Map layout suggestions for fun gameplay

[Swift-Brutal-Death]

This is kind of a "level design" section post, but, I think it's suitable here as well. I'm hoping for some drawings of map layouts, (blueprints if you will) that you think would be fun and challenging. I am compiling ideas for a new map and would welcome any input from you. There are a few things that are set in concrete for this project but still feel free to share ideas of what would make a smart fun layout for you, as I think all mappers could benefit from what the community thinks about what makes a fun challenging map. Explain parts of existing maps that you really enjoy and why, explain parts that piss you off. What do you wish there was more of or less of?

The following is a visual example of what I'm looking for. It by no means represents what I think would be a good map layout or what I would regard as talented Paint skills. : ) It does not represent what I have intended for the project either. It's just a simple example.

Spoiler!

================================================
This part down here is my specific project. If you want to assist with it's design these are the criteria it follow, this is a seperate request from the general one stated above.

*Sewer environment
*4 Traders MAX
*ZERO long sniper halls (if you want a tunnel play DOOM, there really are a lot of cool sewer pictures and concept art online that don't involve straight tunnels)
*Medium sized map (think about that of Manor map plus a little bit)

Feel free to PM with regards to this if you don't wish to post on here.

 

[Gartley]

Hmm, I can get in on this.

Well, I like multi levels, so that you've got high ground low ground etc. Like Flith's Cross.
But what I didn't like from that map though was how easy it was to get lost.

Often one or two 'arenas', like convergence points. So it's not all corridors or open spaces.

Natural hazards, but that are easily avoided, nothing worse then a trap you don't see.

show pieces, these are kind of points of interest (foundry's moving parts, biotics lab's specimen vats) So for a sewer you could have a vent/pipe to surface, with a fan to cast shadows, maybe dynamic. Water coming down, maybe down the hole.

Here's a pretty pic.

Spoiler!

I love collab projects ^^

 

[becoming-insane]

I just want to mention Filth's Cross. There's a special thing that I really like in that map - it's large, but there's a decent camping spot near every -or almost every- trader.
I think it might be fun if players were somehow forced to change spot after each wave. I know about mission maps, but it would be interesting if there were standard maps with such concept.

 

[Clowndoe]

I find the best maps are the ones that have more then one camping spots, but of which none are perfect. The map should be big and confusing enough that you can't always run to the same spot, like filths.

 

[ElSneakyPete]

I agree with having multi-level areas. I'm specifically thinking of certain areas of Waterworks and Bedlam. A good mix of tight spaces and open areas is also a bonus.

The main thing I'd suggest to avoid (if possible) is a camping spot where the whole team can face one direction and just fire away (Departed, Biohazard).

 

[Gartley]

No one else adding anything? That's a shame. Normally this forum is full of people with 'wonderful' ideas.

Contrast in lighting.

This can be used to control where players go.

Have well areas that are easy to defend, dark
And harder to defend, lighter.

I think Hospital Horrors or Bedlam is a good example of this.
But not pitch black, that's just inconvenient.

Pic included.

Spoiler!

 

[OCAdam]

Personally I'd prefer an extremely large map, but the only idea I could have that would make the map interestingly unique would be having where all trader doors open, but anyone who steps into a trader will cause that trader to permanently never reopen once the doors close again. So now people are forced to move to a different trader each time (or traders if the people went to different ones!) and also have no idea where a trader actually is if the marker goes to a perma closed one! Though that might just annoy some people instead.

Basically I'm only decent with maps that are basically extremely small (think DM-1v1 cut in 4 small) or very large (think ONS maps in general).

 

[Lacedaemonius]

Idk if it's just me (it probably is), but for all the time required to create a map it seems like just porting maps from UT04 or other UTII games and formatting them for KF would produce more enjoyable custom maps than having to build everything from scratch (such as the ONS maps OCadam mentioned)

 

[OCAdam]

I think it'd be kinda against the agreements in UT2004 to do map porting directly with the stock maps. However, the CBP2 maps might be okay since they are able to be DL'd by anyone without even needing UT2004. Once I finish DLing said maps, I'll look over them and see which ones would be quite nice for KF.

And as another note actually... porting the maps might be okay, but just as long as they aren't packed with the packages needed and actually would require users to have UT2004 and then copy the packages manually themselves. This way people can't get stuff they technically aren't supposed to. As for servers, people DL from the servers for those packages and then have access for the duration of the session. Though... smarter users would just get their cache and have the packages forever.

 

[Swift-Brutal-Death]

Idk if it's just me (it probably is), but for all the time required to create a map it seems like just porting maps from UT04 or other UTII games and formatting them for KF would produce more enjoyable custom maps than having to build everything from scratch (such as the ONS maps OCadam mentioned)

It is not just you that believes that. However I will never port anything. The time it takes is worth it in the end for me when I have completed something I am proud of, rather than just copy pasting and adding ammo/trader/weapons spawns/pathnodes. That anyone can do. A lot of these unreal ports look like garbage to me. Some are great, but only a few. The reason is that they were intended for UT2004 which is not at all the same style of game. It's super fast paced player VS player with really open areas to snipe and bright lighting everywhere. That hardly fits the theme of co-op, dark, cramped zombie killing. This is just my opinion on it. People enjoy Killing Floor for different things and I recognize that. I make maps that I want to play on. My exceptions to this have been Bigsunrise and hellgate. They were catered towards a different style of play. They are intended for servers that support 16-32 players. I dig those servers when they are balanced out.

