Who agrees with my opnion on beserker?

[Neom.1r]

I like the you assume that we think like this >.>

If you notice, I put 'I think', because thats my opinion on the matter.

The whole 'challange thing' is completely redundant, as the game, in my opinion, should be about class interaction and not how well a single class can do without teammates. While it is fun, it does not address any of the issues at hand. It wouldn't prove anything relevant, as doing the same with more players would have completely different results. Hardly anyone plays exclusively on their own.

I also am of the opinion that surrounding the Patriarch with chainsaws is lame, but it has hardly any of the impact on other people as kiting teams do with regards to how much they force someone to change their playstyle. And that is the main issue with the Bezerker, for me.

 

[Aze]

Well my point of the matter is this:

Kiting game or camping game, these 2 styles are ok to play the game with, that's not the problem.

The problem is:

* Berserker kites easier than any other class (Damage resistance, not grabbable, tremendous speed) and thus also has the best survivability.
* Has unlimited ammo in the perked weapons.
* Can solo any specimen, if kiting is performed (which is much harder to do on smaller maps, yes, we know that, not the point).

Considering all these 3 strengths together at once, i think the Berserker is overpowered and i don't see how anyone can actually disagreed on that matter . Now what are the options, basicly, we could do to fix this status, without breaking the perk?

1) Kiting/Survivabilty: Reduce speed, damage resistance or remove antigrab - I think the speed could be nerfed a little to make sure that if the team kites (mixed perks i mean), the other perks has a bit of an easier time to keep up with the Berserkers, plus to make Berserkers a bit less awesome at kiting. Maybe the resistance too, but only very very slightly. Antigrab should not be touched imo.

2) Unlimited Ammo: Make weapons break / add stamina for melee attacks. Imo, that is kind of stupid as that would basicly make you even MORE prone to kite (especially if a stamina-meter was added)! So, no to these ones.

3) Solo Omnikiller: Make the Berserker unable to solo all specimen alone. THIS is the most critical part imo. No other perk can solo any specimen AN UNLIMITED AMOUNT OF TIME! Yes, the Sharpshooter, Demolitions and Support can solo any specimen too, but not for an unlimited amount of time since they have ammo to worry about, especially Demolitions (M14+LAR Sharpie worries less about ammo, but the Sharpshooter in general has headshots to worry about on top of that). Plus, neither of these 3 perks aren't even nearly as good at kiting as the Berserker.
Back to the Berserker: As i said in point 2, it would be stupid to add Stamina/Breaking weapons, as that would just promote more kiting. Thus, to instead make sure the Berserker relies more on his teammates than now, make at least the Fleshpound his main counter-specimen. Make it unkiteable.

Thus, to sum up:
* Reduce movement speed quite alot (down to 15 or 20%)
* Reduce damage resistance a little, if at all (down to 30 or 35%)
* Make Fleshpounds unkiteable (at least fix the "swing-and-miss" rage-reset thing)

EDIT: Why did i suddenly get so many dislikes for this when it seems to be something everyone agrees with?

 

[Big_BenKYS]

I wonder if it would be better if they gave the Zerker a weakness against ranged specimens like the Siren and Husk so that he'd be more reliant on his teammates to take them out. I'm not sure if his current damage resistance applies to them or not, maybe it'd be as simple as just removing his resistance specifically for them.

Just fixing the fp rage mechanics would help a lot I think, without zerker being able to kite the fp so easily he'd finally have a serious threat.

 

[Steeps]

Zerker doesn't suffer from the magnetic clot grab.

What I was trying to say is that if a berserker could be grabbed by clots it wouldn't be as bad as, say, a demolitions or sharpshooter being grabbed thanks to the increased damage and swing speed of the katana. If you get rid of the clot resistance on zerkers I doubt it will make much, if any difference regarding kiting or how the perk is played in general.

If your playing a public game and the teams kiting, either join them and kite or leave. No ones forcing you to kite in a game. Some people like camping, others like kiting, if you really have issues with kiting than play with people you know. The games been made so that you get a choice between camp and kite its that simple.

Agreed. That's why I don't understand why kiting is so evil (sure, it is a little too easy but there's nothing fundamentally wrong with this style of play). If you don't like kiting just leave the game when you see a bunch of berserkers running around. You aren't being forced to suffer through the game; you can even leave before you press "ready".

Thus, to sum up:
* Reduce movement speed quite alot (down to 15 or 20%)
* Reduce damage resistance a little, if at all (down to 30 or 35%)
* Make Fleshpounds unkiteable (at least fix the "swing-and-miss" rage-reset thing)

I agree with movement speed at 20% and damage resistance at 30%. I don't have anything against kiting fleshpounds and the swing-and-miss tactic is fine with me (as I said I have no problems with people kiting if they want). I would just get rid of the fleshpound auto-reset by leaving his line of sight. This way you can still kite all you want, but you are forced to constantly engage and you can

 

[9_6]

get your own on solo this is rediculous I watched your videos and you exploit the fleshpound rage reset, I will make this clear once, I have NEVER used that myself and if you think you are good with berzerker for doing so your a joke.

