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Tactics Natural Cooperation & leaders

kartasik

Grizzled Veteran
Jun 1, 2006
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First let me state that I am not a good leader. I am more of an assassin but I do follow orders well under good leadership (sometimes, sadly, even under bad leadership).

I am always studying the group psychology of the battle field teams. There are two things I am aware of: Natural Pack Cooperation and Managed leadership.


Pack Tactical Thought

Years ago in 1997 while playing online in multiplayer Quake One, in the old Team Forts, I was always amazed at how 8 people, often strangers to one another, who could only type to communicate, would in heated fighting, where typing was impossible, coordinate complex tactical moves in a matter of just a few seconds of sizing up the situation. Some of these players may have sat in the same computer lab with one another, but in most cases I knew that this was not the case. Certainly I was alone and yet I meshed perfectly with these operations. There would be cases where we would face a stairway in a large room that was guarded by two robot machineguns backed up with player guards up above. And yet with out any communication, with only a few seconds of us sizing up the situation, we would execute a complex set of moves where one player would draw fire from the enemy defenses while the other players would use rockets and grenades to take out the robot guns and push back the human guard.
I had always known that wolf packs coordinated complex attacks on large moose or elk, and that scientists would often wonder how it was they were able to communicate between one another to bring off such attacks.

In Red Orchestra and like games this kind of activity still happens a great deal, although not as often because the battlefield is usually more complex and people tend to use the microphone a great deal. But it does still take place, especially in tight confined zones. Obviously in sports this kind of ‘pack thought’ exists and teams that encourage and excel at it, do splendid things on the field.

Of course this kind of group thinking exists only with players who are not newbies. It reaches a perfect crescendo (like a perfect storm) only among players who well understand the aspects of the map and game. I believe this kind of pack thinking is a form of what scientists call Swarm Intelligence - http://www.sce.carleton.ca/netmanage/tony/swarm.html . What I find interesting about it in games is that we cannot even display much body language or any facial expressions – and yet somehow we tend to know what our fellow soldier standing by us plans to do. It’s like in an instant (usually during heavy firing, explosions, and action) we step into each other’s boots and say to ourselves, “If I was that guy I’d do ‘this and this’ to really help our situation. So I’ll join in this action and do ‘that and the other’ to complement his actions.” Yet it all happens in a second. If the player quickly fits in, you know in an instant: ‘this guy is an old timer’, but if he wanders off the path and trips up our operation, you think, ‘He’s green’.

Of course this kind of Pack Thought does not fair too good over a wide battlefield where everyone has lots of time and where the enemy is formed in a well tested team with excellent communications and leadership. But even in the best teams, simple Swarm Intelligence or Pack Thought must be fully available and operational if the team is to rise above other teams. The pack thought is used a lot in maps such as Snowy Forest.


Red Orchestra Commanders

A bad commander is one who, like a little Hitler, tries to micromanage everyone and everything, and who like Hitler, when this style of command fails (which it often does), begins to scream and abuse his fellow players through his microphone. When I am in that kind of team and we are facing another team, I usually know that we are going to lose.

Generally even a sloppy team led by a near idiot can beat an enemy who are a mere mob with no leadership coordination. I have seen this happen many times in Red Orchestra. Of course at times even a team-rabble can win when they have one practiced asymmetrical player who manages to upset the managed enemy team. Generally those kinds of individualistic players can only bring off such an upset if they can break apart the enemy’s planning with unpredictable asymmetrical attacks in his rear designed to delay or distract the enemy. This can sometimes allow one’s own rabble-team to gain the time to finally get it together and take the important objectives. But that outcome happens only rarely.

A well led team usually has a leader that I describe as ‘cool flowing water’. Cool under action, not a hot head. Flowing – always active – constantly inspecting the map, the clock’s time and the hot spots. And like water, he fills up the needs of his team in a smooth way. I am not such a guy since I avoid using the microphone and tend to work alone unless a good leader asks me to fill a need. But I have seen such men in the game (and also in real life). They are usually soft spoken, calm, and they don’t tend to micromanage – except in extraordinary situations where players need detailed instructions. They tend to simply make a lot of suggestions (the right ones) as they flag points in the battle that need coverage. They do at times become excited, with a concerned voice, in certain emergency situations, but they never go out of control and they tend to come through the battle sounding like ‘cool flowing water’. Such leaders are really like team servants. When I am in a team led by such a guy, I usually know that we are going to win.
 
