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Who agrees with my opnion on beserker?

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#41
Steeps said:
I'm in the middle on the whole berserker situation; I don't think kiting is such a bad thing but I do think he's a little too strong right now. Most people here have a problem with kiting and will continue to have a problem with the zerker until kiting is gone. It has little to nothing to do with him being op or whatnot.

I have no problem with kiting. It isn't something that I like to do every single game, but I don't see why people shouldn't be allowed to play like this if they don't want to. It's fun sometimes, and if I don't want to kite and see a kiting team on a server I just leave and go elsewhere. Sure, kiting games are popular, but I still see more stationary games than zerker ones. It's not like either type is hard to find.

But with that being said it is a little too easy to kite and there really is no downside to making mistakes. I say change the fp rage mechanics so he can't reset, lower his speed to 20%, and lower damage resistance to 25-30%. I personally think support is currently a bigger game breaker than zerker is right now, but that's just me. :D
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Thats a interesting post. The problem, I think, a lot of people have with kiting games is not that the bezerkers (and sometimes a medic) is overpowered, its that they can't play the classes they want, even in a kiting role, and this leads to the easiest way out which is yelling 'OP!!!'. For example, if all classes got a speed boost to keep up, it wouldnt really be stopping peoples from playing 2/3 of the classes in game. Just fro arguements sake I often SHarpshooter in kiting games because its more than possible. If ALL classes could keep up and therefore at least stand a chacne for the more casual gamer to at least play the perk they want, if not the method of killing zeds they want, maybe this would alleviate a LOT of the stress we see floating about.

For example, all classes get a 10 or 15% run speed increase (lets just say), crawlers husks and sirens pierce zerker damage resistance (making them rely on teammates for heals, which also means less time attacking = less dps on the wave, so zerker is able to kill all and keep his 'defence' while still relying on other perks in this class absed game...) and FP's get that rage-o-meter fixed from just turning off when they cant attack.

*Kiting is less viable for all zerker, while mroe viable in a mixed perk game.
*The game is more more difficult, which is always nice on HoE.
*Did I say everyone can kite, not just Zerkers (who need teammates to clear trash and heal them slightly more)
 
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#43
Neom.1r said:
Thats a interesting post. The problem, I think, a lot of people have with kiting games is not that the bezerkers (and sometimes a medic) is overpowered, its that they can't play the classes they want, even in a kiting role, and this leads to the easiest way out which is yelling 'OP!!!'
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I like the you assume that we think like this >.>

I've played beserker and the ease of running around and kiting fleshpounds and stunlocking scrakes, with the added on damage resistance and speed bonus to help you run away.
I'm not asking that you kill beserker or kiting. Just keep the game balanced, good zerkers can adapt to any reasonable nerf.
 
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#44
To quote myself (and Dolphin Buff Man) from the locked thread (the one that unfortunately ended up in flamey battles)

Originally Posted by Dolphin Buff Man
And how can constant movement be out of Killing Floor feel? I think that if i was in a zombie apocalypse, i'd be constantly moving, so I think this is more true to it than camping. Although that's not necassarily right either because some people would hole up somewhere. And that si where killign Floor has achieved it's job; it has catered for all plays tyles, not just one. If you don't like the play style, find another server. ;)

And that is a reasoned arguement ladies and gentlemen. I would also like to invite constructive criticsm, as i will provide a valid reasoned response, and if i can't find a good response, i'll concede defeat. :rolleyes:
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Originally Posted by Aze
This is a good point but there needs to be said a few things:
It's not the concept of kiting itself which is bad, i'd like kiting as a TEAM to happen, with VARIED perks and not just purely Berserkers/Medics. But right now, there is basicly 2 things to do:
1) Kite with Berserker (+ occassional Medic)
2) Camp with a team of any kind of perks

There are multiple reasons for this:
1) Berserkers can handle ANY specimen alone, which i think everyone agreeds is overpowered. Fixing the Fleshpounds rage mechanics so they only pause, instead of reset, when it misses a swing or is out of line of sight, would make the Berserker unable to kite ALL specimen by himself
2) The Berserker and Medic are much faster than every other perk, especially Berserker. Tone down both perks movement speed (15 or 20% max), then all the other perks can keep up a bit better if the team is gonna kite together.

