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Do you like free-aim when using iron sights?
- Thread starter Proud_God
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I own a fairly large number of firearms and shoot regularly. I also skeet shoot. Everybody saying that it's more realistic to not have your gun fixed at the center of your vision, and everybody saying that human beings cannot swivel, track a moving target, and do so while keeping their sights at the center of their vision has probably never been shooting before, or at least not at moving targets.
Let's see if this guy is ever looking independent of where he's aiming:
The Shooting Show - Competition clay shooting with George Digweed - YouTube
Seriously guys, don't call it realistic when it isn't. I understand not having it centered while hipping, but if you bring up the sights, you're bringing them up to shoot at something and it makes little sense to have your gun moving independently from the center of your field of vision.
Let's see if this guy is ever looking independent of where he's aiming:
The Shooting Show - Competition clay shooting with George Digweed - YouTube
Seriously guys, don't call it realistic when it isn't. I understand not having it centered while hipping, but if you bring up the sights, you're bringing them up to shoot at something and it makes little sense to have your gun moving independently from the center of your field of vision.
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Oh please
"I own guns and shoot, therefore I'm right and everybody else is wrong"
I've owned and shot guns too.... big friggn whoop.
If I'm actually aiming and targeting a moving object... AND only focusing on that one target (one who skeet shoots one target at a time) then that's a different story than tracking multiple objects at once and trying to be more aware of my surroundings.
Perhaps the IS should lock to the centre of the screen when you focus / control breathing.... and that I can understand & accept.... but there is nothing wrong, in fact it's right, with having the existing free aim in the game.
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I think the freeaim just helps to simulate when you have a weapon shouldered, you look over the top of the sights to enlarge your FOV until you have a target. With no freeaim, I feel like I'm locked in robot style.
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You must be horrible at skeet if you don't simply sense the moving object with your peripheral vision while keeping your vision centered on your bead.
Assuming you play with depth of field turned on, your character's vision changes in relation to the distance between what the end of your gun is currently aimed at and yourself. If you are aimed at something at a distance and someone shows up close by and to the right of your screen, they will be blurry. It was clearly TWI's intention that you are NOT looking off to your left or right but rather focusing on your sights and only your sights. Having your aiming and movement independent from the center of your screen as a result is unrealistic, and a bit of a paradox.
Go ahead and defend the way it is on the basis that you like it. Opinions are exactly that and I cannot tell you or the majority of people what to like or not. The fact of the matter is that multiple people mentioned that the way it works currently is totally realistic. It isn't. Sure, maybe you wouldn't point your gun at ever single thing you see. Your eyes can move independent of your gun. You can do that if it's centered however. Moving it to the left to see thing towards the center and right would be like someone who is skeet shooting aiming intentionally way off to the side so he could see something which was right in front of him.
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![[Mad_Murdock]](/data/avatars/s/9/9417.jpg?1568638684){kind=avatar}
I like it, I think it does a pretty good job of giving you freedom of motion while keeping your visual reference frame fixed. And it is sometimes extremely useful to be able to shift your sights just a bit without having your entire view shift with them.
LugNut basically described the way I feel about it. When I have a weapon shouldered, my sights stay centered for exactly as long as I want them to. When I want to look somewhere else, or move the weapon away from my line of vision, I do just that. The weapon does not stay centered unless I want it to.
As for the "I own guns and shoot" argument, that could pretty much go either way you want, depending on the situation and what you are trying to do. In particular, I think we can all agree that tracking a live target in wartime at combat range and skeet are nowhere near a similar experience. And for that matter, neither are the technique of aiming a shotgun vs a rifled weapon.
LugNut basically described the way I feel about it. When I have a weapon shouldered, my sights stay centered for exactly as long as I want them to. When I want to look somewhere else, or move the weapon away from my line of vision, I do just that. The weapon does not stay centered unless I want it to.
As for the "I own guns and shoot" argument, that could pretty much go either way you want, depending on the situation and what you are trying to do. In particular, I think we can all agree that tracking a live target in wartime at combat range and skeet are nowhere near a similar experience. And for that matter, neither are the technique of aiming a shotgun vs a rifled weapon.
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Again.... you're talking about one target in a safe environment. You already know the direction of where the target is going to come from.... you don't have to scan an entire area around you, at varying distances, heights, angles, and looking for multiple targets.
If you think comparing skeet shooting to a combat situation where your life is in danger makes any sort of sense, you have another thing coming.
Skeet Shooting is nothing more than over glorified target practice..... in a situation like what RO2 depicts, you need eyes in the back of your head..... and having tunnel vision in a life and death situation is a good way of getting dead real quick.
