...that I think many of the hardcore community will enjoy...

[Escadin]

Lol

??
Is that your way of saying you wanna go far off-topic? Fine...


For starters, they could make managing damage over time vs direct damage (based on immediate threat) a thing again. Not the hardest skill to learn but better than nothing.

Then they could add more (slow moving) projectile based weapons that reward good head leading skills. At that point, FB would be back to it's old form at least.

Next step would be to make something meaningful out of groundfire and the skills that (alledgedly) affect it. The biggest skill requirement in using flame throwers could be based on how to maximize your damage using dots and groundfire properly (as opposed to letting impact dmg do the job and everything else is just tagged on but makes no difference whatsoever).

In order for that to function properly fire incap would need to be changed so:

1. It doesn't just instantly trigger on trash
2. Incapped AI doesn't steer zeds straight forward but in different directions, which could be potentially controled by the player's positioning (should have been heat wave imo)

This would also open up a way for herding tactics in order to support other AoE based perks like demo or perks with high penetration power. (+ teamplay skill ceiling)


Finally, they would need to change the tapping mechanic so that this insane recoil the MWG has means something. Assuming splash damage has been replaced by now, there is a wide range of mechanics that make using this weapon more challenging.
Damage scales with uninterrupted time fired, players have to track metal parts (for whatever reason this has become gamelogic but Idc) such as the flailing scrake's chainsaw arm or a way for other weapons and the alt fire to combo with microwave incap - just to name a few.


Oh yea and RNG on shrapnel needs to go away. Make it a bonus when you manage to hit 4+ zeds with one groundfire flame or whatever other possible solutions. Just not RNG.

 

[Gladius]

For starters, they could make managing damage over time vs direct damage (based on immediate threat) a thing again.

Why not playing mando then?

Then they could add more (slow moving) projectile based weapons that reward good head leading skills. At that point, FB would be back to it's old form at least.

It's just that players that have

 

[Escadin]

Why not playing mando then?

That doesn't make sense.

It's just that players that have

 

[q3.railgun]

The skill ceiling for the Firebug in 2 was pretty low to begin with but that's why so many people enjoyed playing it.

In a game with mixed head/body hp perks:
|-------------|-|
^99.9% of players were here.
^.01% of players were here.
The only difference that I ever saw is that the .01% of players knew how to utilize stumble, Fire incaps and knew how not to mess up other people's aim.

In a game of full body hp perks :

|
^ All players were here.
There were no difference between brand new and oldies in this match setup. A brand new player would perform just as well as a player that knew the mechanics because there were no concerns about messing up other people's aim.

The Flames and Microwave have properties of ground fire and stacking DoT/Stumbling but really if you think about it all that meant was shoot the ground and not directly at the zed. As soon as any player new or old knew that, you've unfortunately hit Firebug's skill ceiling in terms of maximizing damage. Trying not to interfere with headshot perks isn't a skill of the firebug but a player skill.

What they're good at is setting things on fire and causing widespread panic, whether that's good for the team is an entirely different question IMO. I forcefully increased the skill ceiling on Firebug when I played by running Dual DE/DBS/LAR/HM101. It's a relaxing perk to play because of the fact that the skill ceiling was never meant to be very high.

 

[Gladius]

It's a relaxing perk to play because of the fact that the skill ceiling was never meant to be very high.

The lowest skill ceilling shouldn't be dominant and that's why firebug is now well balanced imo. Before 1035 on outpost, classic situation in pub games was that ballistic perks are holding at the usual spot. Then a firebug/zerk joins and just camps the door, bypassing everyone. Now with the recent nerfs that has changed and that makes pub games a better experience imo. No perk should be able to bypass his teammates that way.

 

[Escadin]

It's a relaxing perk to play because of the fact that the skill ceiling was never meant to be very high.

Is that a fact indeed? A throw-away perk to be ditched by everyone after they realize there is no sense of progression to it beyond reaching max level? Only to occasionally pop into difficulties they can't handle and annoy everyone because they wanna see pretty fireworks for a wave or two?

The game could have done with 9 perks total if that's true.

 

[Gladius]

That damage over time concept doesn't make much sense with running zeds to begin with. That's why there is shrapnell and that shouldn't be so overpowered that the firebug can hold itself at the frontline.