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Good advice :)

Make your team mates want to do what you tell them by suggesting and leading by example, rather than demanding and hanging back. Attack and die often (while taking some out with you obviously) and you will find people end up following you (partly because they don't want to go in first). People need to see you doing what you're telling them or they will just ignore you. Don't insult people too much when the team isn't performing well.. that just makes the team perform even worse from my experience.
 
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From my own time in actual military service, I know very well the need for leading by example as well as keeping a cool head on the battlefield. Since I have met many good RO players who are also veterans, I know this sort of real-life experience translates into game terms quite easily.

However, when leading a group (my RO forte is in the tanking business) it's also important to know when to lead the charge and when to send Otto up front to be the point man, knowling full well he's probably going to be the first to revisit the spawn point in a few minutes.

I have been on teams where a self-appointed 'leader' does nothing but whine and moan about people getting wasted and how he 'needs' a particular person to drive for him or whatnot. It's a sure sign of a lack of confidence when a person assumes a mantle of command without having the guts and knowledge to make it stick. I, too, know in advance that team is in for a rough go of it when 'leaders' like that show up.

All in all, though, the most important thing is not to pass out assignments that you're not willing to perform yourself. If you know there are a number of T-34's laying in wait around that bend, you'd better be the first in and lead your men to death or victory- on the second or third attempt (if it comes to that) you might try a different attack plan, but always be prepared to carry out the plan yourself, and SHOW the men you're not afraid to face the enemy. It's one thing to hang back and engage at long range in a Tiger (realistic employment of the weapons system) but if you're in that Tiger leading a charge you'd better get your act together and be prepared to dogfight in that thing.
 
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RO is all about moral. If on the opening rush the Ruskies are mowed down by an MG they will play more caustiosly next spawn and thus give the defenders an even greater advantage. This sort of gives a negative "mob mentality" which is of course when everyone trys to find a scapegoat by yelling at the current sniper or squad leader, or of course yelling at everyone to get in the capzone every two minutes. Initial success or failure is what determines how the rest of the map will play out but a lot of times I see teams determined to tip the balance back in thier favour after losing an important objective. I wish people would have more patience and respect for the people around them because the game would definatly be more enjoyable. Please, instead of bullying people try and be more helpfull by giving enemy positions, forming a defense etc.
 
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I agree- team morale is a great 'force multiplier' on the field; as you noted, though, it can also be a negative multiplier as well for the team that is not doing so well at any given time.

This naturally leads me to reiterate my own and other posts regarding teamwork and the need to TALK to each other in-game, whether it be VOIP or texting- there's not much a of a worse morale-killer than to be out there with bullets flying overhead thinking you're all alone. (Even though we all KNOW it's a game, you can't deny those 'sweaty palms' moments happen now and again!)

OTOH if you're moving up on the enemy and everyone is up on the 'radio' calling out pertinent tactical information- and supporting each other- you can bet that team is going to fare much better than a team which does not.

As a tanker, this is especially important as without communication we're often somewhat isolated from each other by distance and 'the fog of war'; as a result we have our own heat-of-the-moment target misidentification episodes which might have been eliminated had the tanks (and individual crews) been talking and letting people know what's what. Lack of communication is one of the biggest morale-killers in the tanking business I believe; a good tank crew can almost sense what their partner on their flank is going to do but it sure helps to hear another voice out there!
 
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very good post, the one part you missed, is that even worse then an idiot of a commander, is a silent commander. haha, i myslef, have in some small cases, told the commander to evacuate the position because he was a total idiot. the funny thing is, most of the time i get that "do it now sonnyboy!" commander mood on, those bad commanders listen to me.

cant agree more with what you said about commanding, myself i really like giving general orders because thats all linclusive, so a guy leaving spawn will think "thats for me" just as much as a guy in the area who can move to the hotzone. sometimes i give special orders, but ONLY when you know that player is capable, you have to switch over to that player for just a moment, imagine your playing a fps game, your a good sniper, and your team commander comes on voip and asks you to move to position x and take out a machinegunner or sniper in y position on the third floor window. most people respond to that kind of a request really well and they move in a very determined manor to where you told them to, and they put that bullet through that sonofab****ches head. micromanaging is the worst thing a commander can do, first because noone likes being given exact orders, atleats in that manor, if you tell them to kill a certain person in a certain place, they feel like a special assasin, if you tell them to go left to a certain point and stop there, they probably just flipped the birdy at their screen and meant it for you. secondly NOBODY likes a commander thats on voip for more then 1/2 of the entire game, make your statements quick and to the point. NEVER insult teamates, even if they tked you, failed you , or whatever, encouragement is the only thing that will make them get back up and say "im going to do it right this time!", and when you ahve a team of 16 people thinking that, haha, the victory is yours.

