely alone on this. It's the first time I make a map for any game ever and so a lot of stuff is not perfect and I'm aware of this. However I don't think any custom maps will ever be of the same quality than TWI's maps. They have a big team to work on maps, one guy doing the map, a few others doing static meshes, they can schedule huge play test session and so it is expected that their map are going to look and feel better.
I know my map is not the most beautiful snow flake in the world don't worry
I'd like to make my own static meshes but I have a lot of learning to do with 3DS Max. And my photoshop skill aren't very good either but I tried to make something that was passable.

Now onto your post:

Of course. This time don't do it like TWI: Allies have equal or more reinforcements on all maps ! There's not a single map where Allies have less, even if they attack or defend.

But I'm afraid 400 is a big number, there will be no depletion on either team - you might aswell put 9999999 on each team.

Imho opinion it should be 300 to 250 for Axis - you might check the numbers on a full server ... Apartments and Red October will be good maps to do that

I'm going to test how many reinforcements sound good, 400 is the default reinforcements value in the SDK that's why I set that to this value. I will probably give more reinforcements to the attackers.

About the spawn distances: I'm sorry you see this way. I've told my reasons (defenders die less - that's why they have or SHOULD have less reinforcements and if a team loses less men AND brings them to the "battlefield" faster that team has a double advantage).

I've told you (and the others) to see how is done on the official maps, but I see the effort was too big

Do some screenshots like this (actually 2 screenshots "glued" together in one - one on the Axis spawn points, one on the Allies)



Do that for most or all objectives on the official maps and see if the attackers or defenders spawn closer - I'll tell you from now that it's the attackers.

I understand you are entitled to your opinions but I don't think there is any "Golden rule" about balancing like you say. Balancing is a very complex process , you could very well counterbalance the fact the defenders are closer to the objective by providing an advantage to the other team, like more reinforcements various routes to flank the enemy team or an objective capture zone biased toward attackers.
However I'm not saying your are talking **** or insulted you on this subject, I'm wondering why you took this personally, I'll take a look at various TWI's maps to get a better idea but if in the end defenders are closer to the obj and it works it'll stay like this. My goal is not to create a map on which 90% of games are stuck before the first objective...

You made a (and maybe will make more) decent map - I'm not going to tell you it's a great map like some excited spirits tell you: it's not great for a lot of reasons, from graphical, to layout, to balancing - but the most important on the long run will be the balancing one: people will overlook (more or less) the graphics, will overlook the fact they have to cram 20 people into a building to take it or defend it, but they will not overlook the fact they run 30 seconds, hide 10, shoot 5 - just to kill a guy who will be back in the cap zone within 20 seconds. Maybe enjoyable as a russian, but not as Axis.

Like I said before, this is my first map, I'm working on this alone, my 3DS Max and Photoshop skill are not great but I wanted to make something for the community and have a fun project at the same time. Some people seem to like it others not so much, I'm trying to improve the parts which needs to be so that everyone can enjoy it but apparently my grass is too green

See you on the battlefield

 

[peumobil]

Hello,

If the grass is too green (lol) you can remove one from them two that would allow to increase the FPS slightly. With regard to the classes if I can allow me
only 2 sappers - 2 squad lead would be enough.

 

[Landrovercrazy]

Hello,

If the grass is too green (lol) you can remove one from them two that would allow to increase the FPS slightly. With regard to the classes if I can allow me
only 2 sappers - 2 squad lead would be enough.

I think the squad leaders and amount of squads is limited in the SDK.
2 Squad leaders would limit the amount of players on each side.

This is an extract from TWI's guide on map making for Role selection in territory games...

"To add new roles to your level. go into the world info and add a ROMapInfo (under 'My Map Info'
Roles are broken down into the Team Leader (Commander), squader leader and fire team members. There can only be 10 people in a squad and only 10 squads.
Minimum Players - This determines at what point the squad/fireteam will become active based on how many people are in the server."

Therfore with 2 squad leaders, and squads of 10 men thats 42 players max on the map. I think some people would want it to go up to 64.

I am not sure if Leo can be bothered to mess too much with the squad lay out as it is. I quite like the small fireteam system. Just wish there was a way to make it easier to identify and work alongside your own squad.

