Let's help TWI fix survivalist quickly.

[Supurdave]

With only about a week to go and survivalist in it's current (unaltered by feedback) state. I would like us to give quick and easy suggestions that could be coded easily to bring survivalist up to a passable level before release.

I'll start by giving my plan (scaled back from my earlier suggestions due to time).
Perk passives seem good
(I've heard that it doesn't effect max armour which seems like a bug, and that swats damage to armour first skill was included which shouldn't be)

level 5 skills: tactical reload (all weapons) OR 15% damage bonus
level 10 skills: medic training (as is plus medic grenade) OR 5 extra carry weight (only)
level 15 skills: melee training (as is) OR 20% extra ammo (only)
level 20 skills: 20% reduced recoil and 10% increased headshot damage OR increased explosive radius and fire damage (20%?)
level 25 skills: OK as is

I think this fix would be very easy to do within a week as it just shifts around things that are already there (mostly) and would make this perk much more fun and less restrictive.

I hope to hear other good suggestions from this great community.

TWI please give this some consideration.

 

[matrimelee]

Give him unique weapons and stats, otherwise it's a completely useless and boring class.

Changing numbers on reload speed, coil reduction and damage won't do the trick.

 

[Supurdave]

Give him unique weapons and stats, otherwise it's a completely useless and boring class.

Changing numbers on reload speed, coil reduction and damage won't do the trick.

Every weapon is a survivalist weapon so he doesn't need weapons specific to him. If you can give some examples for "unique stats" that could be useful input. Versatility can make survivalist useful and boring is highly subjective (lots of people enjoy playing this class). Thanks for the input.

 

[TheUndying]

More "Zedsplosion", less "Tactical Reload".
UNIQUE skills that actually aid fun or the team. Current survivalist is a bland soloist with no redeeming features.

 

[2Clicks]

More "Zedsplosion", less "Tactical Reload".
UNIQUE skills that actually aid fun or the team. Current survivalist is a bland soloist with no redeeming features.

I dont think you are speaking for everyone here. I as I do for every new class, go back to playing normal and grind my levels. Its actually quite fun to restart and play the game at easier levels. You notice alot of good things about the game. As for the perk... Im not sure adding Zedsplosion would actually aid fun for the team (not sure what exactly you mean btw) but I dont think the Survivalist should necessarily be a "fun" perk to play in terms of high damage or lots of explosions. Its a survivalist and so its primary attributes should be to outlast other classes imo.

1. Looking at the tree as it stands the reload works really well for noob level play, which should be on Normal diff maps.

2. Im not sure that melee vs medic for the 2nd tier skills is that much of a good thing. But Ive yet to play on Hard level games. Thats were I would hope it would make a difference. Perhaps giving likewise level medics potential assistance in terms of healing... but tbh I cant see it. I suspect its actually an "option" to give teams that dont necessarily want to play a medic the option of having a damage dealer with emergency "first-aider" if I can use that terminology.

3. The introduction of add. ammo or grenades at 3rd tier just when youre about to enter suicidal looks a solid cast if you ask me. Ive noticed that not having the specialized ammo cap. buff for certain weapon will have you running out of ammo whatever two weapons you choose to carry. Well alot likely anyways.

4. Now we reach the superstars of the survivalist skills. And just in time too for those of us about to enter HoE.

5. Im not a big fan of lvl 25 skills anyway. Unless you have players who know what they are doing (+ a mando) to increase initiation of zed time and then extend it - I dont see it as a major part of my gameplay. But that aside only Lockdown seems to be worth it to me. Maybe on HoE when the chips are down and youve lost a few players for mando, gs or SWAT weapon carrying survivalist it will make a big difference to shoot 3x faster but or more likely those players with single shot weapons it will be a bigger boon - but then if you have a singleshot weapon youll probably have a small amount of ammo in your mag or clip and this is where having tactical reload may actually give players the ability to make any sort of beneficial use of Madman.

Just my inane ramblings ofc. Feel free to ignore!

....and Im not a fan of this particular implementation for Survivalist. Though conceptually it makes a fair bit of sense. I guess it depends on whether you want to have another demo type perk with explosions galore or whether you want a surv. perk thats alittle more close to its definition type. Thats for ppl to let TW know I guess.

