Tactics Tank Gunnery / Ranges question
- Thread starter Recce
- Start date
The correct/realistic way...
The correct/realistic way...
I find the discussion on how to use the gunsights correctly quite interresting. Personally I always try to work out the range to the target, and then adjust the sight to the correct range. It works quite fine for me. And, I believe this is "by the book" and the most "realistic" approach to gunnery.
The thing is that as far as I know, Michael Wittman (gratest panzer ace ever) did things the "wrong" way. First of all he used his Tiger's neutral steering to help lay the gun faster on targets, this because he used to command assault guns before transferring to panzers. A practice that is absolute murder on the tracks and gearbox. I guess old habits die hard.
Secondly, his usual gunner, Bobby Woll, always set his optics to 800meters in the Tiger and then just used his great experience to compensate for range. And Wittmanns crew is widely regarded as the most effective crew of all time...
Any comments from the "realism is everything"-guys?
The correct/realistic way...
I find the discussion on how to use the gunsights correctly quite interresting. Personally I always try to work out the range to the target, and then adjust the sight to the correct range. It works quite fine for me. And, I believe this is "by the book" and the most "realistic" approach to gunnery.
The thing is that as far as I know, Michael Wittman (gratest panzer ace ever) did things the "wrong" way. First of all he used his Tiger's neutral steering to help lay the gun faster on targets, this because he used to command assault guns before transferring to panzers. A practice that is absolute murder on the tracks and gearbox. I guess old habits die hard.
Secondly, his usual gunner, Bobby Woll, always set his optics to 800meters in the Tiger and then just used his great experience to compensate for range. And Wittmanns crew is widely regarded as the most effective crew of all time...
Any comments from the "realism is everything"-guys?
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Find what works for you and go for it.
For all tanks, including the Tiger, I will lay my main gun over one of the fenders as I advance. When we make contact, my driver will turn the tank to point that fender towards the contact doing two different things; lay the gun for me quickly (especially with the Tiger) and angle our armor.
For battlesight ranges 500 meters or less, I leave the gun range set at 0 and use bursts from my coax to lay the main gun aiming point on target. When I see the rounds bounce off, I fire the main gun. This works well fighting on the move from an open hatch position at pointblank ranges, too.
For long ranges, I use the "lean left/lean right" keys to set ranges over 500 meters based on target size across the gunsight reticles. If I go over or under I adjust the range. If I do miss the first round, I almost always have their range correctly by round 2 and then it's on.
For all tanks, including the Tiger, I will lay my main gun over one of the fenders as I advance. When we make contact, my driver will turn the tank to point that fender towards the contact doing two different things; lay the gun for me quickly (especially with the Tiger) and angle our armor.
For battlesight ranges 500 meters or less, I leave the gun range set at 0 and use bursts from my coax to lay the main gun aiming point on target. When I see the rounds bounce off, I fire the main gun. This works well fighting on the move from an open hatch position at pointblank ranges, too.
For long ranges, I use the "lean left/lean right" keys to set ranges over 500 meters based on target size across the gunsight reticles. If I go over or under I adjust the range. If I do miss the first round, I almost always have their range correctly by round 2 and then it's on.
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Jagdtiger
Jagdtiger
TothAmon,
Interesting...I just started using that tactic last night (fighting the Tiger as one would a StuG). Definitely makes up for the poor turret slew rate.
Jagdtiger
TothAmon,
Interesting...I just started using that tactic last night (fighting the Tiger as one would a StuG). Definitely makes up for the poor turret slew rate.
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Well, what I was trying to say wasn't exactly how to use the Tiger in the most efficient way, it was more of a poke in the ribs to the guys that wants to do everything as "realistically" and "by the book" as possible. I'm not saying that I don't understand or respect what they are trying to achieve, after all, we all enjoy the game in our own ways. It is, after all, more fun when people cooperate and fight together.
Its just that the germans hardly ever did things "by the book". They had good training and tactics and then made up the rest as they went along, trusting each man to use personal initiative to solve tactical problems and use their weapons to maximum effect. And that made men like Wittmann.
Its just that the germans hardly ever did things "by the book". They had good training and tactics and then made up the rest as they went along, trusting each man to use personal initiative to solve tactical problems and use their weapons to maximum effect. And that made men like Wittmann.
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I'd be willing to bet a sizable hunk of coin that the much ballyhoo'd doctrinal tactic of angling the Tiger's armor was a technique developed in the field by panzer crews that, from personal experience, figured out it gave their flat surface armor an improved chance of deflecting armor piercing rounds coming at them.
They simply reported what they were doing and the German army training gurus took it and ran with it as doctrine to teach everyone else coming into the Panzerwaffe. Same thing for revving up the Tiger's engine to help the gunner traverse the turret faster, or turning the vehicle itself to get the main gun lay closer to the target versus traversing all the way.
Most training doctrine in any military is developed the same way. Some bright guy figured something out, told his Sergeant, he told his Commander, and right up the chain it went. Cullin Hedgerow Cutter sound familiar to anyone?
They simply reported what they were doing and the German army training gurus took it and ran with it as doctrine to teach everyone else coming into the Panzerwaffe. Same thing for revving up the Tiger's engine to help the gunner traverse the turret faster, or turning the vehicle itself to get the main gun lay closer to the target versus traversing all the way.
Most training doctrine in any military is developed the same way. Some bright guy figured something out, told his Sergeant, he told his Commander, and right up the chain it went. Cullin Hedgerow Cutter sound familiar to anyone?
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If your eyes are good at judging real life distance, you have an advantedge, even though the game's distance/scale is not accurate. I can easily hit targets at 1200m+ though thats only what my sight says. I find it faster to use the gunsight settings for distance. I can tell by the size of the tank wheather that russian death box is at 700m or 600m and i always get the first hit when using the range setting on the gun sights.
