RO claims to have simulation level armor.
How exactly do you quantify "simulation level"?
That alone tells me its NOT a simulation, just something that approximates it.
Upvote
0
Poll are the tanks broken or messed up
- Thread starter jtkalal
- Start date
How exactly do you quantify "simulation level"?
That alone tells me its NOT a simulation, just something that approximates it.
Upvote
0
I don't expect it to be simulation. I don't also talk about things which are (as far as I know) impossible or very hard to do with the game engine. I only talked about things that are relatively easy to do and in fact not very advanced (much less than CM for example, not to say about tank sims). The ricochet, penetration and damage calculations are done anyway. Why don't make them correct at least ?
I don't talk about realistic shot ballistics, penetration calculations including armour type, hardness, quality, round type and hardness. Don't talk about realistic tank driving, realistic tank speed and acceleration (they are riding like today's MBTs currently), realistic loader working on command, realistic damage of various tank systems (gun, turret ring, radio, optics, cupola), or other things I would expect from realistic tank simulation. I only talked about basic things, with direct influence on gameplay and tactics. Ricochets and armor penetration, reload times, player stations, tank and crew damage. All those things are more or less already in the game, just need to be corrected or remodelled. All it takes is little coding work. I would do this, if I only knew how all this works, what each class does, how are collisions handled, how are interactions between code and 3d models realised. I don't know Unreal engine unfortunately. Adding one more playable tank, would take overall more work and time than realising all the things I was talking about !
Yes it's a game. But it says it is a REALISTIC game, isn't it ? On the box of my copy of the game there is much written about realism, realistic weapons and gameplay. Is it only a word ? Currentlly the tanks in RO have not much more in common with it's real life counterparts than the 3D model and inside graphics. I don't ask for them to be very advanced, but at least correct.
The point is, that the tank combat in the game should be at least as realistic, as infantry. Infantry fight and weapons are very detailed, the tank part of the game is oversimplified. Make them equal and I'll be happy. Make them at least correct.
I don't want more tanks, more maps or more weapons. Mod makers would care for this for sure. But I would expect game developers to enchance and improve basic game mechanics, that all future mods will be based on.
I don't talk about realistic shot ballistics, penetration calculations including armour type, hardness, quality, round type and hardness. Don't talk about realistic tank driving, realistic tank speed and acceleration (they are riding like today's MBTs currently), realistic loader working on command, realistic damage of various tank systems (gun, turret ring, radio, optics, cupola), or other things I would expect from realistic tank simulation. I only talked about basic things, with direct influence on gameplay and tactics. Ricochets and armor penetration, reload times, player stations, tank and crew damage. All those things are more or less already in the game, just need to be corrected or remodelled. All it takes is little coding work. I would do this, if I only knew how all this works, what each class does, how are collisions handled, how are interactions between code and 3d models realised. I don't know Unreal engine unfortunately. Adding one more playable tank, would take overall more work and time than realising all the things I was talking about !
Yes it's a game. But it says it is a REALISTIC game, isn't it ? On the box of my copy of the game there is much written about realism, realistic weapons and gameplay. Is it only a word ? Currentlly the tanks in RO have not much more in common with it's real life counterparts than the 3D model and inside graphics. I don't ask for them to be very advanced, but at least correct.
The point is, that the tank combat in the game should be at least as realistic, as infantry. Infantry fight and weapons are very detailed, the tank part of the game is oversimplified. Make them equal and I'll be happy. Make them at least correct.
I don't want more tanks, more maps or more weapons. Mod makers would care for this for sure. But I would expect game developers to enchance and improve basic game mechanics, that all future mods will be based on.
Last edited:
Upvote
0
Simulation level would mean it's equal to a simulation.
Perhaps it's a language barrier. "Simulation level" to me means an approximation of a simulation. Otherwise they would have just said, "Detailed armor combat simulator". This is a First Person Shooter, if you haven't noticed, and it plays more realistically than any other FPS on the market. If I want a tank simulator, I'll get a different game. Otherwise, it's fun and gives a good approximation of tank combat.
Upvote
0
First off,
RO armor combat is an action game, not a simulation
Similar Armor Action Games: Panzer Elite Action & Armor Fist
Armor Simulation Games: Panzer Commander, Panzer Elite, WWII OL & Steel Beast series
I really enjoy the armor in RO for I accept it as an action game. When folks talk about it being a sim, that's where it gets rough.
Some of us tankers like to buy armor simulations. We expect sim results. The expected damage which occurs in other simulations and which has been documents in AAR’s either don’t appear at all in RO or in a very in constant method.
Maybe the line that is posted here: http://www.redorchestragame.com/index.php?categoryid=2 "Engage enemy tanks at 800 metres and more with the Simulation-level armored vehicle combat " May be in need of being edited? This is what brought me to the game.