 

[TheUndying]

1. IF this perk is all about picking whatever you want, why would you split up the reload options? What if I want to be a mixture of Commando and Demo? Why do I have so sacrifice 50% of my loadout to status quo?
2. Believe me when I tell you that those two skills are both terrible in their own way. Healing potency is too low to actually make a difference when things get tight, combine that with the slower recharge than normal medics have and you're in for a treat. Zerker skills are just as bad, because if things go tits-up, you'll end up being grabbed every other step while trying to run away. I DO like the fact that you're running faster with your knife equipped, nice flashback to KF1 there.
3. Those two might actually be halfway decent if they didn't force you to either pick a DoT grenade or a molotov cocktail. Why not HE grenades? Freeze nades? Why this limitation and why in this very skill section?
4. Zedsplosion is halfway decent (if nothing special) and quite hilarious to spray down legions of Zeds, but 25% more AoE dmg with explosives basically forces you to pick a demo weapon. And if you don't like Zedsplosion then you're **** out of luck my friend because you either knock down tons of Zeds, making aiming for your teammates so much worse or you pick a skill that doesn't help with your current loadout.
5. Madman with Medic weapons (and basically all weapons) is quite good, combined with the broken zed time reload it's something I'd keep. Didn't like the Incap though, just a personal preference.

All in all, there's some potential to behold, but it's so cluttered, split up and schizophrenic - I will bet my sweet back that creating a new perk like Martial Artist would have been less work, given how much rework this...thing here needs to be viable on higher difficulties.

 

[Rattler]

What if I want to be a mixture of Commando and Demo?

Exactly. I'll rather play Demo combined with the M16+M203 rather than a class thats not either demo or commando.

 

[2Clicks]

Ill just start by saying I dont necessarily disagree with what you are saying.... Im playing devils advocate.

1. IF this perk is all about picking whatever you want, why would you split up the reload options? What if I want to be a mixture of Commando and Demo? Why do I have so sacrifice 50% of my loadout to status quo?
2. Believe me when I tell you that those two skills are both terrible in their own way. Healing potency is too low to actually make a difference when things get tight, combine that with the slower recharge than normal medics have and you're in for a treat. Zerker skills are just as bad, because if things go tits-up, you'll end up being grabbed every other step while trying to run away. I DO like the fact that you're running faster with your knife equipped, nice flashback to KF1 there.
3. Those two might actually be halfway decent if they didn't force you to either pick a DoT grenade or a molotov cocktail. Why not HE grenades? Freeze nades? Why this limitation and why in this very skill section?
4. Zedsplosion is halfway decent (if nothing special) and quite hilarious to spray down legions of Zeds, but 25% more AoE dmg with explosives basically forces you to pick a demo weapon. And if you don't like Zedsplosion then you're **** out of luck my friend because you either knock down tons of Zeds, making aiming for your teammates so much worse or you pick a skill that doesn't help with your current loadout.
5. Madman with Medic weapons (and basically all weapons) is quite good, combined with the broken zed time reload it's something I'd keep. Didn't like the Incap though, just a personal preference.

All in all, there's some potential to behold, but it's so cluttered, split up and schizophrenic - I will bet my sweet back that creating a new perk like Martial Artist would have been less work, given how much rework this...thing here needs to be viable on higher difficulties.

1. Well you cant. Remember the posts of ppl warning of OP skill selection possibilities.....? Im sure you understand the concept of tradeoff - this is what this is. Very likely I imagine bc the devs dont want all powerful survivalist players. So no high-rate fire second wpn w/ a high damage explosive first wpn. At least not with the bonuses.

2. Well Im not disagreeing but theyre not meant to be a direct replacement of either. And being a tier 2 (10) skill not really that useful when going into HoE. But rather a ++ to an existing medic and in the case of zerk, a good stepping stone for low ammo cap. at the next skill tier choice.

3. Limitation seems to be the running theme of the perk. You have 2 choices but not necessarily the ones you want. That I can sympathise with. Personally I would prefer staying with starting nades but there you. Maybe this would be one of the options were ALL possible variants could be listed. Or at least one of each distinct class: frost, stun, HE, Frag, Healing or fire. Maybe make the current window scroll for more than one option - but Im guessing this wont be something the devs entertain. However an alternative could be to have two sets of nade types per option but the 2nd set only becomes active when the option for 10 nades is chosen. Maybe.

4. Again Im not fan of the options but they seem to follow the first perk options - high damage & slow rof vs low damage & high-rate of file. seems like a good compromise despite the lack of "flair" in the actual implementation. I would like to see a tweak but until Ive played through hoe games at level 25 I cant be sure.