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Negative, sir.
Negative, sir.
At a fixed distance X, gravity assists the shell on its way to a target that has a negative Y relative to the horizontal. Gravity hampers the shell as it must travel upward towards a positive Y relative to the horizontal.
Therefore, a shell fired at 800m setting at a +30 degree slope will go less than 800m, and the same shell fired at a -30 degree slope will go farther than 800m.
Those of you still in high school or university, please correct me if my logic is flawed.
Negative, sir.
At a fixed distance X, gravity assists the shell on its way to a target that has a negative Y relative to the horizontal. Gravity hampers the shell as it must travel upward towards a positive Y relative to the horizontal.
Therefore, a shell fired at 800m setting at a +30 degree slope will go less than 800m, and the same shell fired at a -30 degree slope will go farther than 800m.
Those of you still in high school or university, please correct me if my logic is flawed.
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Well, I honestly find it simpler to fire without using the range settings, I just leave it at 0. I seem to have a relatively good hit rate, I wouldn't say I hit 95% of the time with my 1st shot, but I hit a good deal of the time, and if not, I just either raise or lower the gun as appropriate.
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R1G4M0RT1Z said:
I used to and was almost always missing on my first shot. Once I learned to set the range I started getting a lot more first shot hits. Now that the tank penetration has been improved, I'm getting more 1 shot kills.
I forget the map name (has a house on the hill and then you take the vilalge), but I'm loving that PIII with APCR. I was taking out lots of russians with a single shot.
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I really do believe on dialing in the range.
On the bigger maps at least (ie none of the offical maps), as other people have said, I'll pre-set the range. Depending on the situation, I'll either snap off the first round without changing from the default, or adjust before firing. Then adjust, if required, for the second shot.
If you have the correct distance to the target, rather than just hit him, you have a chance to hit him where you want. And I mean exactly where you want to hit him. Such as the drivers hatch, or that "magic" line at the bottom of the glacis on the front of all Russian tanks (except for the JS-2). Or if only a small part is exposed.
If you have a driver, who is moving you in and out of dead ground, then I think aiming is quicker with the range dial in.
At ranges over 700m, you should be getting a first or second time hit for just about every target. On the few times you miss with the second shot, he should be covered in dirt and have a ringing in his ears.
And if you want to know what the enemy really looks like at 750m, try Mormegil's "Quickie Tank Range". I know on that his Range I can kill the KV-1s and T-34/76 with a single shot each, from the Pz III at 750m with the range dialed in. I doubt I could do it with with the range set to 0.
On the bigger maps at least (ie none of the offical maps), as other people have said, I'll pre-set the range. Depending on the situation, I'll either snap off the first round without changing from the default, or adjust before firing. Then adjust, if required, for the second shot.
If you have the correct distance to the target, rather than just hit him, you have a chance to hit him where you want. And I mean exactly where you want to hit him. Such as the drivers hatch, or that "magic" line at the bottom of the glacis on the front of all Russian tanks (except for the JS-2). Or if only a small part is exposed.
If you have a driver, who is moving you in and out of dead ground, then I think aiming is quicker with the range dial in.
At ranges over 700m, you should be getting a first or second time hit for just about every target. On the few times you miss with the second shot, he should be covered in dirt and have a ringing in his ears.
And if you want to know what the enemy really looks like at 750m, try Mormegil's "Quickie Tank Range". I know on that his Range I can kill the KV-1s and T-34/76 with a single shot each, from the Pz III at 750m with the range dialed in. I doubt I could do it with with the range set to 0.
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MAXX said:
Here you go.
http://www.redorchestragame.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9344
You should have a Map folder under your RO:OST folder; just pop the .ROM file in there. Then run your machine as a Listen Server.
If you are connected to the ISP when you do this, other people can join the map you're running. I was suprised when my "targets" started firing back at me!!!!
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I am just learning my armour gunnery in RO. I am using the set range method. The advantges I see to this are, one, you can be in a turret down situation see your target through binoculars and get the range, set range on gun, move to turret up, aim, fire. My estimation of ranging needs work but if you can get the right range it is a first shot hit everytime. Two, as someone already mentioned if your range is dialed in, you can pop out of cover fire, hide, repeat and hit every time.
I have a question about ranging in a T-34, is it just me or is the T-34 range system wacked. It seems to me that anything under 500m and the sights should be set to 0, and then incremental from there, so if want to hit something at say 700m you would just set the sight to 200m. I had been playing as axis for awile then found myself on the russian side(in a T-34), I was setting my sights the same as I would have in a panzer4 and the shots were going way over the target.
I have a question about ranging in a T-34, is it just me or is the T-34 range system wacked. It seems to me that anything under 500m and the sights should be set to 0, and then incremental from there, so if want to hit something at say 700m you would just set the sight to 200m. I had been playing as axis for awile then found myself on the russian side(in a T-34), I was setting my sights the same as I would have in a panzer4 and the shots were going way over the target.
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Recce said:
I am pretty sure it is the 76 and yes I know that I have to readjust the gun. It just seems to me that if you adjust the sights, aim on target with a 76 the rounds go long. Seems to me that anything under 500m if you set the sight at 0m the round will hit dead center, inside of that you have to actually aim below the tank or the round goes high. Guess I'll have to do some practice, with german armour I hit very well and when I end up in a russian tank I just cant seem to hit with any acuracy. Althought that would be true to life, as the russians had poor optics.
EDIT was practicing with Russian armour. It seems to me that all the tanks that do not have self adjusting range sights suffer from this, the Russian tanks with the newer sights seem to work, though the ranges are off.
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