another good thing to remember is to be a reminder to your men, if your loosing a certain position, then just quickly state you need some extra men to head over there and clear it out because the enemies are cappin it. and general commands help also, for example, at the begging of koitos i always say" ok guys, lets get the ammo, radio, then move on estates, and leave appts for last."
il pick that one command appart for you commanders to be out there, first theres "ok guys", not much psychology there, your just telling them that they are your fighting men, and also in a way, that your a team. "lets" really important here, noone likes modern war styles, they always like to think thier king is charging into battle with them this word lets them know, thier in this TOGETHER, and that bigdaddy commander is in there kicking Kraut @ss with you. "get the ammo, radio, then move on to estates and leave appts for last", this part here is pretty basic, its the order(duhh), BUT read it over again, if that was the WHOLE order you had got, instead of the one at the top, would you be more likely to obey those orders? or would the line on top get you moving for the team?
 
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i know it allll to well bro, thing is , if your lucky and got the commander position, its not that hard to fight your way outa that position. usualy when i play, i play to have fun, meaning i dont play to my maximum capabilities. when im the commander i know i have to lead my team, i have to be an example to all of them, and i have to be playing better then them. which is usualy the reason i stun even myself as i think about it at the end of the round when i realised how lucky i was to live through many of those fights where i should have died...;)

i honestly wish though, that there was a way that you could get a community certified badge in one of the classes, that way good mgers could kick out a noobie, and i could get commander from those guys who never throw smoke and have a -5 score as commander...
 
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This just shows what people can use and own PCs nowdays
speechless-smiley-037.gif
 
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I'm not sure about the "swarm mind" thing you talk about (i've seen it only once or twice), and I sure as hell have never seen it happen in TFC, hate those campers, sniper whores, uncoordinated teams and sentry gun whores :mad:

When I'm commander in RO, I'm always yelling at my teammates, but not in a bad fashion. I consistently use public chat to tell em that they're doing great and we can kick those Communist/Fascist pigs'/dogs' asses! My most used message is "We can take em, boys! Get some fire on them!" :D
 
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And if you 'just let it slip' on the public VOIP channel to "bring those other three tanks from West Field to flank South Lake NOW" or "get away from Forward North, artillery coming down in one minute" or something like that, it tends to throw the defense into a tailspin, too...

yah i use a line something like "pour the fire/hot lead on them guys!". i usualy use that when were in close combat and half the guys are holding back on their fire, its amazing, you say that , and all the sudden the fire kicks up and the enmyies just hide for their lives behind their cover..
 
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team work, team work, team work, and more team work! that is what it is all about. few good charismatic leaders open to suggestion and cooperative players and you can win. Just played Berezina last nite (overplayed to death on this map) and as the russians we were 11 to 17! and we still won because of tight defense and 100% total cooperation! they thought were we some clan but in reality we were just dedicated RO'ers who love the game.
 
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I definitely concur with DAT's post- even if a team isn't a regular 'unit' and finds themselves thrown together on a map, if they work together and COMMUNICATE oftentimes they'll be the winners. I've entered many games in which I knew absolutely no one, but it's pretty obvious when the radio chatter picks up who is who and what the level of play is. (Even when I don't even speak the predominant language, just watching cap zones light up and the kill notices by your team members can give you a snapshot of what kind of people you're in with.)

Of course, if you have a tight unit- or a group of 'regulars' who are a unit in all but name- smaller numbers aren't necessarily that bad. If you and your teammates are harder to find and kill, that's less points for the enemy to rack up; if you know how to work the map and the various cap zones and such your own teams' points will keep increasing over and above the opposition.
 
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much to answer

much to answer

first to http://www.redorchestragame.com/forum/member.php?u=9523. Something tells me you are one of those commanders I have enjoyed. Communications either happens or I start typing, "is my team a bunch of bots?" Cause I bail out of bot games. The need for communications depends on whether one is fighting against another solid team. If its just a rabble of assassins like me do little communicating - unless we have a good leader. In such a game a good assassin will manipulate the battle field by the order of his own attacks rather than through commands.