Well the perk is supposed to be the poor mans perk. The one who isnt trained in anything in particular but should be able to do enough to be somewhat of additional "support" to the party given most situations. I agree it seems rather lacklustre but in another way seems like a challenge to play. And thats probably the main and only draw atm. At least for me.

 

[TheUndying]

Played a few rounds of Sui and HoE and everyone I asked said they only play the perk for the achievements and that it's useless. Apart from the Nade Launcher which is now the favorite weapon ingame. So many explosions..

But by god, do those folks barely scratch the paint of Scrakes or the bosses. Ended up all on my own - granted, the heals from one Survi were a good help, but his damage was so lackluster, it even annoyed himself. You need a "real" perk in order to deal with them quickly and saying it's the "poor mans perk" is not a compliment, nor is it welcome to me and many other people. I want to know the guys next to me being specialists, trained and experienced in the things they're supposed to be doing - Demo deals with large crowds and FPs, Sharpie picks off Scrakes, Support puts in extra damage, etcetc.
I don't wanna roll the dice on surviving the round or failing because this certain Survi chose to go against trash while we already have enough trash killers but not big zed killers.

 

[2Clicks]

Played a few rounds of Sui and HoE and everyone I asked said they only play the perk for the achievements and that it's useless. Apart from the Nade Launcher which is now the favorite weapon ingame. So many explosions..

But by god, do those folks barely scratch the paint of Scrakes or the bosses. Ended up all on my own - granted, the heals from one Survi were a good help, but his damage was so lackluster, it even annoyed himself. You need a "real" perk in order to deal with them quickly and saying it's the "poor mans perk" is not a compliment, nor is it welcome to me and many other people. I want to know the guys next to me being specialists, trained and experienced in the things they're supposed to be doing - Demo deals with large crowds and FPs, Sharpie picks off Scrakes, Support puts in extra damage, etcetc.
I don't wanna roll the dice on surviving the round or failing because this certain Survi chose to go against trash while we already have enough trash killers but not big zed killers.

The players are the ones that are supposed to be skilled and experienced. Not the perks! If this perk is supposed to be skilled in anything then its staying alive in a zed filled post-apocalypse setting. And not be a superman. And so by rights its skills should reflect that. Maybe thats not the perk you want but that seems to be the perk we have.

As for not having enough big zed killers.... depends how you look at it!? Anyone can kill a scrake or fp if working as a team. Killing them solo is another question (but I guess you are talking purely about HoE and survivalists that have attained rank 25 - or rather those that have skipped the fun part and not bothered with the level grind.)

If you play as a team you wont need to 'roll the dice' you just have to survive long enough to outdamage the biggies and trash collectively during the waves. If anything I tend to look at the surv. right now as the handicapped perk that presents a harder challenge for the game.

 

[Padawanchichi]

Overall excellent feedback, I'm surprised to see that kind of feedback with the recent sea of suggestions that are more and more silly (like a dropdown list to choose the grenade in the perk list...).

I've heard that it doesn't effect max armour which seems like a bug, and that swats damage to armour first skill was included which shouldn't be.

I hope the expected effect is to increase max armor and give starting armor (as per the SWAT minus being 50% as efficient).

level 5 skills: tactical reload (all weapons) OR 15% damage bonus

To bring the passives on par with that of other classes (25% against 15% for the survivalist) I would bring the damage value down to 10%. That way other class would still be more powerfull in their field since most got damage% boost in their perks.

level 10 skills: medic training (as is plus medic grenade) OR 5 extra carry weight (only)

I still think that opposing a medic role against a berzerker role is a better approach. So I would leave the options already in the beta.
I think that the 25% speed is a bit too much, I would bring it on par with the other classes (berserker with skirmisher, medic with combattant doctor and gunsligner passive) at a value of 20%.

level 15 skills: melee training (as is) OR 20% extra ammo (only)

As above I would stick with TW choice with one exception. Weapon harness : the increased weight capacity has always been a support thing so I would replace the molotov with frag grenades.

level 20 skills: 20% reduced recoil and 10% increased headshot damage OR increased explosive radius and fire damage (20%?)

I like the first option you proposed a lot, I would maybe give only 10% damage increase and 20% more afterburn damage.

I think those tweaks are reasonnable to implement, if not for the release, a first balance patch.