The thing people dislike is not necessarily the kiting itself, it's that the Berserker can kite everything ALONE with ease, without any need of the other teammates, which is wrong. Doing the Fleshpound change makes the players have 3 choices, if there is a Berserker in the team:
1) The Berserker(s) has to stick with the camping team
2) The team can kite around together with the Berserker(s)
3) The Berserker(s) can kite a bit away from the group, but have to fall back upon sighting a Fleshpound, requiring the backup of the antifleshpound perks.

This is good, because any of these choices then requires that you have to play as a TEAM. The Berserker is no longer (not as much at least) the alone hero that kites everything without any need of assistance.
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#45
TheBoobyTrap said:
How is the rage meter wrong which affects beserkers?
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Im under the impression that it is exploiting a mechanic(bug?) where the FP will reset his 10+0to5 second rage counter if he loses sight of his target, or misses an attack. Zerker runs in, smacks upside the head, run back as the FP takes a swing, rage counter reset. If its clever use of mechanics, then I would feel it an interesting emergent gameplay issue, if not, its exploiting a bug.

Being able to reset a FP by LOSing him any class can do, fire, 2 second rule, fire, LOS to keep him from enraging. Perhaps the inclusion of this mechanic(bug?) allows zerkers the opportunity to do what ranged classes can do, ie, do damage to FP whilst still maintaining him in the unraged state.

At least, that is what I have inferred so far from the numerous discussions here about the beserker class.
 
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#47
Pika-Cthulhu said:
Im under the impression that it is exploiting a mechanic(bug?) where the FP will reset his 10+0to5 second rage counter if he loses sight of his target, or misses an attack. Zerker runs in, smacks upside the head, run back as the FP takes a swing, rage counter reset. If its clever use of mechanics, then I would feel it an interesting emergent gameplay issue, if not, its exploiting a bug.

Being able to reset a FP by LOSing him any class can do, fire, 2 second rule, fire, LOS to keep him from enraging. Perhaps the inclusion of this mechanic(bug?) allows zerkers the opportunity to do what ranged classes can do, ie, do damage to FP whilst still maintaining him in the unraged state.

At least, that is what I have inferred so far from the numerous discussions here about the beserker class.
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Yeah but IMO you shouldn't change the FP rage meter reseting when you leave the LOS, how else are commandos or firebugs meant to kite? I think they should stand a chance and be able to kite like that, but beserkers having less speed and mobility would make more of a challenge rather than a walkthrough.
 
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#48
zerkers are fun

zerkers are fun

i've been following this thread sort of half-heartedly because i've heard this argument before. personally, i REALLY like kiting around with a team of zerkers because it's fun. yes, you can argue that it's over-powered, but under the right circumstances and player, any perk can be considered over-powered. and when you kite with a zerker, you've got to strap in for a long game, cause it takes awhile to cut through 300+ specimens. It might take hours of concentrated gameplay, but the team dynamics are essential and communication is a must. This to me is vastly more interesting and, as I said, FUN than sitting in a corner with a bunch of support specialists blasting shot into flesh for 10 waves. yawn. again, that's just my opinion. but make no mistake -- on HoE, there are no guarantees.

kf is a great game in part because it allows for so many variables. On a public server anything goes; if there's a particular style or way you want to play, then get a private server. But leave the zerker alone! In a group of varied perks I don't think it's overpowered, and a axe-stun can give a good team just the opening they need to blast away the scrake and still leave time to kill it's siren girlfriend behind it.
 
