Survivalist Rework Idea (replacing Oddly-specific perks and small consistency changes)

[Demon Swords]

Thesis / Overall problem​

A Survivalist's role in the game is to be the jack of all trades by allowing all weapon use at the expense of a lot of damage and to have skills that give utility and survivability. The problem with the perk though is that it has oddly specific skills that limit choices. Another problem is that with each patch, more weapons are made for the other perks, which sometimes fills a different problem that the other weapons of that perk have. With more weapon choices within the bracket of each perk, there is less use to be able to dabble into other perk’s weapons.

My hopes of this rework isn’t to do a major buff to Survivalist (though the changes are 100% a buff except killing the melee build), but rather to open up more playstyle options by replacing oddly specific skills with ones that have a variety of uses.

Link to Currant Survivalist: https://wiki.killingfloor2.com/index.php?title=Survivalist

Problem By skill set​

Tier 1 - Tactical Reload & Heavy Weapons Training

The problem with this tier is that it is very awkward. Dividing the reload bonus into two different skills that have three perks each is quite problematic. First given that the starting weapon is random you have to guess which half to pick for your weapon. Secondly, the point of the perk is to give the ability to use weapons of multiple perks but the very first skill you get incentivises you into one of two tracks. Thirdly, neither perk includes firebug, Field Medic, Berserker, or the survivalists own weapons. Since a large portion of the fire, field, or berserkers weapons that reload are cross-perk weapons it is unlikely the developers would add them to either side.
Also neither perk would help if started with a shovel.

Tier 2 - Medical Training and Malee Expert

Malee Expert - The problem with this skill is that it is almost useless unless you buy a melee weapon. The Malee Expert perk gives you a lot of useful stuff if holding a melee weapon but is only better then the Berserker when both are lv 10-14. This makes the skill very specialized and thus there is almost no reason to grab unless malee.
Difference summary of bez and survivalist at 10-14 (assuming bez goes skirmisher and butcher): Survivalist deals 26-24.4% more melee damage, +5% more move speed when not sprinting, 4-8% more damage reduction, and 10-14% max armor. Berserker gets 2 hp regen per second and cannot be grabbed by clots.

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The Rework Changes​

Basic:

• Your starting weapon cannot be the shoval.
• Change starting Grenade to the Medic Grenade.

Note: It never made sense to me why the survivalist could start with one grenade then guarantee to lose it at lv 15+. As the healing grenade is generally better than survivalists normal starting grenade and the Molotov, I decided to make it his grenade at all times.


Tier 1 - Weapon Handling

Tactical Reload: Increase weapon reload speed.

High Capacity Magazines: Increase Mag size of all weapons by 50%.

Note: Combined the reload speed to one skill to allow for more choices. Went with Mag size for alternate skill because I couldn’t think of anything else that would be close in strength to reload speed.

Tier 2 - Special Training

Medical Training - Increase the potency of all your healing 30%, decrease the cooldown of your syringe and healing darts 50%. (same as before.)

Military training - Increase damage with your 9mm pistol by 70%, Increase move speed by 10%. Increase melee bash damage of all guns by 25%.

Note: Replaced Melee Expert because needing to buy an extra weapon to be a weaker berserker was bad for the weight capacity of Survivalist and delayed gun variety that the survival needs. Also Melee weapons were only affected by melee expert and zed-plosion so it doesn't make sense to have a skill around it for Survivalist.

Military Training is a variant of the idea of Fallback because the survivalist could use a second weapon that is consistent to use in the earlier waves. The 9mm has 70% instead of the 85% of Fallback as the base 0.6 per level damage boost affects the 9mm (as well as all the survivalist skills.) I made the damage boost to knife part into applying to gun bashes so you don’t have to switch weapons (or for Melee Expert buy a melee weapon) to deal with close targets. I choose a speed boost for the third part of fallback variant, to give more kite-ability to counter the lowered tankiness that not having stronger self-heals of Medical Training. (also because it is weird that the “Utility” Survivalist can be slower then the “high damage” Sharpshooter and Gunslinger.)

Tier 3 - Equipment

Ammo Vest - Carry up to 15% more ammo for all weapons. (same without grenade changes.)

Weapon Harness - Increase Carrying Capacity by 5. (same without grenade changes.)

Note: Kept same without grenade weirdness because I am not trying to mega buff the Survivalist, but instead open more build options and early wave impact to make the Survivalist viable.

Tier 4 - Zoning

Spontaneous Zed-plosion - Zeds you kill have a 30% chance to explode, damaging and stunning nearby Zeds. (same as before.)