Ami, great post! I agree, you should start a new thread for you have great detail on what needs to be addressed.
I respect the fact that TW is a fledging company and what it has achieved. With that in mind, they may need to move onto other new projects. TW has done what it can for now on this issue. If folks care enough, let's band together and look at what we can do.
Question, is it possible for the mod community to correct the errors and have an “Armor Realism Mod”? I would expect this type of mod would be warmly welcome by the realism clans as well as by tankers whom want to tank in more of a sim. Maybe the mod community then could submit their work to TW to have them include the work into a future update? This has been done with many other games out there. The important issue here is what kind of relationship TW has with the Mod Community? Will TW fully support a group in developing the Armor Realism Mod? If the answers are: 1) TW has a great relationship with the Mod Community & 2) Yes it will fully support a group of talented modders... then this would be a great first step. Then it's up to the Mod Community to form a solid group and work with TW to achieve the goal.
A simulation is an imitation of some real thing, state of affairs, or process.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulation
RO armor combat is an action game, not a simulation
Similar Armor Action Games: Panzer Elite Action & Armor Fist
Armor Simulation Games: Panzer Commander, Panzer Elite, WWII OL & Steel Beast series
I really enjoy the armor in RO for I accept it as an action game. When folks talk about it being a sim, that's where it gets rough.
Some of us tankers like to buy armor simulations. We expect sim results. The expected damage which occurs in other simulations and which has been documents in AAR’s either don’t appear at all in RO or in a very in constant method.
Maybe the line that is posted here: http://www.redorchestragame.com/index.php?categoryid=2 "Engage enemy tanks at 800 metres and more with the Simulation-level armored vehicle combat " May be in need of being edited? This is what brought me to the game.
Ami, great post! I agree, you should start a new thread for you have great detail on what needs to be addressed.
I respect the fact that TW is a fledging company and what it has achieved. With that in mind, they may need to move onto other new projects. TW has done what it can for now on this issue. If folks care enough, let's band together and look at what we can do.
Question, is it possible for the mod community to correct the errors and have an “Armor Realism Mod”? I would expect this type of mod would be warmly welcome by the realism clans as well as by tankers whom want to tank in more of a sim. Maybe the mod community then could submit their work to TW to have them include the work into a future update? This has been done with many other games out there. The important issue here is what kind of relationship TW has with the Mod Community? Will TW fully support a group in developing the Armor Realism Mod? If the answers are: 1) TW has a great relationship with the Mod Community & 2) Yes it will fully support a group of talented modders... then this would be a great first step. Then it's up to the Mod Community to form a solid group and work with TW to achieve the goal.
A simulation is an imitation of some real thing, state of affairs, or process.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulation
Upvote
0
you never get bored from vindicate the game, dont you ?
the game is not even near a "simulation level" at least not with tanks, to be at least near a simulation, we woud need at least the Panzer IV G or H, though we even have not them in game. And the tanks that are already in game, do often not work right.
Upvote
0
It's all well and good to request or demand revised armor and weapon tables, but it's important to recognize what that'll mean to the existing game.
If they implement:
- additional "critical points" (turret optics, crew compartment, etc.)
- more accurate armor values
- more accurate weapon values
- more accurate infantry weapon values
We're going to need new maps. The current maps have engagement ranges of about 300m at most (on average anyway). I'm talking about the official maps, mind you. Black Day in July and Orel don't count because they aren't official.
If you have tank engagements happening at >300m, pretty much ALL the tanks (with a few exceptions for various match-ups) are going to be getting 1-shot kills on each other. It will end up being no different from the pre-patch tanks, except that tanks will actually die FASTER.
Yes, the armor and penetration values aren't 100% accurate. That's because the ENGAGEMENT RANGES are not 100% accurate. The largest scale official map is Arad.
Compare that for a second to Black Day or Orel. Arad is TINY by comparison. Your engagement range on that map is MAYBE 700m on the outside, assuming you're not trying to snipe from your spawn or some other goofy tactic. If you're actually getting out into the field, you're more likely to be engaging at around 500m at most.
Basically, we CAN'T have better numerical values until we have maps that would actually be fun to play released officially or re-done to take into account the new values.
Think about Bondarevo, for example. Can you imagine what a freaking drag it'd be to play that map with fixed penetration values? EVERY tanker would die in seconds. There'd be no strategy whatsoever.
Now, I'm all for a "remix" of the tank and CA maps in this game, but if they're gonna put tanks in and have them using absolute real-world numerical values, we're gonna need MUCH bigger maps.
If they implement:
- additional "critical points" (turret optics, crew compartment, etc.)
- more accurate armor values
- more accurate weapon values
- more accurate infantry weapon values
We're going to need new maps. The current maps have engagement ranges of about 300m at most (on average anyway). I'm talking about the official maps, mind you. Black Day in July and Orel don't count because they aren't official.