 

[Radio4ctive]

Here's my suggestion:

Passives:

Global damage resistance 40% on lvl 25
Bonus weapon damage 30% on lvl 25
25% more health on lvl 25
25% more armor on lvl 25

Skills:

Level 5
Tactical Training- All weapons reload speed increased by 30% and weapon switch speed by 40%
Combat Training- All ranged weapons deal 15% more damage and 20% icreased magazine size

Level 10
Medic Training- Increase the potency of all your healing by 20% and decrease the cooldown of your syringe and healing darts by 50%
Martial Artist(hehe)- When using melee weapons increased damage by 15% and 25% more movment and attack speed

Level 15
Ammo Vest- Carry up to 20% more ammo for all your weapons plus additional granade and your grenades are swapped out for Healing Grenades
Weapon Harness- Increase carrying capacity by 5, you start game with additional random T1 weapon and your grenades are swapped out for Molotov cocktails

Level 20
Bullseye - 50% more bullet penetration and 20% increased headshot damage
Destroyer- Increase area of effect of all explosives by 30% and fire weapons range by 25%

Level 25
Fast Hands- Durning ZED time you reload and switch weapons in real time
Rampage- During ZED time all your weapons shoot 3x faster, additionaly melee attacks in real time

Passives(Optional):

Survivalist Instinct- (Activated by holding flashlight button) For 10 seconds you can see throught the walls big zeds and bosses positions, you can see also ammo packs, armor vests and weapons lying on the ground (30 sec. coldown)

New item:

Survivalist Tool Kit- Once per round you can drop survivalist tool kit, you and your teammates can grab package.
Effect: Instantly regenarate 20 hp, 15 armor, gives 15% ammo, additionaly recharge syringe and flashlight battery.

 

[callumg1988]

Great discussion, good to see civil debate Radioactive I like your tweaks, they make a lot of sense. I guess I see what 2Clicks is saying though in terms of not making the perk OP, probably something many including myself are forgetting about. But Radioactive splitting range or melee with fire and explosions I quite like, then you can potentially BE a zerk with a nade launcher, or a commando with a flamethrower (potentially). With the good ideas perk probably can be something quite unique for those who rely more on skill than perk bonuses!

 

[slayer123]

After playing it abit more I'm kinda torn on it, its fun but not a serious perk.The skills definitely need alot of attention and the passives need boosting, it is virtually useless against the boss compared to other perks on hell on earth. But I must say having a scar, pulveriser and cross bow is soo much fun but being burnt to death with your own molotov is bull****.
I just hope tripwire reads these ideas and implement s something more workable into the perk passives and skills tree.

 

[Kothre]

This is going to sound pessimistic, but nuke the whole class. The entire idea is bad. Just scrap it from the game and make a different tenth perk in a couple months.

 

[callumg1988]

Maybe its the kind of perk though that can actually benefit those who's good skills can capitalise on a broader play style. For e.g, I consider myself a very competent beserker, but when I play Commando or SS (or even SWAT, support, demo, medic etc), I am quite competent also. This although lacking hard hitting dedicated perk power, like a full zerk or full mando could mean maybe for someone like me who is good with gun AND blade, zerk skill for parrying and blocking etc could make up for damage resistance of a zerk but give you more options to off perk a scar or something like that and not let team down. The biggest concern I have (I haven't played new perk yet) is the firebug/demo 'lean' in skill selections. Maybe extra damage with rifles and melee weapons, plus quicker reloading would give all the power you need in a skilled player? Just a few thoughts to put out there

 

[2Clicks]

The biggest concern I have (I haven't played new perk yet) is the firebug/demo 'lean' in skill selections. Maybe extra damage with rifles and melee weapons, plus quicker reloading would give all the power you need in a skilled player? Just a few thoughts to put out there

Wouldnt that make the survivlist 'too' much like those perks? The overall design seems to have been made to encapsulate facets from every (read most) perks currently in the game. Perhaps though the designers of this perk havent got the right mix just yet. Some ppl like some of the stuff, others want much broader options. Given the range of options anything is possible - as long as they dont give it an insta kill weapon/skill/passive combo that some perks have like the Sharp or Demo and to some extent; SWAT and GS. And here lies its biggest problem - most players want one.

 

[WeretigerRei]

Ill just start by saying I dont necessarily disagree with what you are saying.... Im playing devils advocate.



1. Well you cant. Remember the posts of ppl warning of OP skill selection possibilities.....? Im sure you understand the concept of tradeoff - this is what this is. Very likely I imagine bc the devs dont want all powerful survivalist players. So no high-rate fire second wpn w/ a high damage explosive first wpn. At least not with the bonuses.

