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[Game] Star Wars: Force Unleashed

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#61
Profe said:
I don't like being lied to, no one likes it, but EVERYONE lies for one reason or another. I've learned to live with that, bull**** sells, it's OUR responsibility to not fall for it, *****ing about it is not gonna change anything, no one is gonna stop lying because it makes you angry.
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Isn't that sad? We have to scan shady blogs for scraps of ingame videos made by a shaky cam just to get a general idea of what the game plays like.
If you order a week in a hotel somewhere and the hotel isn't as good as advertised you can get a refund! Shouldn't it be your reponsibility to search for some cellphone-videos of the place before?
If someone sells me a car and sais it has only been driven 10.000 miles while in reality the car has been around the world a few times, don't you think I should have a right to complain?
Why do you accept it so easily that games are hyped to be something entirely different than what they are? If things really have to be cut due to unfortunate (and in EA's case artificial) deadlines, why can't they inform us about it?

Profe said:
You may have not said dumb but I know you are thingking it :D, you did however say naive, but did it ever occur to you that some people might actually enjoy the games, even if they aren't what they are hyped to be?
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Fable: If you buy it because you think it is a role playing game that offers you a lot of freedom, a huge world to explore where every action you take has a consequence you are naive.
If you buy it because you like hack'n'slashes with tacked on life-sim elements that take place in beautifull albeit corridor-like environments you are not naive.

Now guess why people baught Fable when it was released?
Almost everyone baught it because they thought it was going to be the new epitome of freedom in a role playing game. How could they have known better? The only videos existing where those of earlier versions of the game or those with camera angles that didn't show the so-called "wood" was just a corridor through a wood.

Soem people where dissapointed and called Fable crap, which it isn't.
Soem people forced themselves to like it, because they payed good money for it and exaggerated the freedom aspects of the game to others so they didn't have to admit they were wrong.
And some (the majority of those populating xbox forums world wide) are just kids who never even played a real role playing game like Baldur's Gate 2, Gothic, Morrowind or Arcanum before and they believed the hype even after they baught it and are still convinced that Fable is a game in the vein of those classics.

What I want to say is: Not too many people baught/buy Fable for what it is but they buy it because they think it is something else. Some people end up liking it anyway (like me), but that doesn't change anything.
Profe said:
Where do you get the idea that people buy games solely because of ad and hype.
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So much for that.
Profe said:
People don't buy sports games because of the hype, they buy em because they like sports, racing games because they like racing, shooters to get the enjoyment of shooting people without the consequences, etc.
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Do you really believe that?
Do you personally go into a shop and simply buy any football game because you happen to like football?
Do you buy random racing games just because you like racing?
(oh, btw. you are playing shooters for the wrong reason. You scare me. j/k :D)

Profe said:
Advertising helps reach a wider market, it doesn't create it, games are designed towards a market.
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The problem with "reaching a wider market" isn't that good ol' EA think, hey some people in the texan outlands might not have heard about that great game, lets show them some Ads, but that they "widen" the market by lying to people who wouldn't like the game and tell them it is something they like.

Profe said:
I think that's the actual reason for a lot of the ranting, the realism niche aren't getting what they want, but if you ask me it's a poor business decision to lop a big budget on a niche market like realism.
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Why do they try to cater for it then?
Almost every wargame no matter how arcadey it is claims to puts you in the shoes of a soldier. Do this and that, JUST like the marines do it! Experience the thrill of combat! etc. pp.
Appearantly people want their war games to be realistic, but somehow they don't at the same time or else realistic games would sell a lot better.
"Oh, this is too realistic for me. It sacrifices gameplay."
"Well, why don't you just buy a faquing gameplay game then!"
No, people have to be convinced that their game is oh-so-realistic.

Some people who actually like realistic games buy it because of that (and because of "first impressions" they read but didn't know they were from people who just don't know sh!t about realism and were really convinced Medal of Honor is an accurate depiction of combat in ww2) and then they are dissapointed.

Why can't they advertise a game for what it is?

Why can't they say: "Buy CoD2 because its multiplayer is fast and frenetic and the singleplayer is epic over-the-top shooting-lots-of-people-in-the-face action!" That's what it is and loads of people love it for that (I love the multiplayer but I don't like the singleplayer too much).

Profe said:
The point is, instead of angrier consumers, we should instead try to be smarter consumers. We won't change the industry by getting angry, we can however research a product before buying it, and instead of falling victim to hype and camping out in front of best buy to be the first to get the latest thingamaboob, why not be patient and get some reactions and impressions before being the first to be disappointed.
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Don't tell me! Tell the masses. The masses are stupid. The masses buy what is popular. Hype gives the impression of popularity. EA gets rich.
The people you meet on internet forums like this one can already be considered hard-core because regular customers just buy the game because of an Ad they saw or because of what is on the box and even if they don't like it you won't hear a peep from them on the internet.

