s5yn3t;n2314377 said:
i dont get paid to think up alternatives. and 99% the time, firebugs are terribads and get people killed.
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Least used skills thread for suggestion purposes
- Thread starter s5yn3t
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i dont get paid to think up alternatives. and 99% the time, firebugs are terribads and get people killed.
Buzzkillinton;n2314381 said:
well don't participate then, if you will continue being so negative about it.
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Denks;n2314337 said:
I couldnt disagree more. 90% the time, the last player standing is zerk. being able to passively regen HP while kiting things (faster speed) has saved MANY a game.
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s5yn3t;n2314384 said:
sorry snowflake. i dont know what the best alternatives are..but i know which skills are sub-par.
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missing_trigger;n2314369 said:
Alternatively, high capacity magazines for the boomstick could be changed so it carries extra ammunition for the gun. It has 67 rounds when you're at 25 and have the resupply pack selected, so it could be increased to 80 or 87?
For firebug, I will say that the extra fuel load is good with Ground Fire, since you're burning extra gas to produce it and using that in conjunction with direct fire damage to burn stuff. The DIY flamethrower will run out in about 6 seconds if you spray nonstop with that 50 ounces of gas.
Lastly, no one wants to hear about your hate speech towards Pyros Buzz. You clearly pulled that percentage out of your ***.
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Buzzkillinton;n2314371 said:
Playing good firebug requires you to know more mechanics than most perks. Most perks are just about getting as many headshots as possible, and using CQ grenades. Firebug, like berserker requires you to know when to stumble, when to attack, CDs for different stumbles/incaps/panics and etc. They are great against big zeds but most people will die quick to bigs. It works great with almost any perk on a lane.
If with a perk like SS, you only focus on clearing out the trash that gets close. If with a perk about body damage like demo, then its about doing that, but also controlling big zeds that come close. It isnt all about landing the groundfire, when you are trying to kill a few fps/sc without letting them take a swing at your team.
Firebug is the only perk where you have to constantly think of how not to get your team killed, as much as how to kill the zeds coming at you. A new FB will really ruin your day hahaha.
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ZED Time skills that let you attack in near normal speed will always dwarf the other options. ZED Time slows attack speed to around 20% normal, so if you attack at normal speed during ZED time you are essentially doing 500% damage. It's really hard to make another skill that can compete with that, without it being something like "When ZED Time triggers all zeds on your screen instantly explode." The only perk that doesn't always choose a near real time level 25 skill is Demo.
By comparison, classes that don't have this as a level 25 choice always feel like their level 25 choices pales in comparison.
I don't like a lot of the skills. Most don't change the way the class is played, and just boost damage, movement speed, ammo capacity, etc. by some small amount. Also, some skills like Dead Eye for SS are both bad and boring, but because they allow you to cross a threshold and one shot a SC in 6p HoE they are picked a lot, but it doesn't change the fact that they suck.
By comparison, classes that don't have this as a level 25 choice always feel like their level 25 choices pales in comparison.
I don't like a lot of the skills. Most don't change the way the class is played, and just boost damage, movement speed, ammo capacity, etc. by some small amount. Also, some skills like Dead Eye for SS are both bad and boring, but because they allow you to cross a threshold and one shot a SC in 6p HoE they are picked a lot, but it doesn't change the fact that they suck.
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yeh, now to think of it support back in the day had AOE team boost skill during zed time. If i remember correctly it was the one that boosted damage output for everyone in the zone.
So why not bring it back but amped.
for example: bringing its old dmg bonus back but increased than it used to be.
Or have it dynamic where dmg increase is multiplied by the amount of players in the zone. So if you are support with only 1 teammate on your side, it will count as 2x multiplier and more with more people in the circle... ofc when you are alone it will only count as 1x, basically like in rack em up where it only add's 10% more dmg.
And 2nd bonus to it: every player in the zone has increased penetration value of 300%.
so with that mix you'd have an interesting alternative of either being a one somewhat slugish killing machine, or be an actually support with another skill that can cater to the group.
So why not bring it back but amped.
for example: bringing its old dmg bonus back but increased than it used to be.
