Bullpup's work great against FP's if you know how to remove its head. Just aim at the head and give them hell.
Upvote
0
Tactics Bullpup Backup
- Thread starter Demonic Spoon
- Start date
you do realize that dual handcannons have massive DPS and that AK with even comparable damage would be way overpowered
and yes I know its .50 pistol ammo, but I am pretty sure it is more powerfull than 7,62mm rifle ammo
theres a reason its used for hunting elephhants xD
Upvote
0
Alright, so in general at this point I can use the bullpup on most anything.
The only problem is scrakes. There's enough scrakes in later levels that you can't just unload a full clip into the face of one whenever one appears. For this, I use the handcannon. Sadly, I've learned I can't just open up or I end up missing 80% of my shots. Still ,it does -enough- damage...and as long as I take out the smaller ZEDs, my team can rip up the scrakes.
The only problem is scrakes. There's enough scrakes in later levels that you can't just unload a full clip into the face of one whenever one appears. For this, I use the handcannon. Sadly, I've learned I can't just open up or I end up missing 80% of my shots. Still ,it does -enough- damage...and as long as I take out the smaller ZEDs, my team can rip up the scrakes.
Upvote
0
If AK does not have comparable damage then commando will still use dual handcannons instead of AK.
AK NEED to deal comparable DPS to dual handcannons.
AK in the hands of a commando NEED to deal comparable DPS to dual handcannons in the hands of a sharpshooter.
...or it will be underpowererd. Nobody would use AK instead of handcannons if handcannons weight half and have better overall DPS, now would they...?
Upvote
0
[Taken from game-files]
Look like it will be a weapon with good damage per bullet but high recoil after all 
Code:
[AK47AssaultRifle]
Description="A classic Russian assault rifle. Can be fired in semi or full auto with nice knock down power but not great accuracy."
ItemName="AK47"
Upvote
0
Ahem. I can easily think of a few ways that the AK will still be viable as an alternative even if the Handcannons outdamage them (Which they SHOULD, IMO!)
1) Cost. Unless the AK costs $1,000 (Unlikely), then it automatically has the Handcannons beat here.
2) Reload speed. Dual handcannons take ages to reload, even with a Sharpshooter. The AK is bound to reload faster, especially in the hands of a Commando.
3) Sights. The AK is also bound to have better sights than the non-existant ones on the Dual Handcannons...
4) Ammo capacity. You only have 5 'Clips' of Dual Handcannon ammo and firing rapidly, you can go through this in no time. Even when burst firing, the AK should outlast this, especially if the Commando gets higher ammo capacity for it.
5) Clip Size. The Dual Handcannons only have 16 shots. Period. Even if the AK only has a default clip size of 24 (It could be as high as 30, plus commando bonuses), it still has more shots before a reload than the Dual Handcannons. That'll come into play when faced with dozens of 'crap' specimens. Shooting a dozen crawlers with the Dual Handcannons leaves you almost dry while it'll still have you with half a clip in the AK.
So chill out and don't freak out if the AK isn't the highest damaging monster on the planet. It doesn't need to outdamage every other weapon in the game to be useful. And with Commando bonuses, I think damage will be a non-issue against all but Fleshpounds and Skrakes. But strategically, those aren't really the Commando's specialty anyway...
Upvote
0
I think you totaly missunderstand all my posts where i typed DPS.
For me, the definition of Damage Per Second is when you multiply damage per shot with number of shots in a clip and divide that with the number of seconds it take take to fire all rounds in the gun as fast as possible including reloading.
I think that AK47 will have a comparable stopping power (DPS) to the Dual Handcannons (calculated and balanced with stats like damage per bullet, number of bullets until reload, bullets per seconds, seconds to reload).
Now, having said that... The description of AK47 read:
Cost. Bullpup cost
For me, the definition of Damage Per Second is when you multiply damage per shot with number of shots in a clip and divide that with the number of seconds it take take to fire all rounds in the gun as fast as possible including reloading.
I think that AK47 will have a comparable stopping power (DPS) to the Dual Handcannons (calculated and balanced with stats like damage per bullet, number of bullets until reload, bullets per seconds, seconds to reload).
Now, having said that... The description of AK47 read:
In gameterms that DO sound to me that it will have simular traits of dual handcannons. ie a rather high rate of fire, a rather high damage per bullet and a rather high recoil.Gamefiles said:
Cost. Bullpup cost
Last edited:
Upvote
0
Still missing the point that the Commando isn't supposed to be the class taking down Skrakes/Fleshpounds in the first place. I'm not trying to be a stick in the mud here...with the AK, the Commando will probably DOMINATE all smaller enemies. Popping everything from Clots to Gorefasts with a few shots. But Skrakes/Fleshpounds are not what you're meant to fight, period. Those are more for Berserkers or Supports, simply because they can take them down faster, using fewer resources (Health & Ammo).