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#49
You can say that the berserker is strong because he can't be grabbed, has damage resistance, etc, but the real reason for his strength and why you can't realistically play anything else other than medic in kiting games is solely because of the speed bonus. If every class was 20% faster you would see kiting demolitions, commandos, firebugs, supports, and sharpshooters as well. This is his real strength, and why you don't see berserkers with camping squads very often. Aside from situational tanking (which medic can probably do better) a gun is almost always more effective than a melee weapon.

This is why I don't see kiting as a bad thing (aside from the fact that I enjoy it sometimes :p). The berserker was clearly designed for mobile play. Maybe the developers didn't quite envision fleshpound kiting and one out of three games consisting of 5-6 zerkers, but I don't believe for a second that this "kiting" idea came out of left field. It doesn't make sense to create these huge maps - where it can take up to a minute to walk from one end to the other - when a team is just supposed to stay in one corner for the entire game.

I guess the lesson to be learned from this is if a sequel is made you shouldn't include two completely different styles of play that sort of contradict each other. I really hope a sequel would encourage mobile play regardless of the perks. Perhaps not running around in circles for two hours, but you shouldn't be able to stay in the same corner for ten waves on such a large, well-designed map. My favorite moments of KF take place in areas where you can run around or camp, such as the roof of Hospital Horrors (only if that amp wasn't so broken :() and the open area between the church and police station on West London. You can run around as berserker and cut zeds up or blast away as a sharpshooter, commando, etc. I hope future maps have more areas like that.
 
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#50
If he is so easy to be I challange an HoE SOLO round to the ones who call "op".

-three maps of your choice to play (no customs). Must be a long game!

-use berserker obviously.

-use berzerker all the way through, even the Patriarch!

-I want a screen shot of your victory with the scoreboard up on all three maps.

-If this is done I will do the same three maps with a different perk and post my screen shots of victory. The perk I use will be used through the whole map, no switching to demo at Pat for pipes and that sissy stuff.

If the berserker is op you should be able to provide us with screen shots and I should not be able to. Simple honest challenge.
 
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#52
RUSTIK said:
-If this is done I will do the same three maps with a different perk and post my screen shots of victory. The perk I use will be used through the whole map, no switching to demo at Pat for pipes and that sissy stuff.

If the berserker is op you should be able to provide us with screen shots and I should not be able to. Simple honest challenge.
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Gaurantee you'll kite your way to victory (Except with Support maybe), kiting is an overpowered tactic that isn't restricted to Berserker only. Berserker just excels at it and has a much larger room for error due to his speed, no clot grab, unlimited "ammo" and godlike damage resistance.

Those strengths combined with kiting is what leads people to believe the Zerker perk is massively overpowered, but it isn't really. Kiting is.

(Although his damage resistance could do with some fine tuning, little too high right now)

His strengths wouldn't really matter if Kiting was made impossible or extremely hard, like changing the FP rage mechanics for example so that his timer doesn't reset when losing LOS or attacking unraged, that alone would hugely effect zerkers being able to kite so easily.
 
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#53
SMIFF said:
Gaurantee you'll kite your way to victory (Except with Support maybe)
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I tank, I run (or kite), I do what I have to to win it just depends on the map. I can tank with berserker too but you have to adapt. Running from danger is smart when given the opportunity. I play solo mostly because online headshots don't work nearly as well (not kfs fault). I master solo though, I'm hardly a team player either, but online I do my best to play the team game. When in Rome do as the Romans. (not an angry comment and I know yours wasn't either)

and the challenge still stands
 
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#55
To me finding a place to hole up for 10 waves with a team is op, It so rarely fails. Running hardly fails in solo, try to reverse the roles though a team kites online, hole up in single player and you will find death and defeat. the 2 styles are not really op they just serve better depending on team or no team. I have NEVER in my over 1000 hours of KF seen a team comeback and win when the soloist soloed to the next wave after the rest of the team died. The simple fact is there is not enough money to go around and everyone dies the next few waves it just prolongs the defeat. Never fails. The point of the challenge was to show people they will die in solo many times trying to kite, because it's not as easy as it looks on paper.
 