I don't think he's the right guy about whom you could say something like that.
In fact, this shouldn't even be an argument at all, right?

The reason I want solo pictures because it is harder than online and when you don't have a team saving your butt or helping out with kills, this is a pure environment for testing a lone perk against other perks without help.

I'm sorry but everyone pretty much agrees that a lone berserker is quite a monster, unlike any other perk.
Everyone has seen a zerker solo over 100 specimens of any combination at least once.
That's how this whole discussion came into place after all.

So it is quite puzzling how you think an explicit solo "challenge" will help to prove your point that the perk known to be most capable for solo actions is perfectly in line with other perks.
In fact, it's pretty counter-productive to that goal.

________________

As for overpoweredness, steeps said it quite well before that the reason for the berserker to be regarded that way is not due to his stats or bonuses or the fact that melee weapons use no ammunition (=P) but because he is good at taking the predictable AI for a fool.
That's an interesting way to look at this.
This has always been how the game was, no fancy AI or anything, just zombies shambling towards you (with the odd sidestepping one).

So the only effective way to specifically "nerf kiting", apart from making it completely impossible by removing any speed boni, might be to make the enemies smarter.
Gorefasts could move just out of range and circlestrafe you until they're behind you if you have a melee weapon out, husks won't come closer than a certain distance, non-raging scrakes could move backwards if a scary zerker with an ax is closing in angrily and pounds get the already mentioned rage fix pretty much everyone agreed on.

Many possibilities here that would also make the game more interesting without having to possibly ruin a perk that is fun to play as but probably also easier said than done compared to just screwing with variables which might or might not just be treating the symptoms.

And this is why I think this is complicated.

 

[RUSTIK]

I'm sorry but everyone pretty much agrees that a lone berserker is quite a monster, unlike any other perk.
Everyone has seen a zerker solo over 100 specimens of any combination at least once.
That's how this whole discussion came into place after all.

So it is quite puzzling how you think an explicit solo "challenge" will help to prove your point that the perk known to be most capable for solo actions is perfectly in line with other perks.
In fact, it's pretty counter-productive to that goal.

respectfully not everyone says that, I do not see berzerker as over powered, the issue for me lies in the specimens, if the flesh pound would rage after being hit in the head with an axe then berzerker would be a much more difficult perk to be. You just can't solo an FP online without that rage meter reset, and by fixing that issue berzerker would be on par with other perks thats all i'm saying.

my reasoning for the challenge is this, the only real goal in Killing Floor is to get past all the specimens in the map and defeat the Patriarch, ok so if it is possible with one perk and not another, that super perk is broken, yes?
But if any perk can beat the map in a solo situation than how is one perk so much better than all the others that just did the same thing. Once again fix FPs and the berzerker kiting away from them wont be an issue anymore. I think I have explained my self the best I can on this situation sorry for causing so much trouble and confusion with my "challenge".

 

[nutterbutter]

The major threats to kiting are gorefasts, husks, fleshpounds and STUFF IN FRONT OF YOU.

You are the only one who thinks that. Everyone else thinks the zerker is powerful because he can kite effectively. And kiting effectively means putting things behind the player.

 

[nutterbutter]

Nutterbutter, my good man, that would be the wrong circumstance. I think my point (although who can be sure anymore) is that each perk has it's strengths and weaknesses.

Yes and no. Each perk, save zerker, has its strengths and weaknesses. Zerker has no weaknesses.

This game has been around for awhile and the balancing has been constantly tweaked and adjusted -- the result is (in my opinion) a very well balanced game and no one perk is overpowered to the point of bad gameplay.

That's fine. Some people think the game is balanced. Some think it isn't. Personally, I think the best balancing is done in a rock/paper/scissors fashion and KF certainly isn't a rock/paper/scissors game. It is quite fun though (outside of zerker).

 

[scary ghost]

In general, this comment sums up my feelings on this thread.

Try kiting on offices or biotics lab HoE.

What now? Kite teams troll you? If your playing a public game and the teams kiting, either join them and kite or leave. No ones forcing you to kite in a game. Some people like camping, others like kiting, if you really have issues with kiting than play with people you know. The games been made so that you get a choice between camp and kite its that simple. As to chainsaw pat, some people want to play it safe, others like the the danger and adrenalin rush, play with friends if you hate it so much, [}{] is suppose to be hardcore right? Kiting isnt an assured victory either, it all depends on the map, narrow corridors are death traps for zerkers, 2 sirens there, a mob of tough guys behind you and its most likely your end. Zerkers do have weaknesses, if you choose to call him OP by pointing out his strengths and completely ignoring his weaknesses than thats hardly a valid argument. Zerking too easy for you? Play on maps that doesnt suit him well than.

Name me maps that don't "suit him well", that have "narrow corridors". Offices? Evil Santa's Lair? Hospital Horrors? Bedlam? Filth's Cross? Yup, sure stopped us from kiting those maps with a zerker team. Why don't you watch the videos of those maps from this post and tell us how "narrow corridors are death traps for zerkers". I am wondering that myself and I can't put a finger on it because we beat every one of those maps with a zerker team. Here's a word for you to help you beat maps with narrow corridors: bottleneck.