Or have it dynamic where dmg increase is multiplied by the amount of players in the zone. So if you are support with only 1 teammate on your side, it will count as 2x multiplier and more with more people in the circle... ofc when you are alone it will only count as 1x, basically like in rack em up where it only add's 10% more dmg.
And 2nd bonus to it: every player in the zone has increased penetration value of 300%.
so with that mix you'd have an interesting alternative of either being a one somewhat slugish killing machine, or be an actually support with another skill that can cater to the group.
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oldmidget;n2314404 said:
So much this. Whenever I do Pyro, my main focus is killing all the trash so when the big stuff shows up, the little guys aren't in the way to mess up the kill techniques. If a big zed outguns you that's one thing, but most people get killed because they get boxed in by trash. I never use the MWG because its a bit sucky and the damage is less than that of the flamethrower. Sure, it can push back big zeds, but lighting them on fire also buys a few seconds to retreat while they run around in a circle. And I only ever do that when someone needs help.
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Dr. Lethal;n2314457 said:
One thing witht he MWG, is its really come into its own since QPs were added. A few nights ago i was able to keep like 6-8 QPs from hitting anyone on my team due to how easy they are to push back. and if it is ever a map with a sheer drop (like temple revived or long forgotten) you can just push the boss/bigs into a pit, or off a cliff for an ezpz kill haha. people always laugh at that.
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SWAT's Battery Ram should be replaced entirely. It's basically a choice between picking a skill that's always useful (shoot in real time + infinite ammo) against one that works only on an extremely specific situation.
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thresher3253;n2314473 said:
It's not as bad you make it out to be. Except for the ramming portion. But the real-time movement is quite useful. It lets you escape a trouble spot, heal the teammate across the map, or just position yourself in front of enemies you wouldn't even have a line of sight on if you couldn't move.
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Only perks I don't use extensively are commando and survivalist, so I don't know much about those two.
Support: I use increased reload, salvo, tight choke, resupply, and barrage. I never used high capacity mags because it's quite easy to work with the number of shots in all the shotguns. 8-20 is enough to kill most of a horde if you aim well. Fortitude I believe is only for supports that have issues dying. Increased damage will always beat it. I did run increased pen when I was lower in the skill set, but once you get around 20, armor piercing shot becomes redundant. There's also no need for concussion rounds because shotguns have enough stumble power with them. Plus, you get extra ammo by selecting resupply pack along with being a team player. Lastly, just like armor piercing shot, there's no need for increased penetration, since you get 500% of it at 25. Might as well put all those rounds to use and kill that scrake during zed time.
Berserker: Both lvl 5 skills are good and offer different playstyles. I still pick skirmisher because zerks need to run fast and the added health regen is great. It's also great when paired with vampire, so you'll get 6 health back while killing stuff instead of 2. Butcher is fine if you don't need to worry about your health much, but vampire is great overall, even when there's a medic around. He can't keep his thumb on you all the time. For 15...Parry easily beats out resistance. I explained this in another topic about zerk skills, and while parry offers resistance for 10 seconds, it offers a better combo than overall resistance. At 25, you'll get a 35% damage reduction with resistance, while parry offers 55% plus 60% more damage dealt for 10 seconds. The fact you can chain parries means you'll be hard to kill and kill zeds a lot easier for a good minute. At 20, it's a toss up depending on what weapons you use, but I believe smash is better since you'll be using that a lot to put down most zeds. At 25, zerker rage is good with dreadnaught, but Spartan beats it out big time because instilling Chaos Control during zed time is way more effective than letting zeds retreat.
Demo: Both beginner skills are good, though once you get high enough in the tree, that extra damage doesn't seem like the best idea with how slow the demo reloads. 50% more damage sounds good at 25, but with how fast zeds are moving in HoE...I just want to put more rounds down range. Plus, stumbling zeds around is fun to watch. Same goes for extra rounds. 21 shots for an RPG sometimes isn't enough. Also, I found out the high impact rounds only kick in during the initial impact. It does NOTHING for the explosive effect. Also, it generally takes 3 rockets to off a FP, so those extra rounds come in handy. The competition between the lvl 15 skills is a joke. Who in their right mind would take a skill that LOWERS damage dealt over a skill that makes sirens a non-issue? Even the increased blast radius isn't a saving throw. Lvl 20 is the same deal. If you have good aim, you can down scrakes in one or two hits with the RPG. It also makes the M79 blow almost any non-big zed if you strike the head. Now, at 25 I have seen a few demos pick mad bomber over nuke, but nuke does higher damage overall and lasts after zed time with its poison cloud. Also, Nuke is much less likely to kill you than mad bomber if you get swarmed.