 

[ScrakeMorgendorffer]

As it stood pre-v1035, Firebugs couldn't meaningfully contribute to a big zed kill without messing up the precise aim of other perks - when it came to headshots.

If they are to make Firebug synergise re: big zed kills, they need to find a way to make a fire-related incapacitation enable an easier to land a headshot, not harder to.

If they are to make Firebug able to solo big zeds, they need to find a way to make the possibility of doing that be reliant on chaining incaps, notably through timing incap animations and the Firebug being able to cause more than what he could before in terms of incaps: previously it was either fire panic/stumble or microwave panic/stumble.

The latter had drastically longer cooldowns than the former, and neither of them could be chained for any kind of meaningful result.

As it stands, Firebug is neither fun, strong or useful to a team that's accuracy-dependent.

 

[dkanus]

The game could have done with 9 perks total if that's true.

Going to have to agree with that.
"It's just an easy noob perk" is just a cop-out.
How to make it more skill-based is a difficult question and I don't have any idea that would work for sure. But it can't be impossible.

First of all, currently only half of firebug's weapons has no business aiming:
Caulk N Burn and Flamethrower.
1. Caulk N Burn, being starting weapon, doesn't have to be overly strong and useful and can be just left alone.
2. Flamethrower can become a safer analog of demo's explosions for trash-cleaning. Make it deal significant damage in exchange for smaller tanks (let one last 4 seconds tops) and much less overall ammo. This would limit flamethrower to occasional (rare) short bursts, force players to rely on something else as a main weapon and still preserve it as a 'relaxing' way to clear a horde.

3. Incendiary Trench Gun has headshots.
4. I don't know much about how Microwave Gun works right now, but it has sights, so I see no reason why it can't, in theory, reward properly aimed shots in some way.
-----------------
For example:
IIRC it shoots a continuous beam while you hold a fire button. So, to make it slightly different from other weapons, it can start dealing heavy damage after you 'roast' some weak spot for 2-3 seconds without interruption. And pointing at any other point even for a moment would reset that time counter.
Holding your aim can be harder than just point-n-clicking and goes well with MW gun's short range. Against scrakes and fleshpounds that would require to learn their animations and practice following their movements once they start attacking you.
-----------------

With that, half of firebug's weapons would require aiming and half would be situational due to either weakness or limited ammo. In future, like was already suggested, adding weapons that launch slower projectiles can allow to keep firebug more skill-based while keeping it unique.

P.S. I don't at all insist on the changes I proposed. They're just an example I came up with on-the-fly to show that firebug doesn't have to be purely spammy.

 

[q3.railgun]

Is that a fact indeed? A throw-away perk to be ditched by everyone after they realize there is no sense of progression to it beyond reaching max level? Only to occasionally pop into difficulties they can't handle and annoy everyone because they wanna see pretty fireworks for a wave or two?

The game could have done with 9 perks total if that's true.

Well it's unfortunately sort of true right?... If the perk actually had more depth than shooting the floor for better DPS, people would actually see the importance of using fire incap to create better combos. Like I stated in my previous post, I've only seen one player in my entirety of when FB was introduced until I quit that took time to find FB combos and actually created a methodical safe way to kill SC while permanently keeping it locked down.

The maximum effectiveness of FB's DPS can be achieved by new and old players alike by shooting the floor. This simple concept is why I'm saying that the skill ceiling is low. I'm not saying that the perk was awful in it's effectiveness, but what I'm saying is that the perk itself didn't have much going for it. This didn't prevent it from being a "throwaway" perk as you put it because people eventually learned to respect the headshot perks and went solely for clearing trash without trying to interrupt. The problem was that when you looked at how each FB played, they played the same exact way.

I don't know how you feel about the FB but with these in mind that's why we're saying that the ceiling looks very low. When you see a COM/GS, you can really see right off the bat the difference between a new and experienced player not just because of headshots but also because each shot was only able to target one whereas FB had AoE.

In the terms of an MMO, it's like the difference between a Monk that uses less effective low cooldown AoE Heals and self regen passives vs a Monk that uses more potent single target, long cooldown spells. Considering my MMO background I'd go with the spammable AoE spells since it's obviously easier.

 

[Gladius]

First of all, currently only half of firebug's weapons has no business aiming:

[...]