That's basically exactly what I was explaining.... I'm focusing towards my sights still, but my head is positioned in a different angle, towards the area away from where I am aiming.
example:
I am aiming with my sights and focused, then in the game I tilt left a bit to scan around the area, yet my head remains in the same position. I still see the same area to where I originally was looking, but focused elsewhere other than the centre of the screen.
If I move too much, my head turns with the sights to maintain focus and the rest of my view begins to pan as required.... which is exactly what happens in RO2 right now with free aim. If you pan too far from the centre of the screen, the screen moves. It's exactly what happens when I am aiming in real life.... if I am only having to adjust a little bit of where I am aiming, I do so with my eyeballs, wrists / hands / arms without having to move my entire body or head... and we're only talking by a few inches / millimetres.
With that video of the chubby guy skeet shooting, he's going for a target that's much faster than a guy running off in the distance or sitting in one spot, thus he has to move his whole torso/head/arms to keep on target.... which is completely different from what free aim is representing or used for.
Panning your view using your head and torso is more for quick snap shots (ie: locked IS view)..... Free Aim is more for Marksman / Sniper reaction.... precision. If I am prone and aiming at a target off in the distance and they move a bit, I'm not going to reposition my entire body to keep on target with them, I'm going to slightly shift my forearms / hands towards where I now need to aim, yet my neck and head remain in the same spot.
Why this is so complicated to understand, I don't know.
It is and you have yet to prove otherwise.
Again, skeet shooting is a crap example for your argument. They're using shotguns on a fast moving target that requires you to move your entire body to keep on target..... which has nothing to do with what free aim represents in RO2 and accuracy is not as important with a shotgun due to the wide spread of the shot.
Exactly.
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In fact, I think nobody had understand this pool.
free-aim when using iron sights.
1. People don't know what exactly free aim is.
2. People don't know what exactly Iron sights are.
IMHO, Free aim in Iron Sights is ridiculous as soon as you're using a rifle. If the gun is on your shoulder, it's hard to achieve this in real life. With a pistol, why not.
Here a site that explains how works aiming in videogames (since the beginning) and it was made some months before RO2 is out. (using Google Trad)
http://translate.google.fr/translate?sl=fr&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=fr&ie=UTF-8&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nofrag.com%2F2011%2Fmar%2F22%2F37366%2F&act=url
free-aim when using iron sights.
1. People don't know what exactly free aim is.
2. People don't know what exactly Iron sights are.
IMHO, Free aim in Iron Sights is ridiculous as soon as you're using a rifle. If the gun is on your shoulder, it's hard to achieve this in real life. With a pistol, why not.
Here a site that explains how works aiming in videogames (since the beginning) and it was made some months before RO2 is out. (using Google Trad)
http://translate.google.fr/translate?sl=fr&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=fr&ie=UTF-8&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nofrag.com%2F2011%2Fmar%2F22%2F37366%2F&act=url
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In fact, I think nobody had understand this pool.
free-aim when using iron sights.
1. People don't know what exactly free aim is.
2. People don't know what exactly Iron sights are.
Um, I think everybody in here knows what's being talked about by now. The video of someone showing what it is in RO2 explains very well.
I understood the "Poll" quote well.
I think, however, that it's you not understanding what others have been saying or explaining about why they like it.
Again, if people don't like it, Action Mode is only a couple of clicks away.
The majority of people voted in favour of something you don't like, therefore they must not know any better or stupid.
Keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better.
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How can someone say free-aim on Iron Sights is not realistic?
Pick a gun, look through the iron sights. Keep your head still, start moving the gun and follow the iron sights with your eyes.
Ta-da, free aiming.
Pick a gun, look through the iron sights. Keep your head still, start moving the gun and follow the iron sights with your eyes.
Ta-da, free aiming.
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Seems to be over the heads of some.
Maybe if they stopped moving them, it'd make sense, yuk yuk. *slaps knee*
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Okay let me pick up my mauser which is 2 feet away and take a look. Nope, you're still wrong.
I don't understand why this is such a challenging concept for you to understand. If you bring up ADS you're looking down the sights. Not to your left, not to your right, but down the sights. Bringing up the gun partially and looking to your left and right doesn't leave you in a position to shoot immediately, but rather in the future, therefore it is not aiming down the sights but rather bringing up the sights and looking around. RO2 allows you to shoot immediately and accurately at whatever the gun is pointed at. This is because RO2 is assuming that bringing up the sights means you're looking at them and only them.
Personally I'm incapable of shooting a small target from 100 meters away while not even looking at my sights. It is plausible to do so in RO2.