2. Well Im not disagreeing but theyre not meant to be a direct replacement of either. And being a tier 2 (10) skill not really that useful when going into HoE. But rather a ++ to an existing medic and in the case of zerk, a good stepping stone for low ammo cap. at the next skill tier choice.

3. Limitation seems to be the running theme of the perk. You have 2 choices but not necessarily the ones you want. That I can sympathise with. Personally I would prefer staying with starting nades but there you. Maybe this would be one of the options were ALL possible variants could be listed. Or at least one of each distinct class: frost, stun, HE, Frag, Healing or fire. Maybe make the current window scroll for more than one option - but Im guessing this wont be something the devs entertain. However an alternative could be to have two sets of nade types per option but the 2nd set only becomes active when the option for 10 nades is chosen. Maybe.

4. Again Im not fan of the options but they seem to follow the first perk options - high damage & slow rof vs low damage & high-rate of file. seems like a good compromise despite the lack of "flair" in the actual implementation. I would like to see a tweak but until Ive played through hoe games at level 25 I cant be sure.

Well the perk is supposed to be the poor mans perk. The one who isnt trained in anything in particular but should be able to do enough to be somewhat of additional "support" to the party given most situations. I agree it seems rather lacklustre but in another way seems like a challenge to play. And thats probably the main and only draw atm. At least for me.

Its not that its limiting that is the problem is that it is TOO limiting. As it is the Survivalist has a preference toward certain play styles with certain weapons favored over others depending on the skills you choose.



Want to reload faster with Demo and Gunslinger Weapons? Too bad...
For a class that is supposed to be about options and picking different weapons the Level 5 skills sure are limiting. They dont even affect Medic, Firebug, and Berserker weapons (Yes there are two berserker weapons that need reloading.) I know why they didnt put medic weapons in there since medics have both "heavy and "Light" but they should have just limited by weapon class or give a reload skill that helps all weapons.


Did you start out with a weapon your skill choices dont even affect? Too bad...
Why do I have to roll the dice twice? Random tier 1 weapons are already a roll of the dice and I am fine with that but now I also have to guess which skill to use whenever I start a round? Why? Worse case scenario i get C&B or the Crovel and based on my guesses neither my Level 5 or my Level 10 skills affect said weapon. All other classes do not have this problem.



Want that Commando nade that you had before Level 15? Too bad...
Why did you give me something then take it away when neither of the Level 15 nades are nessecarily better than the others? Again locking into certain play styles. We should be able to choose from any nade in the trader menu.



Want a skill that affects Firebug weapons before Level 15? Too bad...
Boy is it bad to use Firebug weapons other than the Dragons Breath. Not only do i get a measly 15% extra damage with these at Level 25 but I chew through all my increased body armor by setting myself on fire. The only skills helping me are Ammo Vest, Weapon Harness, Zedspolsion and the medic skill to heal me when Ive burned up all my armor.



I encourage everyone including Tripwire to check out my suggestions I made a while back when the class was announced. I dont think these suggestions make the Survivalist too OP and at the same time they add some unique things to him as well.

http://forums.tripwireinteractive.c...tions-ae/2276694-survivalist-perk-suggestions

 

[2Clicks]

Its not that its limiting that is the problem is that it is TOO limiting. As it is the Survivalist has a preference toward certain play styles with certain weapons favored over others depending on the skills you choose.

It doesnt look from this particular design that TW even considered opening up "all" options. Because thats most likely they would have to do to keep everyone happy!

Ppl seem to want different things from this perk that that means having to open up all possible options from existing perks and allowing players to choose which ones they assign at each subsequent skill tier. Perhaps having trade-off depending on what skills you do pick, others may not be selectable down the line. Though you can chop and change as you want in game.

That sounds like a fat lot of work to do and given whats already been said about deadlines (mostly on the steam forums) I doubt that it could have been done in time. So TW made their 1st stab at it. The 'Unwanted' perk as its turned out to be.

Personally I would be happy if they changed only a few things. Most of which has already been suggested by you (and others.) But I dont want to see the perk constrained to someone elses idea of what it should be if thats going to be the only trade-off down the line. I dont envy the designer(s) of this feature if they are constrained as they are todate.

 

[TheUndying]

The "Unnecessary" is what I would call it.

Other than that I second every word WeretigerRei wrote. This perk is a pushover.