Free aim on iron sights needs to go

[Hunt3r.j2]

TBH Free aim doesn't seem to make this game better or worse.

Make it an option, and then once the release is out, we can figure out for ourselves which is best.

 

[LemoN]

It's hard to describe. The rifle is still on my shoulder in a position where I'd be comfortable to fire it, yet I'm still moving it with my arms and keeping my eyes focused on the sights. I believe that type of motion is what is being modeled.

For what it's worth I can do this without moving my whole upper body, and I get a decent range of motion while still maintaining view on the aligned sights.

Think about it. Walk around with your weapon shouldered and aim as if you were ready to fire at different things as you go. (yes I know, safety, blah blah) You'll find that you don't move your body as if your arms are locked in position with your face glued to the stock.

Of course you can slightly move your rifle if you try it, but noone would do it IRL.

At last I would'nt do it

 

[Reise]

Would you rather jerk your torso around like a robot?

 

[LemoN]

Would you rather jerk your torso around like a robot?

No but having your torso, arms and head as one unit is simply the most comforting way to handle a rifle.

 

[Flogger23m]

Anyone with a rifle can tell you that this just isn't true. There is a bit of space to move when aiming down the sights. Try it for yourself if you can.

I think the free aim in IS accurately depicts that movement.

Will have to go and try it.

No longer have the Mosin, and my AR-15 has an A2 stock and 16" barrel. Would represent an STG-44 pretty closely.

I am not arguing that it can't be done, but it should be avoided. Sure, there will be a tiny bit, but it is really hard to control in a game. But, this is already modeled with the weapon sway/wiggle.

When I go to iron sights in a game, it should, IMO, be simulating me pressing the rifle hard against my cheek and shoulder for a perfect weld.

Its one of those things that is hard to model into a game. But if you do put it in, it feels hard to control, and brings what I liked about RO and hated about ArmA into it.




But, I think the best option would be to either enable or disable it in the options menu. Or be toggle-able in game, like the HUD settings in RO OST. Assign the toggle key to some odd key (*, / ect.) so it does not make the controls and aiming slow like in ArmA.

Of course you can slightly move your rifle if you try it, but noone would do it IRL.

At last I would'nt do it

And I'll have to quote this, as it is spot on IMO.

 

[Reise]

No but having your torso, arms and head as one unit is simply the most comforting way to handle a rifle.

Is it?

I hope this clarifies my point a little lol.

 

[LemoN]

Well, by locking up i mean in the horizontal axis

And even if the torso would not move at all and your arms/head/shoulder would have a 360 degree turning arc, it still would rule out free aim.

 

[Reise]

Well, by locking up i mean in the horizontal axis

Yes but what is happening when you're aiming upward or downward? Exactly the same movement depicted in the "free aim" feature.

And even if the torso would not move at all and your arms/head/shoulder would have a 360 degree turning arc, it still would rule out free aim.

Not true. If you can tilt your weapon up and down a bit while keeping your eye on the sights, cheek on the stock, and your torso straight, you can do the same in any other direction. Well, to an extent of course, but that extent is visible in the preview videos.

When you're aiming you have more or less a cone of movement available to you. Move past that threshold and your stance/form is compromised and you lose the ability to shoot reliably or aim correctly.

Moving your torso left and right as you aim in those directions will inevitably happen, but it is entirely possible to move your arms and your eyes before that. In ARMA for example, go into 3rd person while you're in iron sights "free aim." Notice how the soldier's arms move, not his entire upper body.

 

[Flogger23m]

Not true. If you can tilt your weapon up and down a bit while keeping your eye on the sights, cheek on the stock, and your torso straight...

Yes you can, but why would you? If you're looking down at your sights and not through them, then why are you looking at them in the first place.

Kills the point of being in iron sights.

 

[LemoN]

Reise, I dont know why you think that your camera is in your chest?

 

[Reise]

Reise, I dont know why you think that your camera is in your chest?

????

