Spawn Camping/Supression

[Leo]

...I've never bought into the "War is hell" rhetoric of some gamers. It's not war, it's a game and it's supposed to be fun for everyone. Locking people into a spawn basically denies them the opportunity to even play the game, so what's the point?

Well put Solo. The sole reason I stopped playing UT2K4 and BF2 was because of this terrible attitude. It is the mark of a good community when players are equally satisfied when others have an equally fun time playing the game, regardless of whether they have won or lost the match.

I cannot understand the attitude where anything goes and responsibility and decentness gets thrown out of the window. YES it is a game, and YES we shouldn't take it seriously, but that doesn't mean we should be idiots about it.

Internet anonymity be damned!

 

[Heinz]

the game should be played with an eye towards good sportsmanship and fair play; seasoned with a drop or two of historical reality. spawn raping is just bad sportsmanship. driving a clown car around and running people over is just gamey garbage.

 

[Red_line]

Spawn camping is not nearly the problem that team-killing is.

We should be focusing on a better method for booting TK's, without booting Squad Leaders who have idiots that repeatedly walk under their own artillery.

Is there no way to boot TKers in the spawn zone, as opposed to people who have made "legitimate" friendly-fire errors elsewhere on the map?

In seems to me that 90% of pernicious TK's happen in, or near, the spawn zone.

 

[Rameusb5]

Spawn camping can't possibly be considered a valid tactic because last time I checked, you don't have spawns in real life.

In FPS games, it has become socially acceptable to get any kind of advantage you can. Game designers typically put some kind of code in the game that prevents spawn killing and exit camping to some degree, but it's usually up to the mappers to make it work.

Any map that contains a spawn point with only one exit is a badly designed map. Any map that contains a spawn point that is visible to the enemy is a badly designed map. Any map that allows enemy to enter a spawn zone is a badly designed map.

RO has this issue less than any other game due to the lethality of the weapons and the fact that most maps are designed well enough to prevent it. But it still happens.

I think "cheap" is the perfect word to describe spawn exit camping. No, it's not cheating, by the strictest definition. Sure, you're getting kills. But does it require any skill? Nope! And saying that some maps require spawn supression in order to win is total BS. I don't spawn camp and I win all the time.

I'll never understand the attitude of gamers who want to win a game by not actually playing it.

 

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

is that bill nurray venkman?. [ironhorse]

Yeah, the field marshal version, rofl

 

[PsYcH0_Ch!cKeN]

Exit camping is fair game. If you're good enough/the other team is incompetent enough to let you into a position where you can take out players as they leave their spawn area, then so be it. Since it's only the exit, the spawning players are still able to regroup, plan their exit and attempt to take you out.

Spawn camping is a bannable offense in my book. There is no excuse for killing players whilst still in their spawn zone. I don't care if it's bullets, grenades or arty (if I had my way dropping arty on a spawn point would earn an instant perma-ban). It's low, it requires no skill (yep, those freshly spawned guys who're still working out which direction the game's decided to point them are a real threat!) and it's neither realistic or fun.

 

[Hyperion2010]

I think its fair, given that if you were in a warzone you ya know, might be expected to expect to be shot at and adjust accordingly?

Shooting directly into the area where players spawn is not cool, and map design needs to be such that a player who shoots at enemies leaving spawn can be flanked and killed, basically no choke points right at the spawn exits can make "exit camping" very inefficient.

 

[Cerberus]

I think it's ok as long as you're not exploiting to do it (like avoiding spawn protection or going where it's obvious the map designer didn't want you to be). Things like running the tank up to HQ on Odessa tank and guard the spawn exit so the infantry can cap is ok by me.

 

[MILK]

a lot of players should realize that the game starts once they are respawned... there is NO boundary to say "now it is not cheap to kill ur enemy" there is only spawn protection area, once you leave this area you have to count with that you can be shot... thats all ... if your solution is to cry on forums about it... than just lol

I think it's ok as long as you're not exploiting to do it (like avoiding spawn protection or going where it's obvious the map designer didn't want you to be). Things like running the tank up to HQ on Odessa tank and guard the spawn exit so the infantry can cap is ok by me.

Are you sure you are talikng about Odessa?

 

[PsYcH0_Ch!cKeN]

There's a custom Odessa variant with tanks which he may be talking about. Personally I'm not a fan. The map's not designed for tanks, so they're easy to exploit as in the case of parking it right at the spawn exit.