Lockdown - Increase the power of all incapacitation methods by 50% for all weapons. increased damage against incapacated zeds by 10%.

Note: Make Things go Boom (second tier 4 skill) is only usable with demo weapons which is something I wanted to fix for the survivalist. Also that skill may not even be better then zed-plosion for demo weapons so It needed to be replaced.

Lockdown was my replacement idea as it makes for a more consistent form of Zed-plosion.
Zed-plosion: chance for damage + cc on kill.
Lockdown: increases your weapon CC ability then increases your damage on them after.

Tier 5 - Specialist Training

Madman - During Zed time, all your weapons shoot 3x faster. (same as before)

Escape Artist - During Zed time, you cannot be grabbed from clots or immobilized by E.D.A.R lassers (removing the effect of it upon zed time), and you move and switch weapons in real-time.

Note: With the idea of better CCing of lockdown being moved to tier 4 I decided to replace the tier 5 with a movement skill.

Weapon Notes​

Survivalist weapons may need a slight nerf if this rework was followed. Previously almost none of the survivalist weapons were affected by his skills (only Ammo vest, Madman, lockdown, and Zed-plosion.) But these changes would allow them to be affected by reload speed boost or Mag size increase. The survivalist weapons were never strong to begin with ,so maybe it would be fine, but it is something to consider.

 

[Humam2104]

Military training - Increase damage with your 9mm pistol by 70%, Increase move speed by 10%. Increase melee bash damage of all guns by 25%.

I believe melee expert did alot more than this. was even more useful.

Tactical Reload: Increase weapon reload speed.

High Capacity Magazines: Increase Mag size of all weapons by 50%.

Players actually need both, Firebug, Commando, and SWAT have all these together (30 or 40 bullets magazine is not enough)
Also, you didn't mention any recoil reduction for Commando's weapons.

generally better than survivalists normal starting grenade and the Molotov, I decided to make it his grenade at all times.

I never use the medic grenade (unless I want the extra ammo), so I'm not really into the changes.

During Zed time, you cannot be grabbed from clots or immobilized by E.D.A.R lassers

If there's zed time and I'm grabbed. all zeds are slowed down so I can shoot them or bash my way through so it's not really an issue.

increased damage against incapacitated zeds by 10%.

Why would anyone need extra damage to an incapacitated zed? it's going to move a few steps and die!

After reading your rework, I truly believe you have even nerfed the Survivalist even more. You didn't talk about the extra damage (10%) the survivalist needs. Also, you didn't mention anything about shotgun penetration that it needs. Maybe you're one of the people that think the survivalist is OP and needs a nerf?

 

[Aze]

This looks quite nice!

* I understand removing Melee Expert, as it is indeed another pidgeonhole talent. I also feel melee could become more indirectly viable with a Berserker rework (A lot of Berserker's power comes from his talents, especially Smash. If more of melee weapons' damage was shifted over to the weapons themselves, and less from the Berserker talents, this would help out Survivalist and other melee crossperking (like Pulverizer) tremendously).
That said, I feel one thing should remain in the Survivalist's talents: Melee attack speed bonus. Without that anywhere in the tree, melee has kinda become the least viable weaponchoice for Survivalist, making it another indirect pidgeholing. Make melee attack speed a bonus on both sides on the same tier, and that'd be great. If you put that in Tier 1, the Crovel would become more viable as a starting weapon too.
EDIT: Also, if Berserker doesn't get that revamp, you'd have to add some extra melee damage to the perk at base (like the passive damage bonus has increased effect on melee weapons, or something)

* While I would prefer for the Survivalist to choose what grenade you wanna use (from level 0), if that's not possible to change, your idea with having Medic grenades be the only grenade for Survivalist, makes by far the most sense.

* With how Tier 1 is suggested, Tactical Reloa is the best choice, as it affects every reloadable weapon. So, to make tier 1 more fair, you could change HCM to this instead:
Tactical Magazines: Increase mag size of all eligible weapons by 50%. If the weapon is not eligible for the mag size boost, it gets elite reloads instead.

That way, both choices on Tier 1 is fully fair.

* Military Training is quite nice, it could work. Not a huge fan of it (prefer Melee Expert's bonuses, honestly), but it could work

* Tier 3 is quite nice, but I feel they could have something extra on them, something which doesn't rely on dosh. Just as a suggestion:
Combat Vest: Carry up to 15% more ammo for all weapons, and increase your damage resistance by 5%.
Weapon Harness: Increase Carrying Capacity by 5, and increase your weapon switch speed by 25%.