@Gartley. Thanks for the ideas. You are spot on about easy camping spot being dark and harder ones being brighter. I'll keep your thoughts in mind as the map progresses. And yeah, I am kind of surprised that more people aren't jumping up to draw some map blueprint ideas. Even just for fun. I guess a lot of the community that doesn't add any custom content really does just prefer to type out their opinion's on other people's work rather than take time to make something other people will judge. (this sounds harsh but hopefully it will push a couple of you guys to do something ; ) )

 

[Gartley]

Idk if it's just me (it probably is), but for all the time required to create a map it seems like just porting maps from UT04 or other UTII games and formatting them for KF would produce more enjoyable custom maps than having to build everything from scratch (such as the ONS maps OCadam mentioned)

Ewww. Those that only port shouldn't be called mappers or level designers. Porting is the hight of lazyness. A well made map custom designed from scratch with time and effort spent on it is far better than any port could be.

@SBD If you'd like any custom statics or props let me know. I'd be happy to knock up a few things for you.

 

[Lacedaemonius]

I think it'd be kinda against the agreements in UT2004 to do map porting directly with the stock maps. However, the CBP2 maps might be okay since they are able to be DL'd by anyone without even needing UT2004. Once I finish DLing said maps, I'll look over them and see which ones would be quite nice for KF.

And as another note actually... porting the maps might be okay, but just as long as they aren't packed with the packages needed and actually would require users to have UT2004 and then copy the packages manually themselves. This way people can't get stuff they technically aren't supposed to. As for servers, people DL from the servers for those packages and then have access for the duration of the session. Though... smarter users would just get their cache and have the packages forever.

http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=75477
http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=72215
I just played Hyperlast2 yesterday with some people who'd never even HEARD of UT04. There were also ports of Deck-16 and Deck-17 (Deck-16's HOT neighbor) but I couldn't find a bloody mirror for server hosts to save my life.

Ewww. Those that only port shouldn't be called mappers or level designers. Porting is the hight of lazyness. A well made map custom designed from scratch with time and effort spent on it is far better than any port could be.

@SBD If you'd like any custom statics or props let me know. I'd be happy to knock up a few things for you.

Large image, spoiler'd for your convenience!

Spoiler!

Replace "3DS games" with "maps made from scratch", "phone games" with "maps ported from other games", and convert all monetary amounts to lengths of time at $1 = 1 hour and I think this summarizes my point perfectly.

I've noticed in the overwhelming majority of custom maps I've played in KF are incredibly close to playable, but lack the final layer of polish necessary, be it pathfinding, bugfixes, or even just plain aesthetics. For example, let's take 3 maps that fall short, for different reasons: Blockparty, Marshes, and Lighthouse. As best I can tell these are all the final versions of their various maps.

Blockparty for aesthetics reasons, because the way it's structured it's incredibly difficult to tell what paths are actually part of the map and what are just dead ends, combined with the aggressive specimen spawns invariably lead to getting trapped at a unopenable prop door indistinguishable from the smattering of functional doors in wave 2-3 and summarily slaughtered times too many before I gave up on it.

Marshes (which I believe was ported from KFmod), is so very enjoyable, to simply refer to is as "fun" would be a damn near insult, but is plagued by optimization issues that render it flat out unplayable the second you look at a mob of specimens (read: 3 or 4). Small porting issues, like low hanging trees that function as solid objects for fired rounds do nothing help.

Lighthouse is well polished, well optimized, has full and pretty interiors, and even a cool color filter near the water. Nevertheless, the specimens have pathfinding issues that get them stuck at the highest part of the lighthouse, which means that whoever goes to kill them won't be able to make it 2/3 trader locations.

I could go on and on about maps with great potential broken by niggling issues, but that would bore you almost as much as it would bore me. My point is, it seems like mappers put such Heraclean effort into getting the basics of the map taken care of that by the time it actually starts to look like a map they're too exhausted and burnt out to finish it or even just play the map they worked so damn hard on. More than anything, I wish mappers in general weren't all so ****ing proud to force themselves to reinvent the wheel everytime they want to make something cool. I think it's worth pointing out that Swift-Brutal-Death is a notable exception, and I have just about every one of his maps that I could find in my server rotation (except Dreddstation, I could never get past Wave 2 before it crashed).

Spoiler!

Now that I've infuriated you all with my ignorance, this seems the perfect time to point out just how hilariously ignorant I really am: I've never mapped anything, the closest I've ever been was watching a friend make a map in goldsrc over livestream.

Spoiler inside of a spoiler.
Spoilerception

 

[Gartley]

@Lacedaemonius;

Point well made. Point well made.