Yeah, you may be able to do it in a reasonable amount of time with the AK, but you'll still be wasting an unhealthy amount of ammo and, in all likelyhood, getting hurt when he rage-charges before dying. This is a very noticable thing with the Firebug's Flamethrower as well. Yes, you can kill a Skrake with the Flamethrower. But in doing so, you waste a ridiculous amount of ammo and expose yourself to his rage as firing rate of your weapon makes you do damage over time, not an insta-kill like Shotguns/Hunting Shotguns/Nades/Chainsaw Alt Fires. It'll be the same way with the AK.
And BTW, I'm speaking towards the HARD difficulty setting. I'm sure the AK will eat Skrakes alive on Normal, as the Flamethrower currently does...
Yeah, you may be able to do it in a reasonable amount of time with the AK, but you'll still be wasting an unhealthy amount of ammo and, in all likelyhood, getting hurt when he rage-charges before dying. This is a very noticable thing with the Firebug's Flamethrower as well. Yes, you can kill a Skrake with the Flamethrower. But in doing so, you waste a ridiculous amount of ammo and expose yourself to his rage as firing rate of your weapon makes you do damage over time, not an insta-kill like Shotguns/Hunting Shotguns/Nades/Chainsaw Alt Fires. It'll be the same way with the AK.
And BTW, I'm speaking towards the HARD difficulty setting. I'm sure the AK will eat Skrakes alive on Normal, as the Flamethrower currently does...
Upvote
0
SAYS WHO?
WHY? SAYS WHO? Just because it been that way up until now (because commando lacked a end-game weapon with stopping power - such as the berserker's chainsaw, the support spec's hunter shotgun or the sharpshooters xbow) does NOT mean it have to stay that way. Think outside the box Nano...
With the addition of a heavy duty assult rifle, commando TOO will have stopping power to take them down without taking damage or wasting too much resources. Excuse me, but I thought that was the whole point of adding the AK47 that TWI describe as "a heavier weapon for the Commando Perk and provide extra stopping power over the base Bullpup" and that game files describe as "A classic Russian assault rifle. Can be fired in semi or full auto with nice knock down power but not great accuracy". How can you not translate this to "give commando a tool to take scrake down faster, using fewer resourcer. Replacing their dual handcannons (or chainsaw) backup weapon"?
I have no problem taking down a scrake that charge towards me when i spam dual handcannons as a commando. WHY would not the AK be enough to do the same? If i CANT then commando will still use dual handcannons (or chainsaw) as backup weapon for later waves (as they complement the bullpup, let commando deal with threaths the [weaker] bullpup handly poorly), NOT The AK47 (if it can not take down scrakes (and the patriarch) in a more efficient manner than handcannons (or chainsaw) then it will not replace dual handcannons (or chainsaw) for commando as backup weapon and it will not complement the bullpup at all [not likely]).
I am talking about hard/suicidal 6 player setting. I gun them down with my bullpup on normal.
I think you are wrong.
You think I am wrong.
Time will tell. Let's just agree that we disagree for now. Time will tell who is right and who is wrong.
Last edited:
Upvote
0
Monolithos ius right
@Nano: it makes no sense that commando (or some other class) should not be able to take down certain enemies
face it, a lone enemy (whatever it is, except maybe FP) should be easily downed as any class assuming you use the correct equipment
zombies (or specimen) are about outnumbering you, also it
@Nano: it makes no sense that commando (or some other class) should not be able to take down certain enemies
face it, a lone enemy (whatever it is, except maybe FP) should be easily downed as any class assuming you use the correct equipment
zombies (or specimen) are about outnumbering you, also it
Upvote
0
We might get a bit out of topic here, but since firebugs no longer can let the "damage over time"-effect of fire burn down a fleshpound slowly without enrage it is now the only perk that do not have a way to deal with fleshpounds.
This goes for scrake as well, but i found some funky code about zombie movement speed that i've also seen in game a few times (an enraged scrake still move at normal movement speed if burned enough. Dropping dead without a speed increase). Might gonna read up on that code a bit more to figure out how you as a firebug can make it happend 100% of the time.
I predict a change or addition in favor of firebugs down the line...
Maybe fleshpounds should take double damage from fire (bloats do and flehspounds take double damage from frag nades - firebugs only get fire nades). Or maybe a fleshpound currenty burning, or burned enough, should not randomly enrage (only from too much damage taken per two seconds). Or maybe the enrage from too much damage taken per two seconds should not count firedamage taken (but still enrage after random time). Shrug.