AND... Lets all have a big high five over here for the support given to Leo and his hard work when jackass' (-=}WoLvErInE{=-) decide to write asinine (CrossTrain) comments.

So listen up Vocateam even when we disagree on issues, we discuss them in an adult manner because we respect all the work Leo does just to give us a few hours of fun in a FPS video computer game! If we didnt like the map we wouldn't be here! Peaceout Dcheese

 

[Kerc Kasha]

I think the squad leaders and amount of squads is limited in the SDK.
2 Squad leaders would limit the amount of players on each side.

This is an extract from TWI's guide on map making for Role selection in territory games...



Therfore with 2 squad leaders, and squads of 10 men thats 42 players max on the map. I think some people would want it to go up to 64.

I am not sure if Leo can be bothered to mess too much with the squad lay out as it is. I quite like the small fireteam system. Just wish there was a way to make it easier to identify and work alongside your own squad.

AND... Lets all have a big high five over here for the support given to Leo and his hard work when jackass' (-=}WoLvErInE{=-) decide to write asinine (CrossTrain) comments.

So listen up Vocateam even when we disagree on issues, we discuss them in an adult manner because we respect all the work Leo does just to give us a few hours of fun in a FPS video computer game! If we didnt like the map we wouldn't be here! Peaceout Dcheese

Really 3 squads would be fine as that + commander and sniper would equal to 32 slots per side.

I don't know why the vanilla maps have 4 squads.

 

[peumobil]

The number that I put is share report with the official maps of RO2
To see for how much players maximum is envisaged the chart leaves Leo?
I would have specified that it is for 32 players
2 squad lead
2 sapper (attacking only for destuction of objectives)

to increase the number of squad with of 32 players

example
3 squad 40 players
4 squad 50 players
4 squad 64 players

 

[Le0]

Hello,

If the grass is too green (lol) you can remove one from them two that would allow to increase the FPS slightly. With regard to the classes if I can allow me
only 2 sappers - 2 squad lead would be enough.

For beta 2 I already, altered the grass material brightness, lowered grass density and overall size to be smaller. I won't touch the grass anymore for beta 2.

You said after this post that you'd like 2 engineers and 2 squad leader only for servers with 32 players, is that right?
At the moment 16-32-64 player servers all share the same squad layout.

I think the squad leaders and amount of squads is limited in the SDK.
2 Squad leaders would limit the amount of players on each side.

This is an extract from TWI's guide on map making for Role selection in territory games...



Therfore with 2 squad leaders, and squads of 10 men thats 42 players max on the map. I think some people would want it to go up to 64.

I am not sure if Leo can be bothered to mess too much with the squad lay out as it is. I quite like the small fireteam system. Just wish there was a way to make it easier to identify and work alongside your own squad.

AND... Lets all have a big high five over here for the support given to Leo and his hard work when jackass' (-=}WoLvErInE{=-) decide to write asinine (CrossTrain) comments.

So listen up Vocateam even when we disagree on issues, we discuss them in an adult manner because we respect all the work Leo does just to give us a few hours of fun in a FPS video computer game! If we didnt like the map we wouldn't be here! Peaceout Dcheese

Well it is technically possible to make more squads than the number of squad leader because you can choose whatever role to be squad leader (MG, Rifleman etc.. ). But I prefer to have a squad leader as this role.

Really 3 squads would be fine as that + commander and sniper would equal to 32 slots per side.

I don't know why the vanilla maps have 4 squads.

The map at the moment contains 3 squads if I'm not mistaken and this is the layout currently set :

• Rifleman 24
• Elite Rifleman 1
• Machine Gunner 2
• Marksman 1
• Engineer 3
• Squad Leader 3
• Commander 1

For beta I will add 2 assault slots and remove one engineer slot so the final layout for beta 2 will be something like :

• Assault 2
• Rifleman 24
• Elite Rifleman 1
• Machine Gunner 2
• Marksman 1
• Engineer 2
• Squad Leader 3
• Commander 1

The comment that say that only 10 max people can be in a squad is a bit strange because it should not be working in beta 1 currently since I have only 3 squads but 35 roles assigned.
I'll have to check this.

Otherwise do you guys have any other suggestions for team composition?