3. Incendiary Trench Gun has headshots.
4. I don't know much about how Microwave Gun works right now, but it has sights, so I see no reason why it can't, in theory, reward properly aimed shots in some way.

Microwave gun actually deals more damage when you shoot it somewhere at the ground instead of "aiming" it on the targets body. So much about aiming. Lasttime I tested it dealt damage to a scrake that was only partially visible on the edge of my screen. So much about aiming...

Trench gun... needs as much aim as a shotgun does.

Actually C&B and flamethrower deal head damage too, at point blank hits.

 

[Ryno5660]

Can I just say railgun is right, that there's a low skill ceiling there, and currently that's because it's tied to lack of aiming required in a headshot-based system.

This should stay. There are other ways to increase the skill ceiling - lowering ammo and taking it away as a primary weapon is a terrible idea. "Perk isn't frontline and shouldn't be" makes no sense at all, his entire perk identity is tied to a close quarters heavy weapon which screams destruction, making it weak is akin to removing the perk.

Other ways to raise the skill ceiling. DoTs can work but you need some imagination, it doesn't have to be 10 second durations. You can make it do more damage and apply multiple/stackig effects which ruin someone's day within 5 seconds still, with maybe a skill to double duration after all that (but you're right duration isn't all that great). Skill ceiling here would be the same as a debuff-DPS supporting class, dependin on what afflictions you can put on them.

I think it should have 2 trees - one makes any enemy on fire suffer badly in various supportive ways, the other is damage (both direct and afterburn). Full left tree loses damage but is a boon to teams (how much of a boon is up to TW's decisions) whereas the right tree has a mix of powerful *frontline* damage and punishing afterburn damage, with full damage potential incorporating the 5 second DoT time.

There could be potential to mix both trees as well, for a mix of afterburn damage and afflictions or a mix of direct damage and incaps, etc.

One thing I know for certain is that while it has a lower skill ceiling it should not produce lower results directly because of this, that's exactly how you reignite the stigma aginst firebugs as well as make it less fun to play. You have trouble headshotting stuff through the flames, you get annoyed a my choice of perk as if I'm chewing loudly or something? That needs to be addressed by the perk's rework and more specialty/strength through perk passives and skills.

I don't know exactly how that perk rework would look, all I have are my opinions and ideas, but one thing I know for sure is sticking it in the "weakzone" and burying it out of sight of your headshotting doesn't solve the problem. It makes people hate having them on their team even more and just tries to hide it away- It needs a proper damage option with afterburn/direct damage (to be less annoying when they do target big guys, they can actually help if they never learned instead of causing team wipes) and lots of good things to happen when enemies are actually on fire besides damage (lots of potential here for all kinds of things, increased panic power/duration/vulnerable while panicked, slowed to a crawl while panicked, increased chance of stumble per DoT tick) if you just use some imagination!

Either way, further weakening would be a bad idea and the perk rework should hopefully fix a lot of the flak it has coming its' way.

 

[Gladius]

"Perk isn't frontline and shouldn't be" makes no sense at all

If you wouldn't pull that statement out of context, it could make more sense to you. If the perk with the lowest skill ceilling is that powerful that a player can just bypass every teammember by going in front of them and fire hosing a door at close quarters, it results in gameplay disturbance. Making it less powerful so he doesn't have the ammo to constantly spam the whole wave long and has to rely on his teammates does make sense.

 

[neddie]

I play HoE for the most part, and you may have noticed my numerous posts - particularly bug reports - during the preview. I probably played about sixty hours of the preview, but I realized that many of the people I play with were done with KF2 following the update, and I stopped playing entirely.

I was extremely frustrated with weapon resistances. I liked incaps though they needed some refinement, particularly around bash. I found the reduction of the berserker led to an unreasonable elevation of sharpshooter, but we must expect a new perk to slot in above existing ones prior to play feedback.

The problem, for me, was less about the systems and more about the impact the systems had on my segment of the hardcore community. Nearly half of my regular friends slowed or stopped playing. Of the thirty recognizable people I played with, only three liked the preview, and none of those generally play HoE. This said, I don't think Yoshiro was referring to the "hardcore" players as we understand them, but rather the core Hard players, who make up the majority. It feels like each update has been predicated on the feedback of Normal and Hard players, and has catered to Normal and Hard players.