 

[Floyd]

<sigh>
My only suggestion would be to spend a few more hours of practice shooting at hard targets (paper or clay) on the range, in the dove fields, deer stands, or duck ponds.
No point in my continuing. My contribution bears not on fantasy. I'm out.

Floyd

 

[Reise]

<sigh>
My only suggestion would be to spend a few more hours of practice shooting at hard targets (paper or clay) on the range, in the dove fields, deer stands, or duck ponds.
No point in my continuing. My contribution bears not on fantasy. I'm out.

Floyd

Right Floyd, because I've never shot any of my rifles before. Because I've never held them to my shoulder and done exactly what ARMA and RO: HOS will be replicating. Because these games are based on "fantasy."

If you think it's impossible to properly aim and move like that maybe it's you who needs to spend some more hours at the range.

 

[LemoN]

????

Because only if your eyes are in your chest the movement of your upper body and arms makes any sense in terms of freeaim.

 

[zeroethics]

I just tried it with a Vz.24 rifle and produced a similar motion as was depicted in the preview videos.

Yes you *should* have the weapon snug on your shoulder, but these practices don't account for moving targets and targets above or below the shooter. It is entirely possible to move if you take a little pressure off and shift a bit. All while keeping your sights lined up.

Such motion should be even easier with weapons like the MP40, which has its stock folded and out of the way.

OMG Thank you! Somebody is getting it. Free aim in IS is: a) realistic B) natural and C) intuitive in game . It's not something that requires an extra button nor does it add too much difficulty, it simply allows the player a capability that they would have and use in the real world.

 

[Zetsumei]

Because only if your eyes are in your chest the movement of your upper body and arms makes any sense in terms of freeaim.

Euhm the camera can be higher as well. it can be in the same height as your eyes that only makes more sense. Its just that the center of your screen doesnt have to be the center of the vision. If anything with both versions it does look as if the camera is in the chest because you can see the weapons at your hip fully in your screen.

The picture of that image by reise was because people said that head, eye, and upper body lock into place.

And even if its your center of your eyes it doesnt have to mean that youre looking through the ironsights. There is no shouldered stance where youre not looking through the sights thats what it somewhat shows.

There is always a way no matter how fixed you would be to the gun to move your eyes to look over the ironsight to get a better look of the environment. Not for shooting but to not have that thing blocking your view.

You dont agree with us, we dont agree with you but none of the settings are clearly more realistic or anything. If it were there would be a discussion on gameplay matters and not realism.

 

[LemoN]

You dont agree with us, we dont agree with you but none of the settings are clearly more realistic or anything. If it were there would be a discussion on gameplay matters and not realism.

I have to disagree, the reason most ppl dont complain is because they think ArmA like freeaim is realistic, wich it isnt.

I would accept it if most ppl here would want freeaim in terms of your view, i.e. seeing it like through a window, but most ppl want it just because they are basing it on the wrong "facts" and think that you indeed can move your gun around your fov like in ArmA when you focus on the sights.

Untill this misinformation is dealt with I will continiue my fight against this incredibly gamey feature and will at last make ppl think about that feature once more.

Take Reise for instance: He points out the fact that you can indeed move your gun slightly if you want to. Yes you can, but noone would do it as it's just awkward and forcing yourself to do something you normally would not. It's just like focusing on something that is in your outer vision borders without turning your head, naturally you would indeed turn your head to focus that object. The perfect shooting stance is basically to lock up your entire upper body into one unit wich allows you to turn fast and accuratly and gives you the best controll over your rifle. The only way freeaim does indeed make sense in terms of Soldier = you (of wich i think the vast majority of the ppl see FPS games) is if the "camera" is located in the upper chest, then you would indeed have a slight noticeable freeaim wich would also be realistic.

I just don't want TWI to jump on the ArmA bandwagon wich means: Lulz if ppl think it's realistic then it is realistic!

 

[Floyd]

Rather than pull out my e-penis to qualify my comments (Ancient history for many, but I'd hold my past accomplishments and tangible skills in NRA sanctioned competition events against any civilian here), I'll explain my points and leave the discussion alone.