Besides: Why is it necessary for us to wait for a few of the earlier folks to fall for the ads to see if we can go for it too?

I want to be able to go shopping without someone walking ahead triggering mines for me.

Getting angry doesn't change anything in the first place, but it shows you finally saw through the BS. If that doesn't make you angry you must be some zen ninja or something.
Getting angry also serves those intelligent customers who try to inform themselves before buying a game. They can read your ranting and agree - or not, so it is even compatible with what you say about smart customers.
 
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#62
20080201.jpg


Good post Murphy, tl;dr but I know it's good.
 
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#64
Wow, it looks like some lame fan-fic or one of the super terrible spin off books that were released like a shotgun blast in the late 90's where all the Jedi's where basically demon gods from hell (and eventually Lucas stepped in and made the authors tone it down iirc). Yoda by far the strongest jedi seen in the movies was using his full concentration to lift an X-Wing out of a swamp, but this dingus can pull down a Star Destroyer.

Sorry making things
 
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#65
I just started playing Kotor 2, great game, original, nice story, long playtime. Too bad it was released too soon and has alot of bugs. Games these days just have the same gameplay put in a different context. if you played one of them, you've played them all. Also, singleplayer games are dying, these days you have an 8 hour graphics tour as single player and then the multiplayer part. There's no more storytelling, no more conversating with npc's, less atmosphere.
 
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#71
Murphy, if you are making a reservation for a hotel, you usually read info and reviews on the hotel aswell, and that is your responsibility. It's the whole point I'm argueing, RESEARCH BEFORE you buy. If you do considerable research and are still dissatisfied, tough luck, you don't always get what you expect.

You keep saying everyone bought fable because blah blah, good thing you surveyed and asked almost everyone why they bought it. I know people who bought the game simply because they wanted a cool rpg for their xbox, and people who bought the game knowing it was not what it was hyped to be, and I'm willing to bet a lot of people bought the game without ever hearing about the hype, as a present perhaps.

Yes I believe people buy games for reasons other than advertising. Do you not think it's more likely a person would buy Madden if they liked football? and less likely to buy a FIFA game if he doesn't like soccer? FIFA and Madden sell better because they use better advertising to appeal to more people. Call it lying if you want(really), advertising is like that, heck some ads don't even inform you about a product. I would bet that if a publisher made a comercial in the form of a yahtzee review, which never show actual game content, and are totally lame, it'd still draw in buyers.

Why do they cater to realism players? So you buy it, it's that simple, they tell you it's "realistic" so you buy it. It's sketchy too, because maybe to you and I who have played RO and other such games COD4 is not very realistic, but for someone who is not used to such games it might be the most realistic experience .

I don't have to tell the masses, I'm not in some crusade to make games better, or educate people on what they should and shouldn't buy. As far as I can tell a most people are content with their purchases, if people enjoy their mediocre games, why should I be telling em not to buy em? To me it's just as bad to turn someone away from buying a game they might enjoy, because of incesant bickering and bashing on the publisher, developer, or the game itself.
 
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#72
Profe said:
Murphy, if you are making a reservation for a hotel, you usually read info and reviews on the hotel aswell, and that is your responsibility. It's the whole point I'm argueing, RESEARCH BEFORE you buy.
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Who said I don't do that? I just said that I hate that I am forced to do that. If a hotel posts fake photos on the internet while it is a real dirthole they get sued and you get your money back, btw. So that's a totally different case. Ever tried to get your money back when your game doesn't have, say, depth of field rendering like it was added to the screenshots on the company's website? Or if a feature had to be cut but no one told you about it and the comany's website still sais it is in the game?
No you didn't and if you did you wouldn't have succeeded.

It is legal and it is accepted that we are lied to. People like you even defend that by saying: Well, research...

You can't honestly tell me that this is right.

Profe said:
You keep saying everyone bought fable because blah blah, good thing you surveyed and asked almost everyone why they bought it. I know people who bought the game simply because they wanted a cool rpg for their xbox
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I don't need a survey for that... I know two people in rl who did that and several people in forums I visit. I never heard of anyone who baught it because they wanted an action game, but that's what it is!
If you know people who baught it because they wanted an RPG for their xbox then those have been ripped as well: It is a hack'n'slash! It was hyped to be an rpg, but it was a hack'n'slash with life-sim elements.
I'm not saying it is a bad game, but it is not what we were told it was going to be.

Profe said:
I'm willing to bet a lot of people bought the game without ever hearing about the hype, as a present perhaps.
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Well, people who just go out an buy random games for themselves or those they need a gift for don't really count in this argument, do they?