* Tier 4 is nice too. SZ is great, but unreliable, while Lockdown is in need of more agency, but has more control. I generally don't like damage-boosts on the Survivalist's talents, but the condition you added for Lockdown is excellent, and reasonably numbered. It also caters to two different playstyles: SZ is more about killing trash and getting damage+CC out of that, while Lockdown is more about focusing down heavy targets. Lockdown is generally favourable on bossfights, but both are viable (since bosses generally spawn a lot of trash). I like this, good job!

* Escape Artist looks a bit weak, to be honest. I'd maybe make it more like SWAT's Battering Ram (named Unstoppable?), so it has some offensive use too.

Overall though, one of the better Survivalist reworks I've seen proposed.
And honestly, I really don't think Survivalist would need nerfs with this rework. Consider this: Since the tree would be generally fair throughout, if you pick Tactical Reload, Medic Training, Ammo Vest, SZ and Madman, the only thing gained from this rework was elite reloads on all weapons. Thus, I think it's safe to leave his weapons as they are.

 

[Demon Swords]

Comments responses:
My overall goal of the rework was to replace problem skills that are too specific with more general options while also doing some consistency changes. As such I did not include some buffs that may be needed (like recoil reduction or more damage from base.) as I don’t want to accidentally overbuff him at the same time as replacing skills (tripwire can always buff him more after the rework.)
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Response to specifically Humam2104
(I don’t think the survivalist is OP. I am just of the mindset that it is better to do small incremental buffs then rush out a large buff that may make him better at using some guns than their own perk does.)

Melee expert was more “useful” for if you used a melee weapon however that requires you to buy a good melee weapon which takes weight and money away from having a 2-3 gun build. (though a Melee expert makes a better knife then fallback.) Though Medical training is very good, it is a bad design, that unless you want a melee weapon then you're forced into using Medical Training.

Though some weapons do “need” certain buffs that their perk has to be viable (like penetration for support, recoil reduction for commando, or mag size for swat weapons.), there are 9 classes of weapons to choose from with many of them not needing those specific changes to work. If the survivalist had a buff to counter the innate weakness of every perk weapon while also having similar damage then there would never be a reason to use the perks for those weapons.
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Response to specifically Aze
Military Training
I was kind of trying to kill the idea of the survivalist using Melee weapons because it is kind of dumb. Needing to switch to a melee weapon to get any benefits was bad and unless you are trying to save ammo then it is almost better to just point blank shoot the enemy (unless you are using explosives guns.) Having each of your guns being able to melee bash better seems more logical, so you can save money and weight from needing to buy a melee weapon while saving time from needing to switch weapons. The bash damage boost could be changed to all melee hits and also give attack speed if necessary, but that might make it much better than Medical Training. Also, barely any of the other skills affect melee weapons (zed-plosion, Currant Lockdown, indirectly of what grenade you have), so to me It makes more sense to let Guns (weapons going to get stronger with each tier.) to just have better melee and move speed.
Note: I do main Berserker and like to be reckless as it so I may be biased towards it.

Tactical Magazines:
I considered the increased reload speed if the mag size isn’t increased, but I decided not to include it since no other version of the tradeoff has the mag size be able to increase reload speed.

Tier 3:
I didn’t want to straight up buff the survivalist at the same time as reworking a lot of perks, so though these skills are underwhelming, I kept them the same. Also other perks also have some tiers that are underwhelming, so though buffing the tier may make sense, it doesn’t need to happen. For your suggestion of weapon switch speed, it isn’t necessary as they put on the beta base 35% at all levels. Could go for some recoil reduction instead by like 15% or something.

Escape artist is weak::
Note: I usually prestige any perk that hits 25, so I don’t have much experience on the balance of Zed time skills.
I don’t know how impactful 3X weapon shoot speed is but in the base 3 seconds of it being active you probably wouldn’t get much impact from it. Escape Artist would let you reposition in that short time while switching to the optimal weapon. If the Zed time is extended then extra movability may not do much. Also some weapons care more about getting headshots then shooting faster, so being able to get a safe distance away quickly then shot would be more useful.
If the testing of escape artist proves it to be too weak then it could always give something else as well; like reduced recoil or a small heal (on activation or kill).

 

[Aze]

Comments responses:
My overall goal of the rework was to replace problem skills that are too specific with more general options while also doing some consistency changes. As such I did not include some buffs that may be needed (like recoil reduction or more damage from base.) as I don’t want to accidentally overbuff him at the same time as replacing skills (tripwire can always buff him more after the rework.)
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Response to specifically Humam2104
(I don’t think the survivalist is OP. I am just of the mindset that it is better to do small incremental buffs then rush out a large buff that may make him better at using some guns than their own perk does.)