My points are thus:
Yes. Even if one has a perfect sight picture, that picture will flucuate around the bulls-eye (somewhat) beyond the control of the user. ROOST handles this very well, imo. Unrested, one's sight picture is on target breifly, then it begins to waver. Rested/prone it is steadier. Imo, this is done very well and does not unneccessarily interfere with the player's ability to control his game model. From the GameCon video ( [URL="http://www.bing.com/videos/watch/video/heroes-of-stalingrad-gc2009-pt-1/9F93EC540B47A91BBBFB9F93EC540B47A91BBBFB"][URL="http://www.bing.com/videos/watch/video/heroes-of-stalingrad-gc2009-pt-1/9F93EC540B47A91BBBFB9F93EC540B47A91BBBFB"][URL="http://www.bing.com/videos/watch/video/heroes-of-stalingrad-gc2009-pt-1/9F93EC540B47A91BBBFB9F93EC540B47A91BBBFB"][URL="http://www.bing.com/videos/watch/video/heroes-of-stalingrad-gc2009-pt-1/9F93EC540B47A91BBBFB9F93EC540B47A91BBBFB"][URL="http://www.bing.com/videos/watch/video/heroes-of-stalingrad-gc2009-pt-1/9F93EC540B47A91BBBFB9F93EC540B47A91BBBFB"][URL="http://www.bing.com/videos/watch/video/heroes-of-stalingrad-gc2009-pt-1/9F93EC540B47A91BBBFB9F93EC540B47A91BBBFB"][URL="http://www.bing.com/videos/watch/video/heroes-of-stalingrad-gc2009-pt-1/9F93EC540B47A91BBBFB9F93EC540B47A91BBBFB"][URL="http://www.bing.com/videos/watch/video/heroes-of-stalingrad-gc2009-pt-1/9F93EC540B47A91BBBFB9F93EC540B47A91BBBFB"][URL]http://www.bing.com/videos/watch/video/heroes-of-stalingrad-gc2009-pt-1/9F93EC540B47A91BBBFB9F93EC540B47A91BBBFB[/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL]), it would appear the RO:HOS attempts to compliment this system.

Yes. One can lift one's head up from the stock slightly and look around. But then one should lose their sight picture. Even though I shoot with both eyes open, I can't concentrate on my target, my surroundings and my sights simultaneously. In game one already gets the added bonus of actually being able to do both. From what I can discern, your definition of free aim is pretty much already modeled in game. When running, your weapon is more or less across your chest and moves as you run. When walking its pointed in the general direction of your travel and moves as you walk. Standing at rest your gun is in a low ready position. When you choose iron sight mode, the weapon is brought to your cheek and shooting where your sights are focused. When you walk in iron sight mode, the front and rear sights waver. And unlike real life, in all modes you are able to have full focus in both your weapon and your surroundings (and not fall down tripping over things). If you want to look around, you lower your weapon some. It appears to me that RO:HoS does the job of mimmicking real life application fairly well. What else is there to add? [URL="http://www.bing.com/videos/watch/video/heroes-of-stalingrad-gc2009-pt-1/9F93EC540B47A91BBBFB9F93EC540B47A91BBBFB"][URL="http://www.bing.com/videos/watch/video/heroes-of-stalingrad-gc2009-pt-1/9F93EC540B47A91BBBFB9F93EC540B47A91BBBFB"][URL="http://www.bing.com/videos/watch/video/heroes-of-stalingrad-gc2009-pt-1/9F93EC540B47A91BBBFB9F93EC540B47A91BBBFB"][URL="http://www.bing.com/videos/watch/video/heroes-of-stalingrad-gc2009-pt-1/9F93EC540B47A91BBBFB9F93EC540B47A91BBBFB"][URL="http://www.bing.com/videos/watch/video/heroes-of-stalingrad-gc2009-pt-1/9F93EC540B47A91BBBFB9F93EC540B47A91BBBFB"][URL="http://www.bing.com/videos/watch/video/heroes-of-stalingrad-gc2009-pt-1/9F93EC540B47A91BBBFB9F93EC540B47A91BBBFB"][URL="http://www.bing.com/videos/watch/video/heroes-of-stalingrad-gc2009-pt-1/9F93EC540B47A91BBBFB9F93EC540B47A91BBBFB"][URL="http://www.bing.com/videos/watch/video/heroes-of-stalingrad-gc2009-pt-1/9F93EC540B47A91BBBFB9F93EC540B47A91BBBFB"][URL]http://www.bing.com/videos/watch/video/heroes-of-stalingrad-gc2009-pt-1/9F93EC540B47A91BBBFB9F93EC540B47A91BBBFB[/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL]

