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On Demolitionist, its history, and its weird/problematic aspects

OnionBubs

Grizzled Veteran
Apr 27, 2021
386
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As of the last couple of years, this perk has been at the forefront of my brain regarding the game's design and such, it's just that any real balancing discussions have been superseded by far more pressing matters such as Field Medic, Berserker, etc.

The TL;DR of all of this is that at this current point in time, I don't have a clear vision on how TWI wants the class to be played, what vision they have for it, or what they want to do with it. Hear me out.

So back in the old, old days of Early Access, we had a little patch called the Incinerate 'n' Detonate Update which introduced Firebug and Demo into the game (and Berserker became the monster that it remained for several years, but let's ignore that for now). Firebug was a walking monstrosity and was, at the time, the single strongest force in the entire game. Meanwhile, Demo was mostly pitiful due to a litany of issues:
  • On its small list of weapons (which at the time included the HX-25, C4, M79, and RPG), few of them were capable of reliably killing much of anything; starter Demo was considered a liability to the team because it was comparatively that helpless.
  • You couldn't pair the M79 with the RPG (which was a deliberate decision).
  • The perk had an issue with disappearing projectiles where your shots would literally come out and vanish into thin air.
  • I don't even think the RPG got the Scrake damage multiplier until a later patch.
  • The skill tree was kind of a mess. This was a running theme with the early access perks, but Demo's was really bad:
    • Dynamite exploding on contact was one of the Lv 5 skill tree choices instead of a passive skill, opposite Grenade Supplier (yes, the resupply skill was also originally an active skill choice, not a passive)
    • Lv 10 offered a choice between extra explosive resistance or Reactive Armor (yep, that wasn't a passive)
    • Lv 15 offered Siren Resistant Rounds vs. Door Traps (yep, those weren't a passive)
    • Lv 20 was truly unusual in that it offered extra damage with off-perk weapons vs. extra damage with on-perk weapons. I suppose the intent here was that Off-Perk was meant for RPG/C4/Deagle users, but I honestly can't remember any other perk having an option like this.
    • Lv 25 was basically the same option as it remains today--Nuke vs. Concussive Rounds--but the important thing to note is why that distinction was so relevant. Nuke used to utterly waste anything and it was technically the strongest thing in the game. It later got patched with an explosive radius nerf to this, but you can hopefully see why this might be problematic nonetheless.
  • The C4 was considered the premier weapon for Demo to master, but here's the thing: C4 (up to today) is the biggest culprit of having hidden mechanics that aren't made apparent to the player. I'm going to be coming back to this because it's one of the main reasons Demo has never quite agreed with pubs in the same way expert players understand the perk.
So all of the above considered, Demo was justifiably regarded as underwhelming outside of Zed-Time. While it was plain that the intent was for the RPG and C4 to be the perk's defining weapons, it also became readily apparent that a perk balanced almost entirely around having Zed-Time wasn't really the most fun to play nor the healthiest idea for a shooter class, and with the next major update, Firebug got a nerf and Demo got a thorough rebalancing.
Firebug got toned down in general and the Microwave Gun was changed so that it no longer gobbled everything despite not having to aim, Demo's weapons all got tweaked, and most importantly, Demo's skill tree got reworked into (mostly) the current version we have today.