Melee expert was more “useful” for if you used a melee weapon however that requires you to buy a good melee weapon which takes weight and money away from having a 2-3 gun build. (though a Melee expert makes a better knife then fallback.) Though Medical training is very good, it is a bad design, that unless you want a melee weapon then you're forced into using Medical Training.

Though some weapons do “need” certain buffs that their perk has to be viable (like penetration for support, recoil reduction for commando, or mag size for swat weapons.), there are 9 classes of weapons to choose from with many of them not needing those specific changes to work. If the survivalist had a buff to counter the innate weakness of every perk weapon while also having similar damage then there would never be a reason to use the perks for those weapons.
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Response to specifically Aze
Military Training
I was kind of trying to kill the idea of the survivalist using Melee weapons because it is kind of dumb. Needing to switch to a melee weapon to get any benefits was bad and unless you are trying to save ammo then it is almost better to just point blank shoot the enemy (unless you are using explosives guns.) Having each of your guns being able to melee bash better seems more logical, so you can save money and weight from needing to buy a melee weapon while saving time from needing to switch weapons. The bash damage boost could be changed to all melee hits and also give attack speed if necessary, but that might make it much better than Medical Training. Also, barely any of the other skills affect melee weapons (zed-plosion, Currant Lockdown, indirectly of what grenade you have), so to me It makes more sense to let Guns (weapons going to get stronger with each tier.) to just have better melee and move speed.
Note: I do main Berserker and like to be reckless as it so I may be biased towards it.

Tactical Magazines:
I considered the increased reload speed if the mag size isn’t increased, but I decided not to include it since no other version of the tradeoff has the mag size be able to increase reload speed.

Tier 3:
I didn’t want to straight up buff the survivalist at the same time as reworking a lot of perks, so though these skills are underwhelming, I kept them the same. Also other perks also have some tiers that are underwhelming, so though buffing the tier may make sense, it doesn’t need to happen. For your suggestion of weapon switch speed, it isn’t necessary as they put on the beta base 35% at all levels. Could go for some recoil reduction instead by like 15% or something.

Escape artist is weak::
Note: I usually prestige any perk that hits 25, so I don’t have much experience on the balance of Zed time skills.
I don’t know how impactful 3X weapon shoot speed is but in the base 3 seconds of it being active you probably wouldn’t get much impact from it. Escape Artist would let you reposition in that short time while switching to the optimal weapon. If the Zed time is extended then extra movability may not do much. Also some weapons care more about getting headshots then shooting faster, so being able to get a safe distance away quickly then shot would be more useful.
If the testing of escape artist proves it to be too weak then it could always give something else as well; like reduced recoil or a small heal (on activation or kill).

Military Training / melee:
I feel completely leaving out melee goes against the jack-of-ALL-trades idea though. I know many people who enjoy mixing melee with guns (I can enjoy it myself sometimes too), which is really only viable to do on Survivalist. Also, bashes are mostly for stumbles - dealing damage with them is horrendous as they are so hard to headshot with, not to mention really weak.
While many of the talents don't affect melee directly, neither do all the talents affect guns either. For example increased healing and runspeed (i.e. most of Tier 2) is pretty general in that, and while the healing helps some medic guns - it helps Hemoclobber too. Tier 1 affects some melee weapons (Elite reloads on Hemoclobber, Eviscerator and Pulverizer, for example). Tier 3 can affect melee too (ammo helps the three ammo-melee already mentioned, while increased weight indirectly helps ANY weapon, melee included).
To me it seems more like you just REALLY don't want Survivalists to use melee weapons, which I just can't agreed with.

Tactical Magazines:
Two (or more) wrong doesn't make a right What I mean is: The same idea I suggested should be done for the other perks with similar choices (Commando and Support, namely. Most important for Support though).

Tier 3:
I understand your concern, but I don't think these small numbers would make an enormous impact to be honest. Just that between the two choies, the +5 weight seems by far the stronger one, thus the passive added to the ammo-choice was intentionally more impactful. And yes, I know Survivalist is getting 35% switch speed in Xmas beta - this was meant to be a bit more on top of that.

Escape Artist:
Madman is very impactful, especially with a Commando in the team along with you (which is more or less necessary on higher difficulties). So while movespeed indeed isn't weak per se, being able to kill enemies quicker is generally a much stronger asset. But I understand your concern, again, and I think your cautious nature is good - but don't be TOO cautious either