As no one has yet to define what their idea of "free aim" is, my assumption is that you want to be able to raise your head above, to the side of, or below your weapon, maintain you sight picture, shoot, and hit the target with some degree of regularity. Otherwise, why not just lower your weapon out of iron sight mode? Look around and raise them back? The only difference I see between what is already implemented and what you are requesting it the ablilty to hit your target accurately while gazing around? Fanatsy imo.

If you are asking for front sights to move indepedently of the rear sights all the time, then I have to respectfully disagree with that concept in game. Playing Arma took only a few minutes before it made me sea-sick with its wavering sights. Irl, while I may not be able to completely control when my sight picture crosses the bullseye (the wavering RO does so well), I am able to control my sight picture unconciously through my motor skills. When I swing a weapon through a range of motion (and if you don't move your weapon, head, neck, shoulders and torso in unison....I just don't know what to say. I'm speechless and find it hard to believe that someone would teach that technique. But then I'm old and things change), I am able to control my sight picture.

The last thing I find enjoyable in a game simulation is the computer over-controling my motor skills and/or making assumptions about my ability to do so. The first lesson in marksmanship is the proper method of acquiring a good sight picture. Hold and mount your weapon properly and you will have the same sight picture each and every time (at least that is the goal). If nothing else, that will come through with repetition at the range or presumably on the battle field.

Yes, we can do a lot of things, irl. But just because we can, should we? Is it necessary to model in everything? Even bad technique? Why not vomiting? Where are my legs? I think what they have done well in modeling is what should be done. Though I don't necessarily agree with the breathing control, its not over bearing (like so many games) and for the mainstream I imagine it appears to be the "real" thing to do.

Lots of rhetorical questions. No need to respond.
I have faith that TWI will meet a happy medium that will satisfy most.


Floyd - out

 

[Zetsumei]

yes one should lose their sight picture when looking around other things. However without eye tracking the game doesnt know wether or not you look at the sights so it doesnt know if it should be greyed out.

Currently the sight picture wont be that different, because now you just move your gun down and look above the center of the screen to look away from the gun. Nothing changes from that perspective. Thats why for me on a realistic base its equal.

------------------------------------------

For people that feel that the center of the screen should always be a center of focus. (meaning that realistically beyond a 6

 

[Floyd]

If you want a definition of free aim.

Free aim means for me that the tip of the ironsight and point of impact can differ from the center of the monitor to places around the center. Nothing more nothing less.

No quarrel from me based upon that definition....as long as it is not overdone. One should be able to bring up their rifle fairly close to where they are 'looking'. As there must be a point of reference, there has to be some common point within the screen (generally the center). Otherwise it becomes a matter of 'luck'.

On another note, currently in ro i cannot look at the surroundings and my sight picture at the same time. And i wont be able to do that in RO:HOS either.

Sure you can, you just don't realize it. Lie down and sight your rested weapon on a corner, doorway, window or some other place you anticipate and enemy to come. Now you are free to look around the map. If you catch movement at the corner, doorway, window....click your mouse. No need to re-acquire your sight picture. Its already there. Not going to happen elswhere.

There is no medium here to pick though, as you either have freeaim or you have no freeaim. Everything between that is having free aim.

Using your definition, I concur.