This goes for scrake as well, but i found some funky code about zombie movement speed that i've also seen in game a few times (an enraged scrake still move at normal movement speed if burned enough. Dropping dead without a speed increase). Might gonna read up on that code a bit more to figure out how you as a firebug can make it happend 100% of the time.
I predict a change or addition in favor of firebugs down the line...
Maybe fleshpounds should take double damage from fire (bloats do and flehspounds take double damage from frag nades - firebugs only get fire nades). Or maybe a fleshpound currenty burning, or burned enough, should not randomly enrage (only from too much damage taken per two seconds). Or maybe the enrage from too much damage taken per two seconds should not count firedamage taken (but still enrage after random time). Shrug.
Last edited:
Upvote
0
I ve been playing firebug and support last two days (because i was close to lv4 on both and my SS and commando were just at lv5) and I have noticed scrake being very slow, similar to stunned, this sometimes happen when loadsa damage is dealt to him, but I remember doing it with firebug by constantly burning him with flamethrower on ˝full auto˝
D)nonetheless, FPs suck as firebug, though with a help of teammates you can save yourself if you have dual handcannons (which are a must as firebug)
Upvote
0
Yes, this is my point. The perk should have tools do handle things in the game without falling back on the signature weapon of another perk (in this case sharpshooters). Fleshpounders DID have a weakness where firebugs set them on fire and let the DoT burn them down without ever cause them to enrage. This was changed, but firebugs was not compensated in any way.
They fixed commando, but firebugs still need some lovin'.
Last edited:
Upvote
0
*Sigh* I'm not saying that you CAN'T deal with Skrakes. I'm just saying that other classes can do it better and, in the case of Berserkers, are almost specifically geared to deal with the threat, where a Commando isn't.
Commandos that empty mag after mag into a Skrake are doing two big things: First, they're not keeping smaller enemies (Crawlers and Stalkers) under control as they're a huge nuisance for Supports and Berserkers. And second, they're wasting large portions of their ammo on a single target.
Wasting even a single, full mag on a Skrake is just inefficient. That's at the very least, 10% of your ammo. And, in all likelyhood, it'll STILL be alive, so you'll need to waste more. Whereas that same mag could kill upwards of a dozen other specimens. Use logic here. And all of this that I'm saying is just compounded on Hard and up, where it'll take even MORE ammo to bring down big enemies, while still leaving you able to take down small ones quickly and effectively.
All-in-all, though, I'll say flat-out that Firebug has the worst time with the big enemies. Pathetic short-term damage (You have to let them burn FOREVER to deal comparable damage with a simple shotgun blast) coupled with the fact that if you try to constantly spray, your Flamethrower's recoil makes it leap out of your hands makes it a nightmare to take on beefy enemies on hard and up, even with a Level 5 perk...
Commandos that empty mag after mag into a Skrake are doing two big things: First, they're not keeping smaller enemies (Crawlers and Stalkers) under control as they're a huge nuisance for Supports and Berserkers. And second, they're wasting large portions of their ammo on a single target.
Wasting even a single, full mag on a Skrake is just inefficient. That's at the very least, 10% of your ammo. And, in all likelyhood, it'll STILL be alive, so you'll need to waste more. Whereas that same mag could kill upwards of a dozen other specimens. Use logic here. And all of this that I'm saying is just compounded on Hard and up, where it'll take even MORE ammo to bring down big enemies, while still leaving you able to take down small ones quickly and effectively.
All-in-all, though, I'll say flat-out that Firebug has the worst time with the big enemies. Pathetic short-term damage (You have to let them burn FOREVER to deal comparable damage with a simple shotgun blast) coupled with the fact that if you try to constantly spray, your Flamethrower's recoil makes it leap out of your hands makes it a nightmare to take on beefy enemies on hard and up, even with a Level 5 perk...
Upvote
0
lol you are killing scrakes the wrong way
it mosly takes around half the bullpup clip (on full-auto) to bring scrake to around half HP, than you can just take dual handcannons and unload into him
also bullpup ammo is cheap (10% for a clip) so its not really an issue except that you might run out of ammo
also why are we talking about scrakes and FPs like a lone person should down them?
both scrake and FP are generaly abozut team concentrating and unloading into them and if prople actualy boother to do that, these two enemies can hardly do any damage at all
it mosly takes around half the bullpup clip (on full-auto) to bring scrake to around half HP, than you can just take dual handcannons and unload into him
also bullpup ammo is cheap (10% for a clip) so its not really an issue except that you might run out of ammo
also why are we talking about scrakes and FPs like a lone person should down them?
both scrake and FP are generaly abozut team concentrating and unloading into them and if prople actualy boother to do that, these two enemies can hardly do any damage at all
Upvote
0
No Fleshpounds are about making sure you find them before any idiot teammates start spazzing out and shooting them randomly, and calmly decapitating them in a single bullet, at least, until they get fixed.