While I have to admit the current iteration of Demo is much better on the whole, the current design of Demo is also contentious for different reasons.
For the record: I get a lot of mixed signals in this game when it comes to "intent vs. execution" on different perks. Few of them hit my alarm bells on this front harder than Demo, insofar as actual specialist perks (I'm not counting Survivalist) are concerned. Much of what I perceive about Demo's current incarnation points to it being designed as "the RPG specialist." Take a look at its original redesigned skill tree (see attachment):
What can we infer from this?
  • Up until the very recent release of the HRG Medic Missile, it was the perk with the sole honor of having an on-perk weapon--the RPG--with a specifically coded 400% damage bonus against Scrakes while also having a damage type that Fleshpounds are weak against. So anti-large Zed.
  • The entire left-side tree is designed to burst-damage large Zeds with the multiplicative bonuses.
    • Destroyer of Worlds was toned down from "kills everything" to "adds a chokepoint lockdown that will conveniently eliminate trash near the large threat, but not to the degree of being a complete win button on everything."
  • Extra Rounds only gives five shots because it was designed with the RPG in mind, and so Demo doesn't become a complete spamfest on other weapons (hence why there's no percent and it's a flat value).
The right-side skills are designed with an anti-trash lockdown role in mind, but here's the thing: Demo wasn't really designed for that, and in practice it doesn't work in the same way it works on Firebug due to how most of Demo's weapons function.
  • Fragmentation Rounds has a decreased damage multiplier so players don't kill themselves with splash damage, and so players don't use the skill with the intent of running the RPG as an anti-trash weapon since that wasn't its intended design.
  • Shock Trooper and Concussive Rounds in tandem with weapons like the M79 and M32 create an extremely annoying combination where Demos will knock things down repeatedly but not actually kill most of them. Not only does this make Demo terrible at its intended role, but it also makes life harder for most perks in general since Zeds will be flopping everywhere, making them less predictable and harder to shoot, and generally only serves to prime the pump for raged HVTs.
  • Mad Bomber has its practical uses and there is genuine discussion on its value in Demo's intended anti-HVT role, but it becomes apparent from seeing it used that it was also designed as a spam-friendly skill.
It's as though the designers decided that people aren't going to want to pick Demo to just play a designated anti-HVT and decided that an exact opposite version of the role should exist to keep those players happy rather than it making sense. And ever since Demo's initial rework, the remainder of Demo's weapons have leaned into that opposite design principle instead:
  • The M79 was given a weight reduction because players wanted to spam it with the RPG, despite that making Demo worse at its intended role and usually was only run by players who had no idea what they were doing.
  • The Pulverizer exists because players wanted it for fun more than anything, despite it being easily one of Demo's worst options in the game.
  • The Seeker Six was IIRC the first weapon to be given to Demo, and was originally so bad that it was considered a throw pick weapon. It has since been buffed multiple times to be "viable, but still not great" and is run by players who enjoy spamming.
  • The M16/M203 was added as a self-defense option for Demo with the principle that it couldn't be run with the RPG. It was justifiably bad as you improved at the game and understood Demo's role better.
  • The M32 remains a contentious weapon to this day, as unlike in KF1, it's mediocre at everything and is saddled with a long reload time.
  • The Seal Squeal, Husk Cannon, HRG Crossboom, HRG Tommy Boom, and ZED MkIII are all very spam-oriented gimmick weapons that are either entirely ineffective against large Zeds or are so situational the opportunity for anti-HVT use might as well not exist.
  • Blunderbuss can be useful at anti-HVT work but is largely considered a gimmick weapon.
  • The HRG Kaboomstick goes against everything the original version of Demo stood for. On a perk that was designed to be a slow glass cannon disadvantaged at point-blank range in exchange for having a far higher skill floor in not having to aim:
    • It offers a flat upgrade in damage over the HX-25
    • It reloads effectively as fast as the HX-25
    • It offers insane close-range damage while also not hurting the user (which goes against all other weapons on Demo)
    • It offers Demo a huge mobility boost in the form of shotgun jumps, with everything that entails
    • It is light enough to be carried with the RPG (which was a deliberate design choice) so you can get the easiest burst damage weapon in the game along with another incredibly easy burst-damage weapon that counteracts most of its problems
    • It has so much knockback that anything which doesn't immediately die from its volley is guaranteed to stumble, meaning you can spam it at something like Scrakes--which are supposed to be resistant to explosives--for a very safe if not always efficient kill
    • It hurts Demo's potential anti-HVT output--to a point--in exchange for making Demo ridiculously easy to play overall
  • The Gravity Imploder isn't just bad, it's arguably one of the worst designed weapons in the entire game.
    • It's only useful against the lowest of trash, which is opposite Demo's intended role
    • Its behavior with regard to repositioning Zeds is extremely hard to predict, if not impossible at times, which is a problem since:
    • It can not only obstruct teams, but be an active hindrance by pulling in QPs and such to the rest of the team
    • It is a nightmare for anyone running precision perks to play around due to the particle effects, the Zeds warping around unpredictably, and so forth
Having said all that, after all these years, the game still doesn't communicate the basic mechanics of the C4 (the anti-spam damage reduction and what-have-you), nor does it even communicate the basic anti-Scrake properties of the RPG to players. Most people wouldn't know about it without either reading a walkthrough, and that's for the intended cornerstone weapons of the Demo!