@RUSTIK
Firebugs can beat fleshpounds with pipe bombs on solo. 1 pipe bomb will severely injure, if not isnta-gib a pound on solo HoE. You should have plenty of money by wave 7 to be able to purchase pipebombs for wave 7, 9, and refill 1 for 10. Or, they can switch load outs to mac10+m32 and nuke them. Neither idea works too well in a full team though because 1 unperked pipe bomb will leave the fp with ~50% hp and trading a flamethrower for M32 sacrifices a lot of the firebug's crowd controlling ability, which is his strength.

But anyways, I will whip up a mutator after the slide show event is over.

 

[RUSTIK]

@RUSTIK
Firebugs can beat fleshpounds with pipe bombs on solo. 1 pipe bomb will severely injure, if not isnta-gib a pound on solo HoE. You should have plenty of money by wave 7 to be able to purchase pipebombs for wave 7, 9, and refill 1 for 10. Or, they can switch load outs to mac10+m32 and nuke them. Neither idea works too well in a full team though because 1 unperked pipe bomb will leave the fp with ~50% hp and trading a flamethrower for M32 sacrifices a lot of the firebug's crowd controlling ability, which is his strength.

But anyways, I will whip up a mutator after the slide show event is over.

yes, this is true alot of times dropping the mac 10 for a minute to buy and drop some pipes works but you have to lead the FP(s) into them this very risky thats how I do it, not successful often though. Standard firebug load out is nearly impossible when multiple FPs come around.

A mutator like that would be awesome!

 

[Nanobotter]

lol not this again... idiots complaining. The class you're using isn't UP just because you always die and QQ. All classes are OP in their own way.

 

[nutterbutter]

All classes are OP in their own way.

That statement really makes zero sense.

 

[Undedd Jester]

lol not this again... idiots complaining. The class you're using isn't UP just because you always die and QQ. All classes are OP in their own way.

On the contrary, we don't die with said class, even when we royally cock up because its overpowered, our favourite game becomes boring so we stop playing and start playing crap like TF2 or COD. THAT is when we QQ.

 

[Deafmute]

All classes are OP in their own way.

No they're not. What does this even mean.

 

[TheBoobyTrap]

But that's wrong.
You can do it just fine with Sharpshooter.

What lets Berserkers solo kite is the fact that they can reliably take on any Zed and eliminate it quickly. The movespeed, clot/bloat immunity and damage resistance just make it easier. The major threats to kiting are gorefasts, husks, fleshpounds and STUFF IN FRONT OF YOU. Being able to stun and sidestep backtracking scrakes or quickly eliminating forward spawn sirens is the key, not outpacing the mob of clots sitting in your tail.

Incidentally, this is why medics CAN'T solo 6 man HoE, because they have no good way to kill 6xhp Scrakes. Not being able to oneshot husks and sirens hurts them pretty badly as well.

Ummm what? did you just say that the gorefast is a weakness? Where you can easily slice it before he can get you and you can make him fall backwards if you miss the head? The gorefast is definately not a weakness, and every weakness of the beserker you mention is not a weakness of the perk, but the strategy. You said medics can solo scrakes? well they can, medics can easily just LAR husks/sirens.

 

[scary ghost]

On the contrary, we don't die with said class, even when we royally cock up because its overpowered, our favourite game becomes boring so we stop playing and start playing crap like TF2 or COD. THAT is when we QQ.

You just need to team stack better, like so:

http://i26.tinypic.com/5o5uft.jpghttp://i26.tinypic.com/5o5uft.jpg

Only then can you truly enjoy TF2.

 

[FSUBoo]

That statement really makes zero sense.

Not really, as all perks can be considered OP IN THE RIGHT PLAYERS HANDS. I've been saying this for a while now, mainly in the support specialist balance thread. It all comes down to the skill of the player in front of the screen with the mouse and keyboard or joystick in their hands.

 

[TheBoobyTrap]

Not really, as all perks can be considered OP IN THE RIGHT PLAYERS HANDS. I've been saying this for a while now, mainly in the support specialist balance thread. It all comes down to the skill of the player in front of the screen with the mouse and keyboard or joystick in their hands.

When 90%+ is the right hands for a perk i think it needs balancing...

 

[sph34r]

On the contrary, we don't die with said class, even when we royally cock up because its overpowered, our favourite game becomes boring so we stop playing and start playing crap like TF2 or COD. THAT is when we QQ.

Let me just clarify here for a bit. COD is garbage, and TF2 is not.

Good day.

 

[Deafmute]

Not really, as all perks can be considered OP IN THE RIGHT PLAYERS HANDS. I've been saying this for a while now, mainly in the support specialist balance thread. It all comes down to the skill of the player in front of the screen with the mouse and keyboard or joystick in their hands.

Explain to me how Commando or Firebug could be possibly considered overpowered.