Depth of field, as I was trying to explain and you clearly did not understand, is simulating what your eyeball is focusing on. Red Orchestra clearly believes that once your bring up your iron sights you are focusing on what they're pointing at and only that. ADS is not simulating bringing your sights mostly up and looking around for targets. It is simulating the act of aiming at those targets with an intent to shoot them and there is nobody in the world who is going to bring up their sights with the intent to shoot at a target and wildly move their gun around within their eye's field of vision for no reason.
What RO2 is simulating is if you raised the sights up to your eye, and then without moving your eyes or head at all, started moving your gun all over the place. You would have a set field of view and within that field of view your gun would loosely bob around the screen. That is not realistic. If you bring your gun up to your face, close on eye, and prepare to shoot something- whether it's open sights hunting, skeet shooting, or killing another human being, you are going to be focused on one thing and one thing only. You don't bring your gun up to your face to get a better view and look around, and as for zoom- there's a fantastic "realistic" effect, eh? Personally my eyeball which is made by Carl Zeiss has an 18-55 Lens, so my range isn't as far as say a 70-300 lens!
Nobody's eyeball operates like that, just like I don't have lens flares in my eyeball. There are certain things about this game which do not properly mimic reality, and that's fine with me, I don't really care because it's a freaking video game. Just don't pretend that it is reality and multi-quote me 10 times while repeating a bunch of complete fallacies and pretending that Red Orchestra 2 is a good example of realism, which it isn't.
I don't understand why this is such a challenging concept for you to understand. If you bring up ADS you're looking down the sights. Not to your left, not to your right, but down the sights. Bringing up the gun partially and looking to your left and right doesn't leave you in a position to shoot immediately, but rather in the future, therefore it is not aiming down the sights but rather bringing up the sights and looking around. RO2 allows you to shoot immediately and accurately at whatever the gun is pointed at. This is because RO2 is assuming that bringing up the sights means you're looking at them and only them.
Personally I'm incapable of shooting a small target from 100 meters away while not even looking at my sights. It is plausible to do so in RO2.
Depth of field, as I was trying to explain and you clearly did not understand, is simulating what your eyeball is focusing on. Red Orchestra clearly believes that once your bring up your iron sights you are focusing on what they're pointing at and only that. ADS is not simulating bringing your sights mostly up and looking around for targets. It is simulating the act of aiming at those targets with an intent to shoot them and there is nobody in the world who is going to bring up their sights with the intent to shoot at a target and wildly move their gun around within their eye's field of vision for no reason.
What RO2 is simulating is if you raised the sights up to your eye, and then without moving your eyes or head at all, started moving your gun all over the place. You would have a set field of view and within that field of view your gun would loosely bob around the screen. That is not realistic. If you bring your gun up to your face, close on eye, and prepare to shoot something- whether it's open sights hunting, skeet shooting, or killing another human being, you are going to be focused on one thing and one thing only. You don't bring your gun up to your face to get a better view and look around, and as for zoom- there's a fantastic "realistic" effect, eh? Personally my eyeball which is made by Carl Zeiss has an 18-55 Lens, so my range isn't as far as say a 70-300 lens!
Nobody's eyeball operates like that, just like I don't have lens flares in my eyeball. There are certain things about this game which do not properly mimic reality, and that's fine with me, I don't really care because it's a freaking video game. Just don't pretend that it is reality and multi-quote me 10 times while repeating a bunch of complete fallacies and pretending that Red Orchestra 2 is a good example of realism, which it isn't.
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At the end of the story, everybody thinks but nothing will change, so
Sorry, that's my fault.
Sorry, that's my fault.
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You do realize Action mode is not defined by it's lack of free aim, right? Ie, it's entirely possible for someone to not like free-aim in IS and not like Action. Besides, action mode also gets rid of free-aim in hipped mode, so I don't really see how that suggestion is relevant here.
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I see and understand both sides of the argument.
<epeen warning>
Among other shooting competitions, I used to be a tournament sporting clays (not to be confused with skeet shooting please. These are the RO forums. Lets keep things accurate...). I took 3rd in my state tourney in 1992 (using a 20ga shooting against 12ga.'s for those interested...)
The point is, I agree with most of mets' comments about sighting. My biggest disagreement is his discussion about looking at the bead. imo, the goal of a competent clay shooter is to be able to follow his target, raise the gun, fire, break the bird and never see his sights. It is a shotgun after all, and the goal is to have the gun pointed exactly where one is looking when it reaches the shoulder. . Before changing the rules to allow you to have the weapon tucked under your shoulder (as opposed to at your waist), we spent hours practicing raising the gun to a spot on the wall. While stationary bulls eye shooting with a rifle/pistol requires a different strategy, quick spot shooting (as in a combat situation) would borrow a lot from the clay shooting discipline.