 

[Vader]

This whole thread is stupid.. how can anyone complain about spawn exit camping? You know when the first round starts, both teams spawn and run to a objective and fight, if you lose your fights you get pushed back, but it is easy to recover unless you lose your fights completely. I enjoy spawn exit camping because of the fact that it tells me on of two things, the enemy isn't as good as my team and the fact that if they get out of their spawn first, then I will leave too. You should always remember it is their fault for being spawned, when you have even teams playing each other, this usually doesn't happen. I don't see this issue being a problem at all, if people think it is a issue, find different servers or choose better teams?

 

[Solo4114]

Sorry, I don't buy it. I still see it as (a) map dependent, but (b) still generally a pretty lameass tactic.

It depends on HOW it happens, though and what the exit looks like. If the exit's got plenty of cover for exiting troops, if there's not a long clear line of sight to it for the enemy, I've got a lot less of a problem. Also, if a squad leader's there and can smoke the exit to cover the troops, less of a problem.

But, if it's a fish-in-a-barrel situation, I don't care how much it's the other team's "fault". You're still showing zero consideration for them as gamers, and frankly I think that's a bunch of crap.

Plus, what kind of challenge is it to shoot people as they come out of the spawn and can't even see you? As a person on the team of the exit camper, I usually am getting pissed because there's nothing for me to do while this exit camper just sits there and hoses the team down.

Like I said, if the map's designed well it isn't usually a problem, but generally speaking locking a team up in to their spawn is just boring to me and isn't a sign of any real challenge.

But then, I don't like to play a round where my team "Totally pwnz" the other team. I don't like Superbowls where one team CLEARLY dominates the other team. I find that all intensely boring. I much prefer a tougher fight, like one that comes down to literally the last minute, where both sides are unsure of the outcome. THAT, to me, is a "gg", not some "HAHA!!! My team kicked your team's ass!" game. Especially if that was accomplished with exit camping, it doesn't impress me any.



This has, however, been a longstanding debate in the online gaming community. There are some gamers who are more concerned with winning than with the fun of the game. I like both, personally. I like to win, but I like to win on a map where the enemy gave me a real challenge. I don't like bullying kindergarteners or pulling the wings off flies.

 

[CCCP Kirby]

It depends:

Real spawncamping = lame
Exit spawncamping = valid

Even in Wolfenstein Enemy Territory most servers kick for spawnkilling and that's an arcade game. Not for spawn exit but for supressing the team as soon as they spawn.


My suggestion: STOP BEING A WINTEAM JOINER OR WHORE AND SUPPORT THE OTHER TEAM THAT NEEDS HELP TO GET OUT OF THE SPAWN.
I don't want to win, but I want to have fun.


Thanks

 

[Vader]

Solo its not even a tatic, it just happens.. I have never heard anyone over the comms in a public server say, "ok guys, lets beat them so bad that we spawn them!" It just happens by the facts I just stated in my last post. The game to me is still fun even if I get spawned, I'm not going to keep playing a game if it isn't fun. Worring about a gamers "feelings" over the internet in a fps shooter game makes me laugh. If you think spawn exit camping shows you have zero consideration for them as gamers, then what do you call yourself that plays the same game they do?

 

[drdave]

I understand the concepts of this being war and all but in war you don't have foreknowlege that specific on where your enemy will appear.

I think taking advantage of foreknowlege like spawn points and only paths of approach are kind of cheap. Like on Kaukuses where the russians can throw nades virtually from their spawn and cover one of only two approaches that the Axis have. Camping a defensive point and camping the exit of a spawn is two different things in my book, especially if the map is poorly made and you are camping one of two or only exit out.

As others have put it, the most fun is when you have intense battles that are decided in the last minutes of the round.

 

[slyder73]

I understand the concepts of this being war and all but in war you don't have foreknowlege that specific on where your enemy will appear.

I think taking advantage of foreknowlege like spawn points and only paths of approach are kind of cheap. Like on Kaukuses where the russians can throw nades virtually from their spawn and cover one of only two approaches that the Axis have. Camping a defensive point and camping the exit of a spawn is two different things in my book, especially if the map is poorly made and you are camping one of two or only exit out.

As others have put it, the most fun is when you have intense battles that are decided in the last minutes of the round.