Scrakes should really be left to teammates though. I don't care how cheap the Bullpup ammo is, emptying a clip into a Scrakes face burns through so much ammo when you fight them multiple times a wave. I've been favouring the Chainsaw though to the Handcannons, but it depends what your teams like. If its working well together i'd go with the Cannons so you can quickly unload a clip into a Scrake/FP if its really necessary, otherwise stick to the other foes. Theres nothing worse than surviving a raged FP to be killed by a Crawler that got past when everyone was busy with the FP.
Scrakes should really be left to teammates though. I don't care how cheap the Bullpup ammo is, emptying a clip into a Scrakes face burns through so much ammo when you fight them multiple times a wave. I've been favouring the Chainsaw though to the Handcannons, but it depends what your teams like. If its working well together i'd go with the Cannons so you can quickly unload a clip into a Scrake/FP if its really necessary, otherwise stick to the other foes. Theres nothing worse than surviving a raged FP to be killed by a Crawler that got past when everyone was busy with the FP.
Upvote
0
Sharpshooters solo one-shot scrake with their crossbow long before they reach your team. They have 40 bolts per wave designed to take out sirens (one bolt), scrakes (one bolt) and fleshpounds (three bolts).
Berserkers solo stun-kill scrake in a matter of seconds as long as someone kill the little guys (or he throw a nade behind the scrake before he goes in for the kill to buy time). Without even spending ammo at all.
Support specs can shoot a couple of normal shotgun shells in its upper body to make it enrage and then an alt fire from the hunter shotgun to kill it solo without taking damage.
Firebugs can, solo, heat up scrake enough to prevent it from rushing at all. It just fall down dead without a ever gaining a speed increase or the firebug taking damage.
And, after the patch, Commando can switch to their AK47 and kill it solo using less than a magazine, they have 10(!) clips per wave, without taking any damage.
All offensive perks have an efficient way to deal with scrakes with their perk's own signature weapons. All is balanced. All is good.
Shrug.
Last edited:
Upvote
0
You have to stop playing on normal
Anyway, my tactic against Scrakes is the following:
1) Protect everyone around you from the weaker enemies. Do this for the whole duration of the procedure!
2) Activate voice.
3) Say "Hey, Sharpshooter, Can you drop this Scrake here for me?"
4) (Fptoink! Scrake dies from a single Crossbow headshot)
5) Activate voice again.
6) Say "Cheers mate!"
Works on ANY difficulty where even a semi-competent Sharpshooter is present.
Works on Fleshpounds as well if you have one Sharpshooter and a Support Specialist, or just 2 Sharpshooters.
If they appear nearby, you need to decap it or ask your berserker to give you a helping hand.
Upvote
0
1st of all decap is NOT getting ˝fixed˝ because its intended feature not a bug and secondly, the only person that can reliably decap FP is the one that is targeted by him, also there is NOTHING else to do when he enrages but unloading into him
and yes its pretty easy to do it if all 6 people start shooting it, even if some pack bullpups and other weapons with lower DPS
Upvote
0
### Real World Ballistics Discussion ###
7.62x39mm vs 12.7x33mm
.50AE, 6" barrel, factory load:
325 gr, at 425 meters per second, with 1,897 Joules / 1,415 foot-pounds force.
(hot handloads can increase the pressure, but are not recommended by the manufacturer)
7.62x39mm, undisclosed barrel (assuming average rifle):
123 gr, at 710 meters per second, with 2,010 Joules / 1,480 foot-pounds force.
or
154 gr, at 641.3 meters per second, with 2,059 Joules / 1,519 foot-pounds force.
Even though the 7.62 bullet weighs less, it goes a LOT faster, and has more energy when it's fired from a longer barrel. Couple that with high capacity, rapid fire capability, and not being a ridiculously huge handgun, the AK-47 is generally a better weapon. (Shooting a .50AE DE with one hand is challenging, shooting it with your weak hand is not smart, shooting two of them at once is just crazy. Hollywood movies aside.)
All numbers from wikipedia. Other sources and personal data may vary wildly.
### In Game Discussion ###
I hope the AK is a strong weapon. I hope we can carry the bullpup and an AK, it would be great to not need to rely on a shotgun or HCs as backup.
As a new player, focusing on commando, I have a hell of a time with the tougher enemies. I can mow down hordes of the little guys no problem, but whenever the chainsaw or traffic light guys come after me, I basically have to train them on my team, who either kills them or we all die. (I suck, and play on pub servers) I have no idea how people manage to kill those guys. I can sometimes kill the chainsaw guy by unloading everything I have on him, but I still take damage and get screwed if other stuff is around. Being able to switch up to a higher-damage weapon to take on harder targets like that would be awesome.
Upvote
0