Example: Hedgehog - I noticed that over a week's period that everytime I played with Russians, the German teams all had caught on to the idea that a heavy defense on the eastern farm house - espesially using the open fields on its flank, could easily break up the Russian attacks. As a result the games all ended the same with the whole Russian team getting into the rut. They would make the mistake of trying to take the western farm first half heartedly but not gaining it - and the Germans resisted them with just enough men to slow it down. That farm is easy to take since it has heavy cover of plants and a ditch the leads right up to the back door. During this time the Germans would move a huge force into the eastern farm area. Then the Russians would try to take the eastern farm - but each time - by that time the Germans had already invested it with almost their whole force. That farm is approached from the Russian spawn through sparse vegetation, lots of open ground and even the ditch does not come near the house - you have to charge over its lip and run a fair ways to the house. (generally the Rusky should take the eastern farm first before the Germans can send their whole force there.)

The upshot was that the Russians then fell into the rut of making pointless charges over this open terrain into the face of almost the entire German force. This house has the best sniper posts and has a great flanking zone. Added with arty the Russian attacks (even those led by commanders) failed over and over. Since I usually play the Russians in this map I kind of quit for a while cause I was tired of the sloppy teams who played the Russians. But I decided to give it another try after a week. Again the same scenario! Like a Time Loop. I realized I had been going along with this mindless rut and so decided to manipulate the field.

Simple: assassin attack up the middle, take central farm from the light German force there. Hold it just long enough to draw the new German spawn to it, not expecting to actually hold it long. Sure enough the Russians (who ever that team was) were able to take West farm (finally) and soon, once I respawned, we took the east farm. Total time from start to finish: 4.5 minutes. Hmm, I thought...mayhaps a fluke. So I returned from time to time that week and did it repeately until the German teams finally gave up on the 'all out defense tactic of the eastern farm'. Luckily no German team realized that they should forget the western farm, place a medium force in central and continue massing at eastern.

The point is I did this repeatedly that week without ever communicating with my rabble teams - I just knew what the Germans would do, and then what my Russians (who were obviously different players during the week) would do once the Germans reacted to me.

Another example: Arad. Instead of cleaning out German infantry in north village - a Soviet assassin should just skip it and take south village. Just like a duck coming to water the German infantry will cease to concentrate on North and move to retake south.

FINAL: Team Fort Quake 1. The Swarm intelligence events took place in 1997. At that time the best teams and best players were there. By mid 97 they vanished to play other games and were replaced with what I called the 'crapy newbies'. It was like a swarm in itself - I had to play nurse maid and teach them everything. But by late 97 they were up to total spiff EXCEPT they still did not know the special tricks that the early guys had known and had taught me. But then came out Quake 2 and it had some team forts (BUT THEY WERE BUILT WRONG). During this period the quality of players still playing Quake 1 team fort dropped again through the bottom of the barrel!!! The team fort games I saw in Q2 never had a good layout and because the players could jump sky high most of the army looked like fleas who had huge shoulders and spent all their time hopping around like rabbits to avoid being shot. I only saw the good examples of swarm thinking in the first period part of Team Fort (first half of 97 - about to Sept. at most) with the creative players. By the late period I think all the better sort of humans had moved on to newer games, and then Quake 2. All that was left on Quake 1 boards were I suppose dreg people who played from library computers or really old machines that could not support Quake 2. Anyway I quit that in early 98. That was back when Mplayer game site was hot. (I think in the 90s talented people tended to show up to games early, while, shall we say LESS talented people, tended to show up after the game was on sale in stores. This effect is less seen in the 2000s. All I know is I started seeing massive cheating only AFTER the talented (dare I say SMART people) left.

I am beginning to see flows of talent in Red Orc too. Most of the really talented have been ****ed up into clans or quit. Let's just say I see less of the old talent than I used to. Of course there are old die hards and not all late comers now are dorks, like they were in the 90s. When I first got on line for example back in 92 only geeks and computer wizards were on BBS's and the level of talk was usually educated. In my area (Boulder, Colorado) only 17% of people owned a computer and in some areas like Oklahoma (where many of my kin come from) computers were a fangled thing that threatened mankind and explained why utility bills were full of typos (Oh, the computer did it). By 98 I noted that chat and general forums were no longer worth while. By 2000 the net had just become the local beer joint. Same happened on the Iraqi net where I used to chat as an American with those who wanted Saddam's overthrow. In 97 it was full of men who must have been rich, educated, and in many cases politically connected to Washington D.C. But by 2001 it was full of low educated Iraqi teens who wanted to slice one another's throats. That's another story....
 
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