If you have tank engagements happening at >300m, pretty much ALL the tanks (with a few exceptions for various match-ups) are going to be getting 1-shot kills on each other. It will end up being no different from the pre-patch tanks, except that tanks will actually die FASTER.
Yes, the armor and penetration values aren't 100% accurate. That's because the ENGAGEMENT RANGES are not 100% accurate. The largest scale official map is Arad.
Compare that for a second to Black Day or Orel. Arad is TINY by comparison. Your engagement range on that map is MAYBE 700m on the outside, assuming you're not trying to snipe from your spawn or some other goofy tactic. If you're actually getting out into the field, you're more likely to be engaging at around 500m at most.
Basically, we CAN'T have better numerical values until we have maps that would actually be fun to play released officially or re-done to take into account the new values.
Think about Bondarevo, for example. Can you imagine what a freaking drag it'd be to play that map with fixed penetration values? EVERY tanker would die in seconds. There'd be no strategy whatsoever.
Now, I'm all for a "remix" of the tank and CA maps in this game, but if they're gonna put tanks in and have them using absolute real-world numerical values, we're gonna need MUCH bigger maps.
Upvote
0
Yep. The realism pundits forget that GAMEPLAY > realism. If the game ain't fun, no one will play it except about three dozen realism freaks.
The armor combat gives a decent representation although it needs some tweaks.
Upvote
0
Very valid points Solo.
Most like the small maps due to the limited drive/walk times to the combat area. Most played the larger maps which it takes 5 plus minutes to drive to a combat area. Not many of the players like it. It's hurry up and let me shoot environment. (Im included in that...) As the map designers gain more experience on what the public wants, the maps will (and are) becoming a lot better. We are now at ranges of 600m and up on the larger maps.
I am guessing that the numbers of new maps that are going to be released by TW are going to shrink with time. Likewise, players will get tired of the stock maps and want to play other maps. Just look at the top 10 servers where the majority rules in selecting maps and see what maps are being played. New maps will continue to be played and the old stock maps will fallout of favor.
We don
Most like the small maps due to the limited drive/walk times to the combat area. Most played the larger maps which it takes 5 plus minutes to drive to a combat area. Not many of the players like it. It's hurry up and let me shoot environment. (Im included in that...) As the map designers gain more experience on what the public wants, the maps will (and are) becoming a lot better. We are now at ranges of 600m and up on the larger maps.
I am guessing that the numbers of new maps that are going to be released by TW are going to shrink with time. Likewise, players will get tired of the stock maps and want to play other maps. Just look at the top 10 servers where the majority rules in selecting maps and see what maps are being played. New maps will continue to be played and the old stock maps will fallout of favor.
We don
Upvote
0
Black day in july, is one of the best and most fun maps, realistic ranges (well at least somewhat about 700-1000m) and it is somewhat relative fast to get in to combat, compared to Orel.
But that only realism nuts woud play the game, with more realistic tanks, is a legend if you ask me! All thisgames today, that "try" to go for realism and many people here that realy cry for it, show me, that there is a big potential, we have now the engines that can support it, the computers to play it, but the lack is with games that use it "right", i coud count 100 arcade like games, that are realy funn, ... but maybe not even a handfull ones that are "realy" giving a realistic simulation like level of combat.
Counterstrike and DoD had a huge playerbase, in there best times, but even with new games, that are now more arcade then ever, its a playerbase much smaller then before? Why is that so ?
If you ask me, people get slighty bored from to much arcade. At least thats my opinion.
Give the game a good realism (if possible), and you will see, it will not loose more players, of course we need realistic maps that fitt in to that combat also, that for sure.
But that only realism nuts woud play the game, with more realistic tanks, is a legend if you ask me! All thisgames today, that "try" to go for realism and many people here that realy cry for it, show me, that there is a big potential, we have now the engines that can support it, the computers to play it, but the lack is with games that use it "right", i coud count 100 arcade like games, that are realy funn, ... but maybe not even a handfull ones that are "realy" giving a realistic simulation like level of combat.
Counterstrike and DoD had a huge playerbase, in there best times, but even with new games, that are now more arcade then ever, its a playerbase much smaller then before? Why is that so ?
If you ask me, people get slighty bored from to much arcade. At least thats my opinion.
Give the game a good realism (if possible), and you will see, it will not loose more players, of course we need realistic maps that fitt in to that combat also, that for sure.
Upvote
0
How can realistic maps being developed (and what for) if the armor/penetration values are not real and tweaked to close ranges ? What should go first ? There is longer ranged map, the Orel. I think they will be showing greater infantry/combined maps too, because for many people such combat at medium distances is more interesting than a CS style short-range.