And we're supposed to be getting a version of the Sentinel that shoots explosives (and presumably can rage large Zeds, trigger Destroyer of Worlds, etc.) coming down the pipeline! It's no wonder the perk is as much of a mess as it is; the entire design direction of the perk has been a complete 180 from when it was first reworked! As pub games go, the entire point of the perk is to spam the Kaboomstick and whatever other weapon you feel like because there are no rules anymore.

All of this to say: What is the intended principle behind Demo as seen from the devs' perspective today? What can be done to steer players in the direction of using as the originally designed explosive-combo takedown perk it was conceived as?

I have a couple of initial thoughts:
  • Nerf the Kaboomstick in a manner similar to the Locust. An across-the-board tamp-down. This weapon offers way too much for how easy it is to spam and honestly I can understand why most players run it, in the same way I can see why players run the Healthrower or the Locust on those respective perks.
  • Either add some tooltips or store descriptions (easiest to implement) for the C4 to indicate that it loses efficiency when detonated back-to-back. Something like "Horzine safety protocols built into the C4 lessen the payload when multiple charges are detonated in short order", and a loading screen tip that says "As Demolitionist, try to space out your C4 detonations for maximum yield."
  • Ditto for the RPG letting players know it is designed to kill Scrakes with headshots akin to a sniper rifle payload.
But I of course would welcome any additional input and extra thoughts. It pains me to see what was once a legitimately skill-indexed perk become one of the Four Horsemen of this game's pub scenes.
 

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Great feedback, as usual. TWI, please pay attention to what this guy says, he knows this stuff. You want to pay attention to what he says because:

1) your game is a long retention type of game which relies on DLC and lootboxes to extract profits from long retention players;
2) this MUST rely on the game having depth, if no depth then there's no long retention;
3) the depth is provided by complexity of navigating a very narrow, but existing path to victory in very difficult environment which allows a skilled player to win against the odds.

This is why you need to assign different weights to the feedback from different players. Long retention players have to have the weight of opinion roughly 250 as compared to 1 of the casual opinion, because it's these players who provide the feedback on how to ensure that the game had depth, the depth isn't ruined and deepened instead. Also, keep in mind, that you TWI yourselves don't play your game and have no clue how to balance it. You have to rely on opinions of veterans while making sure that what they propose doesn't hurt the casual playstyle much, if they are in conflict.

Having the preamble covered, I'd like to add a few points to the OP's feedback. Keep in mind though, that this game for me and people like myself revolves around just 2 gameplay scenarios, which are M14 SS and Desert Eagle GS for 80%, any non-starter tier rifle Commando 15% and the whole rest of perk issues are 5% of importance to me.

That said, I have a fully prestiged demo and probably 500-700 hours on it. I know a few things. The only way I've played it is filling the designated HVT killer role for the team, which is RGP (+1 if I can so I can 1-shot scrakes to the head), C4 and off-perk deagle or magnum.

I fully support nerfing down the kaboomstick. It's just too good. Specifically:
* InventorySize=6 => InventorySize=7 (aka weight 6=>7 kg) in order to mutually exclude running it with RPG-7;
* Damage per pellet, InstantHitDamage(DEFAULT_FIREMODE)=15 //10 //25 => InstantHitDamage(DEFAULT_FIREMODE)=11; -- note, that some your colleague had a pretty good idea of having 10 damage per pellet, but it was decided against it and it was a mistake;
* DoubleBarrelKickMomentum=1000 => DoubleBarrelKickMomentum=250

It also has too high stumble power which makes it very easy to keep stumbling scrakes in addition to having the recoil kick that propels the Kaboomstick's user away from raging scrakes attacks. E.g.:

StumblePower=75 => StumblePower=14 (to match that of HX25's pellets as the first approximation to start a conversation). The goal is to ensure it can't repeatedly stumble raging scrakes. I can experiment and come up with a precise threshold if needed -- just say it.