I've never had a problem on Kaukasus when the German team has been communicating and working together right off the bat. It's common knowledge that the nade spam comes over the walls and at the Back Route almost as the German team arrives. Simple VOIP comms to get the team to hold back there for a few seconds till the nades go off and coordinating to move in after works. There are lots of ways to do it, and I've seen it work well for the Germans many times.
In talking about spawn killing...one of my favorite strategies on Berezina when playing as the Germans (once the Russians are pushed back to the 2nd Line), is to take a couple guys round the back to the rear entrance to the tunnels. A sloppy Russian team rarely guards this. We go in the tunnel to teh room where some (but not all) of the infantry spawn and pretty much shoot them as they spawn. If we have a few more guys, they are covered to run further up the tunnels then to the cap point and at the same time VOIP'ing the team to let them know the enemy infantry is being covrered and to rush the 2nd Line trenches. It works well when all three of those parts are working together. Valid tactic? Yes. Good teamwork? Yes. Poor defense on the part of the Russians? Yes. Cheap tactic? Not at all.
In my opinion, doing this is the essense of good teamwork, getting everyone to work together to have multiple groups working to take the trenches. I mean, we could all sit back and just run head on over and over until reinforcements are gone, but I like to try to play a little more intelligent than that.
As the Russians, it is very easy to defend against this, and the biggest thing is to communicate. VOIP that someone is in that tunnel room and the infantry etc that don't spawn there ro the tankers or guys in the trenches can simply come in the other door and clear it out.
To protect the back door is also easy, and again requires some communication and a guy watching or gunning at it. WHen he gets action he calls it out and help comes from the front of the trenches.
I think on maps where the spawns are confined to a narrow area and there is no way to counterattack this spawn suppression need to be fixed, but on maps like Berezina or others where the spawns may be covered as well as freed from multiple directions.....to take advantage of an unguarded weakness while coordinating it with your team is just the type of realistic and tactical gameplay that makes this game great.

 

[IncredibleGeek]

Solo its not even a tatic, it just happens.. I have never heard anyone over the comms in a public server say, "ok guys, lets beat them so bad that we spawn them!" It just happens by the facts I just stated in my last post. The game to me is still fun even if I get spawned, I'm not going to keep playing a game if it isn't fun. Worring about a gamers "feelings" over the internet in a fps shooter game makes me laugh. If you think spawn exit camping shows you have zero consideration for them as gamers, then what do you call yourself that plays the same game they do?

It's attitudes like that ("..makes me laugh..") that ruin the game for others. The idea that no one has feelings or gets angry/mad at a game is just dumb. I don't exit camp, because it pisses me off when others do it. If the map is well designed, it doesn't happen to me, but there's a lot of crap maps out there.

I don't do it because I hope there's /some/ shread of consideration left in gamers. Yes, it can be a viable tactic. Yes, war is hell. But as realistic as I want the game to be, I want it to be fun. And being exit camped on a map that there's no chance to fight back is not fun. We're all playing the same game. Why play in a way that pisses off others, just so you can win?

 

[[CoFR]BeerHunter]

shoot them as they spawn

That my friend would certainly get you the boot as it's unsportsmanlike.

A valid tactic in competition maybe , but I'm talking about a PUBLIC server where players come to have fun,and I know from experience (the old DoD days) that being shot as soon as you spawn is not fun.

While in spawn you at least have the opportunity to try an organise against players supressing the spawn exit but no way in hell would I tolerate a player shooting another player as soon as they spawn.

No , I'm talking about the enemy supressing while you try to exit spawn , NOT in spawn.

 

[Phoenix-D]

Again, if the map is set up right spawn camping is NOT POSSIBLE. Even if the spawns are completely exposed. Players are invulnerable when they first appear.

 

[REZ]

I think Heinz said it the best..

the game should be played with an eye towards good sportsmanship and fair play

It goes without saying, we all know that you do not kill in spawn.. whether or not they just appeared or have been standing there for awhile.. shooting/attacking into spawn is a big no-no.

Exit camping, I feel, is very weak, but not totally illegal like spawn killing. We used to get exit camped in BFE, and its an unsportsmanlike thing to do IMO.. especially when there is only one way to exit. Exit camping is usually a tactic employed by people who think kills are the name of the game, and we all know that that isnt where its at. If cheap kills are your cup of tea, then go ahead and build your reputation around being the lowest common denominator. A top player would never exit camp or spawn kill. Someone who is desperate to win, would.