About an armour mod - I'm currently reviewing the RO SDK and UnrealScript to see how the armor things are calculated and how could be fixed. Some comments are on Mod/Coding section in thread "How is armor calculated".
I feel could fix the current armor and penetration system without much problem, for far more realistic ricochets and penetration ranges - that would be very small code only mod, only I don't know how to package it yet and make a mod/mutator from it. The results should be very visible.
But the system would be still poor, as as far as I found up today there are single armor rating value for front/side/rear of tanks, not even split for turret and hull (!!!) not talking about front lower/front upper ect. Also the determination of where a shell hit an angled tank (front armor or side armor) seems to be based on angle (from the side you hit always side), it seems so both from calculations done and from the fact that tank hit meshes are made from single material... Very very basic model it is...
It could be still enchanced but I would need help of someone who knows Unreal engine and UnrealScript and how it works (what each class does, how is connected with others, how are interactions between meshes(models) and scripts handled. Then separate armor ratings for hulls and turrets could be coded, also better tank damage system and player stations (separate commander/gunner stations).
With help of someone knowing how to 3D model for the game, better tank hit meshes could be done (there is currently only one hit detection model of tank turret in the game, for the tiger, the rest of tanks have only basic hitboxses!) and more detailed armor model - now it could be determined if side armor or front armor was hit, or even what armor plate, making armor model better than in CM in some areas. All this with mainly coding, evolutional development is possible so first simple fix of current system, later next improvements in other areas. The modeling work would be rather basic, all the work would be probably less than required to put one new tank platform to the game.
I have posted on Mare Nostrum forums to check if they are planning to improve this game area, or only focus on adding new platforms and offered my help. But I would like to fix the basic RO too of course.
About an armour mod - I'm currently reviewing the RO SDK and UnrealScript to see how the armor things are calculated and how could be fixed. Some comments are on Mod/Coding section in thread "How is armor calculated".
I feel could fix the current armor and penetration system without much problem, for far more realistic ricochets and penetration ranges - that would be very small code only mod, only I don't know how to package it yet and make a mod/mutator from it. The results should be very visible.
But the system would be still poor, as as far as I found up today there are single armor rating value for front/side/rear of tanks, not even split for turret and hull (!!!) not talking about front lower/front upper ect. Also the determination of where a shell hit an angled tank (front armor or side armor) seems to be based on angle (from the side you hit always side), it seems so both from calculations done and from the fact that tank hit meshes are made from single material... Very very basic model it is...
It could be still enchanced but I would need help of someone who knows Unreal engine and UnrealScript and how it works (what each class does, how is connected with others, how are interactions between meshes(models) and scripts handled. Then separate armor ratings for hulls and turrets could be coded, also better tank damage system and player stations (separate commander/gunner stations).
With help of someone knowing how to 3D model for the game, better tank hit meshes could be done (there is currently only one hit detection model of tank turret in the game, for the tiger, the rest of tanks have only basic hitboxses!) and more detailed armor model - now it could be determined if side armor or front armor was hit, or even what armor plate, making armor model better than in CM in some areas. All this with mainly coding, evolutional development is possible so first simple fix of current system, later next improvements in other areas. The modeling work would be rather basic, all the work would be probably less than required to put one new tank platform to the game.
I have posted on Mare Nostrum forums to check if they are planning to improve this game area, or only focus on adding new platforms and offered my help. But I would like to fix the basic RO too of course.
Upvote
0
thats interesting to know ...
and it woud explain why rounds, do bounce of turrets, even when you hit them in a way, it never coud richochet without damage.
Upvote
0
I hate it when a tank commander comes out of the turret's hatch and even if he looks around 360 you can't see the model move at all.
Upvote
0
I'm all for a mod, but I think as far as an official patch to change things, that's something you have to be careful about.
Don't get me wrong. I'd prefer the numerical values be changed AND we get tank maps with more realistic ranges, but you can't have one without the other. They're too closely connected.
That's a shame, though, that turrets are treated identically to the hull of the tank. that's flat-out wrong. For some reason, I thought that all the various facings on tanks were calculated, though. Including, for example, a slopped upper and lower part of the hull.
Don't get me wrong. I'd prefer the numerical values be changed AND we get tank maps with more realistic ranges, but you can't have one without the other. They're too closely connected.
That's a shame, though, that turrets are treated identically to the hull of the tank. that's flat-out wrong. For some reason, I thought that all the various facings on tanks were calculated, though. Including, for example, a slopped upper and lower part of the hull.
Upvote
0
as already said, not even close to a simulation level.
its not just only about bugs, but many frustrating flaws. I realy hope for the next patch ... but if it realy will be a fix for the armor combat ... we will see.
its not just only about bugs, but many frustrating flaws. I realy hope for the next patch ... but if it realy will be a fix for the armor combat ... we will see.
Upvote
0