Yes I believe people buy games for reasons other than advertising. Do you not think it's more likely a person would buy Madden if they liked football? and less likely to buy a FIFA game if he doesn't like soccer? FIFA and Madden sell better because they use better advertising to appeal to more people. Call it lying if you want(really), advertising is like that, heck some ads don't even inform you about a product. I would bet that if a publisher made a comercial in the form of a yahtzee review, which never show actual game content, and are totally lame, it'd still draw in buyers.

Profe said:
It's sketchy too, because maybe to you and I who have played RO and other such games COD4 is not very realistic, but for someone who is not used to such games it might be the most realistic experience.
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CoD4 was never meant to be realistic! It's not like they tried to make it realistic but they couldn't get it done as well as OPF or ArmA so they said, "well, it's realistic enough for most people".
CoD4 was carefully planned and executed to be what it is: An action-packed, cinematic shooting-fest.
Why the hell isn't it advertised for that? People love it because it is what it is! People (except some RO-forum hard-liners...:rolleyes:) don't play it and think: "Ah, I wished it was more realistic". People play it and think: "Wow, this is bad-a$$!"

The only people who play it and think: "Wow, this is real. In war they do exactly what I do" are dumb. There is no other word for it! And if advertising only caters for the dumb, then I feel offended when it tries to cater for me, because I don't like to be treated as dumb.

Profe said:
I don't have to tell the masses, I'm not in some crusade to make games better, or educate people on what they should and shouldn't buy. As far as I can tell a most people are content with their purchases, if people enjoy their mediocre games, why should I be telling em not to buy em? To me it's just as bad to turn someone away from buying a game they might enjoy, because of incesant bickering and bashing on the publisher, developer, or the game itself.
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Bashing is never good. What is good however is to discuss games and to point out flaws and tell people what the game really is.
In these boards as soon as someone qualifies a game as "not realistic" this can be seen as bashing it, but that's not the case in more moderate zones and it is startening to lighten up in here as well...
CoD4, to take that example again, is not a realistic game. People should know this before they buy it. They should know that it is all about action and bad-a$$ "holy sh!t" moments all wrapped up in an awesome presentation on an extraordinary engine.
You yourself said that people need to research before they buy it. What good would that research be if other's couldn't voice their opinion about the game?
 
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#73
CoD is obviously not as unrealistic to most people (including the mass media btw) as games like Unreal Tournament. For the same reason people see the violence presented in movies like Tears of the Sun or Saving Private Ryan as more real and thus often as more offending than the violence in movies like Aliens or Terminator. The mere fact that they use real world equipment, armies and scenarios makes these games and movies more realistic to, I dare say, "most people".

To us hardcore gamers that may be superficial realism. To them, it's the other way around: Our defintions of realism seem superficial: You really think it counts to most people if an AKM is called AKM instead of AK-47, has the right amount of recoil and the ejection port on the correct side? Don't get me wrong it does count to me, but 90 per cent of the world does not give a damn.

If they see real weapons, real uniforms, if people speak military code and seem to use military tactics, then it's a realistic game or movie for them.

That's why games like CoD4 are advertised like they were "realistic" and I don't blame them.
 
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#74
Exactly what I mean, Krazy. I've even still heard people babble that OFP, and RO aren't as realistic as they'd want, I'm starting to think some people want PTSD from their shooters.

Again, advertising a game like COD4 as realistic is simply to draw in buyers from the realism crowd, an "I wish it was more realistic" is exactly what I hear from some such gamers.

Advertising will more often than not be aimed at the lowest common denominator. Scene after scene of seemingly realistic(if by hollywood standards, which is what most people know) explosions, carnage, and violence are attention grabbers, if you made an ad focusing on your correctly placed ejection ports, authentic insignia in your historically correct uniforms, and realisticly simulated beard growth, your sales probably won't be all that great.
I'm not saying you shouldn't express your opinions on a game, heck I already expressed I think COD4 sucks, but that's far from bashing an unreleased game because of a video hyping its features. I mean who knows, it might not be what you expect, but just like fable, you may end up liking it anyways for what it is(though unlikely with starwars games).

And what's the deal with bad-a$$? I get the impression you also have something against bad assery.
 
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#75
@Kraut:
Ejection ports and weapon names are the least of CoD4's problems (I use the word "problem" for the lack of a better term. What I mean by it is: "things that make the game unrealistic"). The masses of often respawning enemies and the unrealistic missions are what makes the game unrealistic. Not the amount of recoil or the side of the ejection ports.
OPF has a few anachronisms even and every weapon has the same reloading animation, but things like that are details.

It's the basic game design that counts, in my opinion. Ghost Recon 1 didn't even have weapon models, for example, let alone ejection ports and the like, but the basic gameplay design was made to be relatively realistic.

That is not the case in CoD1234.
Those games are made to be fast paced action thrillers and people love it for that.