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#56
How well a perk fairs solo is a poor measuring stick given that there are a max of 70 some specimens in a wave, they do 25% less damage, and have far less health. You could solo HoE with a level 0 medic with some luck and lots of kiting. Does it mean level 0 medic is OP? Nope, it means solo is far easier and different than a game with a full team.
 
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#57
Well it isn't that kiting is easier. It's just easier to compensate for mistakes. A stationary team can win just as easily in half the time.

The issue is if your only sharpshooter dies and you don't have 3 supports or a berserker then scrakes are most likely going to pose a serious threat. If one or two of your berserkers dies in a kiting game everything is still absolutely fine. The game might just take a little bit longer.

But still, while none of the perks are game breaking in the slightest support is the first one that I'd go after. ;)
 
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#58
Like I said try holing up in solo, no kiting, you die 90% of the time even with the reductions you mentioned. Also my challenge is solo against solo not an online team. I'm not trying to make enemies but it's not as easy as people make it out to be in text. Thats why I say go and prove to me its that easy! Alot of this thread is based off of skill too im sorry a new player lvl0-5 will die every time on HoE trying to solo its kinda funny actually.

and if you insist I will through in a faked player and still try my luck.
 
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#59
Your challenge was to beat any game solo, no restrictions on play style save for win bombing the patriarch.

RUSTIK said:
If he is so easy to be I challange an HoE SOLO round to the ones who call "op".

-three maps of your choice to play (no customs). Must be a long game!

-use berserker obviously.

-use berzerker all the way through, even the Patriarch!

-I want a screen shot of your victory with the scoreboard up on all three maps.

-If this is done I will do the same three maps with a different perk and post my screen shots of victory. The perk I use will be used through the whole map, no switching to demo at Pat for pipes and that sissy stuff.

If the berserker is op you should be able to provide us with screen shots and I should not be able to. Simple honest challenge.
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Please, point out where you said no kiting in your challenge. As a matter of fact...you said:

RUSTIK said:
To me finding a place to hole up for 10 waves with a team is op, It so rarely fails. Running hardly fails in solo, try to reverse the roles though a team kites online, hole up in single player and you will find death and defeat. the 2 styles are not really op they just serve better depending on team or no team. I have NEVER in my over 1000 hours of KF seen a team comeback and win when the soloist soloed to the next wave after the rest of the team died. The simple fact is there is not enough money to go around and everyone dies the next few waves it just prolongs the defeat. Never fails. The point of the challenge was to show people they will die in solo many times trying to kite, because it's not as easy as it looks on paper.
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Now I'm confused. You say "running hardly fails in solo" but at the end say your challenge was "to show people they will die in solo many times trying to kite". Okay then....

RUSTIK said:
Like I said try holing up in solo, no kiting, you die 90% of the time even with the reductions you mentioned. Also my challenge is solo against solo not an online team. I'm not trying to make enemies but it's not as easy as people make it out to be in text. Thats why I say go and prove to me its that easy! Alot of this thread is based off of skill too im sorry a new player lvl0-5 will die every time on HoE trying to solo its kinda funny actually.

and if you insist I will through in a faked player and still try my luck.
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Wait, you said you wanted people to see that kiting "is not as easy as it looks on paper". Now want people to try "holing up in solo". Perhaps you should make up your mind on what you are trying to show, yes?

Oh, and the bit about how team kiting ends up in "death and defeat"? That made me chuckle. Enjoy, 7 videos of a full team kiting. Chances are you won't bother watching each video in its entirety because you'll get bored after about 2 minutes in.



Yup, kiting in a team definitely ends up in "death and defeat". If you honestly think team kiting is harder than it looks, then you're doing it wrong.
 
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