Having said that. I fully understand and support the free aim concept adopted by RO2. Its already too easy to snap shoot and hit tiny targets as it is. So adding just a little more difficulty (and I do mean tiny) to acquire an accurate sight picture (i.e. having to shift one's gaze a few centimeters off center) is perfectly fine by me.
(I know Zets has an issue with the way the mouse and sights react. iirc, he plays with two screens. Perhaps its a function of having a larger screen that makes it show up more. I don' know. I just know I don't really notice the difference.)
Your mileage may vary.....
<epeen warning>
Among other shooting competitions, I used to be a tournament sporting clays (not to be confused with skeet shooting please. These are the RO forums. Lets keep things accurate...
). I took 3rd in my state tourney in 1992 (using a 20ga shooting against 12ga.'s for those interested...)The point is, I agree with most of mets' comments about sighting. My biggest disagreement is his discussion about looking at the bead. imo, the goal of a competent clay shooter is to be able to follow his target, raise the gun, fire, break the bird and never see his sights. It is a shotgun after all, and the goal is to have the gun pointed exactly where one is looking when it reaches the shoulder. . Before changing the rules to allow you to have the weapon tucked under your shoulder (as opposed to at your waist), we spent hours practicing raising the gun to a spot on the wall. While stationary bulls eye shooting with a rifle/pistol requires a different strategy, quick spot shooting (as in a combat situation) would borrow a lot from the clay shooting discipline.
Having said that. I fully understand and support the free aim concept adopted by RO2. Its already too easy to snap shoot and hit tiny targets as it is. So adding just a little more difficulty (and I do mean tiny) to acquire an accurate sight picture (i.e. having to shift one's gaze a few centimeters off center) is perfectly fine by me.
(I know Zets has an issue with the way the mouse and sights react. iirc, he plays with two screens. Perhaps its a function of having a larger screen that makes it show up more. I don' know. I just know I don't really notice the difference.)
Your mileage may vary.....
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And what you're not understanding is that you have two eyeballs.... one is your dominate eye which you are focusing on and aiming with, and your other eye (if you keep it open) is what gathers the surrounding area.
Focus on this word:
FLAPJACKS!!!
^ As you focus on this word with both of your eyes open, turn your head slightly to the left and then the right..... does your view remain consistent? Do you not notice that as you turn your head a little bit you gain a bit more information from one side and lose a bit on the other... AND that your focused view does not remain centred???
Now this is focusing on a stationary object while turning your head.... now imagine yourself focusing on a moving object with your head remaining stationary and just move your eyes and following your eyes slightly with a weapon in your hand.
You can do this by sticking your finger up in the air, focusing on it, and then moving it a bit while keeping your head still.
I don't dispute the first part of the above, and it is indeed what RO2 is trying to replicate, especially with the depth of field..... but wildly moving their gun around?
The free aim in iron sights is a difference of an inch or a few CM's before the whole view begins to pan..... again, it's not like the iron sights hit near the edge of your screen before you start to pan your whole view.
You're exaggerating and it's not helping you win this argument.
No, it's not... and if you can't figure it out by now, you never will.
^ And there's your problem with understanding this whole topic of free aim with iron sights.
If you are aiming with only one eye open, then yes.... free aim with iron sights makes no sense because you're giving yourself a Pirate Complex by limiting your view having one eye closed.... if you are used to aiming with both eyes open, such as myself, then it makes perfect sense to have free aim in the game with iron sights up.
And another thing you don't seem to grasp.
Looking without focusing on anything gives you a wider angle of view, but when you decide to focus on a specific object, the details of that object become clearer and more defined. Within RO2, the scale of everything is smaller than it would be in real life in order to fit everything on the screen you would normally see without focusing on something. If you decide to focus on some small target off in the distance in this same view, you're just going to see the same amount of pixels (limitation of the monitor's display) The Focus/Zoom feature is to bring things in that area you are looking at into more of a 1:1 scale in which you would typically see in real life, thus more detail showing (larger) as the surrounding details on your screen diminish.
Look at your weapon being held on screen when you are not focused and tell me that weapon is as large as it would be in real life (It isn't.)
Now when you focus in the game, that weapon in the corner of the screen is far more closer to the size it would be in real life.
Then don't pretend that you know what's being talked about. That's not meant as an insult at all, but when we're all talking about one thing and you reply with something that's completely different and has either no relation to what's being talked about or just completely misses the mark, then you don't know what's being talked about.
I can't explain it any more simpler than I already have... if you can't figure it out by now, you never will.
Make a custom server with the Action elements of Free Aim in IS off.
Problem solved.
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