Profe said:
And what's the deal with bad-a$$? I get the impression you also have something against bad assery.
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I thought I had to circumvent the swearword-filter, whence the dollar-signs. Of course I have nothing against badassery. :p

Profe said:
Exactly what I mean, Krazy. I've even still heard people babble that OFP, and RO aren't as realistic as they'd want, I'm starting to think some people want PTSD from their shooters.
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That's a completely different story and as I am not a realism fanatic I am not the one to talk to about that. However if a game is as realistic as OPF it is only natural to think of some other features that might fit into the game, those being of a realistic nature too of course, or else they wouldn't really fit. Also, balancing patches/mods are around for almost every major moddable game and in the case of already very realistic shooters those balancing mods wouldn't really be needed as balancing isn't as much an issue in a fight between 1985's Americans VS. Russians as it is in a fight between a Flak-Monkey and a Goop-God in UT2004 the balancing patches don't fiddle with that but just try to get the stats of the weapons even closer to their real-life counter parts. How much that really changes, let alone enhances the gaming experience is another question.


Anyway, we are drifting away into discussions of examples used for the main discussion. The whole realism deal was just brought up as an example for why publishers advertise a game as something it really isn't.

Let's get back to the Star Wars game for the sake of staying on-topic:

Why didn't they advertise it along the lines of:
"What you always wanted to do/see in the Star Wars universe!"
but had to advertise it as being authentic when it clearly isn't?

I mean, it's fine if they want to make up their own piece of deviating fan-fiction, but shouldn't they be honest about it and tell people that they are making a game that takes place in the Star Wars universe but is totally over-the-top?
I mean, it's evident and if people decide to buy the game based on that video they decide so because they want to let Stormtroopers fly around and not because it is true to the feeling of the old Star Wars movies.
So wouldn't it be better for their sales too if they stuck to that and hyped those possibilities?
 
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#76
I thought it was obvious that the examples above were just that: examples. I could've very well taken respawning enemies, or hitscan weapons, or whatever else realism fans think doesn't belong in a realistic game.

The point stands: Outside of these forums there exists a world full of people who have no idea what I was just talking about. They see a game where soldiers bleed, kill and in a scenario strikingly similar to the one they had just seen the minute before on the news and to them that feels REALISTIC.

Want proof? Since you're German I guess you know the MTV videogame show "Game One". I may quote their review of Call of Duty 4:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=wJjbkqg9Beo

"...the high degree of realism typical to the series has been carried over to part 4..."

"... I think the increasing realism in these games will become a problem in the future..."

They especially had a problem with the 1st mission where your teammates kill the sleeping enemies and the level where you mow down masses of respawning enemies with the gunship btw.
 
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#77
Realistic violence != graphical realism != realistic feel != realistic gameplay

In the media those things are often mixed up, either due to incompetence or intentionally.
As for the other examples:
Hitscan or not doesn't really matter either. In the RO forums this is one criterium that blown up out of proportion because RO has bullet physics and other games don't. A game without bullet physics can therefore not be good. Same with crosshairs. Who cares about crosshairs? How often have you read "I'm not buying this, this has crosshairs" on these boards? Too often. Rainbow Six 1 was pretty realistic but it had only crosshairs. Those are just details and I think you know this because you pointed out the same with GRAW2: That it is slow paced and tactical regardless of details like bullet physics and the like.
Respawning enemies aren't the main problem either. It's the dumb masses of enemies that are the problem. Respawning or not.
CoD4 was made to look realistic, not to be realistic. If a gaming mag (or channel) points out how well it achieves the former that doesn't say anything about the latter.
CoD4 simply isn't realistic: and it's not a matter of opinion (!), in terms of some RO-fanboy nitpicking about ejection ports, recoil or bullet physics, but it was never even meant to be realistic. They didn't put all those respawning hordes in there accidentally! The game is carefuly crafted to be what it is and the devs knew perfectly well that that isn't realistic.






Now we are here again. Realism was only an example for how developers lie to sell their stuff, which is my main concern and in this particular case, why they said that the game would be authentic to Star Wars.
That statement in the trailer to that Star Wars game was the problem. I used realism as an example and now you come along and say a) some people don't like realism anyway and that is fine, who are you to tell them what they should like? (I never did) b) sellers are allowed to lie about their product because some people they tricked into buying it might still like it c) some people buy games without being influenced by advertising (which I think is nonsense since even the coverart qualifies as advertising in my opinion and there are hardly people who just buy ANYTHING and don't look at ANYTHING) d) RESEARCH! Its your own fault when you are being lied to and now e) some people believe it when they are told CoD4 was realistic...

A lie is a lie. Some people might not spot it, some people might like the outcome anyway, but I for one don't like being lied to.

From a purely moral standpoint: Lies are wrong.

And they don't become less wrong if less people are able to find out they are lies and they certainly don't become less wrong because they are only told to make more money!
 
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