Another big thing with demo is it loses the RPG when it dies with some other weapon at hand (which is very likely as most of the time an anti-trash weapon is at hand), because the current weapon, probably a cheap anti-trash weapon, gets dropped, which is very painful, especially if the RPG was upgraded, it's just a weapon drop priority that needs to be fixed that the most important weapon gets dropped upon death. It's non-controversial and very easy to fix, nobody is going to complain about it ever.

> Lv 25 was basically the same option as it remains today--Nuke vs. Concussive Rounds--but the important thing to note is why that

Probably Nuke (DoW now) vs. Mad Bomber?

Of course, there's much more to the demo balance than just the kaboomstick question, but I would agree that it's the biggest and first at the moment.
 
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Siren Resistant Rounds is way too good to pass up IMO. I think the only way to really make Fragmentation Rounds work is to make Siren Resistance a passive, with the following effects in place:

Siren Resistance - Sirens debuff your projectiles, rather than destroy them outright.
20% + (16% every 5 levels)

Visual effects to denote debuffs:

Off-perk - 0% - Projectile destroyed outright
Level 0 - 20% - Atari explosion
Level 5 - 36% - 8-bit explosion
Level 10 - 52% - 256-color explosion, a la Tyrian 2000
Level 15 - 68% - 90s 3D explosion (think Quake and Half-Life 1)
Level 20 - 84% - Simplified explosions (think KF1 particle effects)
Level 25 - 100% - Completely immune to sirens.

Siren resistance as a passive could allow for a real choice to present itself. Perhaps these would be welcome choices?

High Explosive Rounds - Fragmentation Rounds in their current implementation
Fragmentation Rounds - Your frag grenades actually fragment! Shrapnel count, damage, and penetration is determinant based on weapon used.
 
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Siren Resistant Rounds is way too good to pass up IMO. I think the only way to really make Fragmentation Rounds work is to make Siren Resistance a passive, with the following effects in place:

Siren Resistance - Sirens debuff your projectiles, rather than destroy them outright.
20% + (16% every 5 levels)

Visual effects to denote debuffs:

Off-perk - 0% - Projectile destroyed outright
Level 0 - 20% - Atari explosion
Level 5 - 36% - 8-bit explosion
Level 10 - 52% - 256-color explosion, a la Tyrian 2000
Level 15 - 68% - 90s 3D explosion (think Quake and Half-Life 1)
Level 20 - 84% - Simplified explosions (think KF1 particle effects)
Level 25 - 100% - Completely immune to sirens.

Siren resistance as a passive could allow for a real choice to present itself. Perhaps these would be welcome choices?

High Explosive Rounds - Fragmentation Rounds in their current implementation
Fragmentation Rounds - Your frag grenades actually fragment! Shrapnel count, damage, and penetration is determinant based on weapon used.

I think that's a cool idea. At least you're totally right by saying it's too good to pass up and you got almost ZERO reason to take the current Fragmentation Rounds, compared to the luxury of never worrying about a siren wasting your precious ressources (and potentially putting your team in grave danger) by deleting your rockets/tnt/C4/others.

I don't know if the rework to the lvl 15 skills you offer is truly worthwhile though. At first, I thought it would only impact your TNT sticks, but apparently they add some shrapnels to every explosive weapons, if I got that right? This does seem aeons better than increasing the blast radius, as the best thing you can do as a demo is to nuke prime targets (namely the big zeds). But I never really tried the current Fragmentation Rounds either, so maybe that's some hidden gem.

As for @OnionBubs whole essay on the matter... I'm obviously fully behind it. When the perk first launched, it was REAAALLY just a one-trick-pony that wasn't very fun to play, and especially not without a good team (you really wouldn't have considered going solo with it). But the perk improved vastly afterward, and I'd say it was still somewhat balanced up until the release of the M16, which was the latest point where the perk still had a smidgeon of an identity. I actually liked the throwback to KF1, where the perk was immensely powerful, yes, but also took more than half the game to get his precious M32...

Now, its arsenal is so diverse that you can do anything, against anything, at anytime.

I'm a bit more cautious regarding the skill tree, but mostly because nearly every perk has a "meta" set of skills that everyone uses, simply because they're better. It's super rare to find two skills which are seen as equally good... usually, there's an option that's simply much better.
 
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