Pyro: Since I always go after trash instead of the big zeds, I take extra fuel, ground fire, zed shrapnel, firestorm, and pyromaniac. That 35% damage increase would be good in some cases, but I'd rather have 100 fuel points than 50 for that DIY flamethrower (plus 200 for the real flamethrower is a plus). BBQ IMO is a bit pointless since most zeds running into your flames will die off quickly, and ground fire can drop any trash zed easily. Napalm is also pointless because zeds will be grouped together anyways when you set them alight, and zed shrapnel not only does damage when a zed explodes, it can also knock down the biggest zeds. Heat Wave is good if you intend to go after the big zeds, but I'd rather keep any zeds from getting close. More room to breathe = more ground fire. Also, more damage at zed time looks pretty nice, but not burning any fuel is more advantageous in the long run.
Gunslinger: My aim with pistols sucks at times so I tend to hip fire a lot. I think steady is good if you're accurate, but quick draw helps when switching weapons and for hip firing. Plus, you get a headstart at moving quickly. And because I hip fire a lot, bone breaker for that extra damage is good. I find line em up to be pointless since GS is a mobile sniper and i'd prefer to reload quickly, especially if I have to deal with a big zed. Skullcracker is really good when taking on big zeds, so you can outrun that angry FP and keep nailing him. I tried knock em down once, and it only worked well on scrakes. Tried it on FP....not so much...
25 is good on both sides. Firing quicker so you can kill something is good, but not wasting the small ammunition pool that pistols have is even better IMO. Also, if I fire to quick I'll end up missing shots, and whirlwind lets me keep my aim steady so I can keep hitting those heads.
Sniper: Both sides at the start are decent, and it depends on whether you need to move around a lot. If the team has a solid front line, I'll pick sniper, but if I gotta move, marksmen is better. For lvl 10, regardless of the skills, I pick stability because there's always a chance to crouch and fire. Ballistic shock I think is only meant for big zeds, and even then it's kinda random to use. I pick tact reload with all perks, so theres that. At 20, I think it depends on what weapon you're using. If you're using the railgun, then dead eye is better, but always prepared is better when using the M14. At 25, Assassin with the railgun can one shot scrakes, and the stumble effect doesn't always work.
SWAT: Heavy armor is good throughout the game, since you don't have to worry about your health until your armor runs out. Tact reload for all perks at 10, and then I use ammo vest, because SMGs have a rather abysmal ammo pool. Suppression rounds is pointless since zeds stumble quite a bit when hit by SMGs. 20 is a toss between slowing zeds or having more armor. Might depend on whether you're getting hit a lot, but I chose more armor since that's more time I don't have to worry about my health. Never tried cripple, though if they changed it so where head shots were most effective than the legs, I'd pick that. At 25...just about everyone and their grandma will pick rapid assault. It makes killing those big zeds or horde much easier. Battering ram is very situational and mainly for funnies. I always laugh when I see a SWAT knock down a raging FP in zed time.
Medic: All left, with only tact reload for the right. Left skills are for team play, right is for solo. I don't know why some medics pick poison rounds in a team setting, when your buddies could be dealing extra damage. Same goes for increased medic weapon damage. Compared to other perks weapons, medic guns are rather abysmal in dealing damage. Only exceptions are when they're used by another perk and the highest 3 weapons. Your team would be better off getting some damage resistance than you trying to be a battle medic. Also, I don't pick resilience because you get health as you heal others. I don't get why some medics pick that and drop to 50 just to get the most out of it. If one siren screams at you, you're gonna be dead very soon, and it's better to have 125 that you can keep up very easily by doing your job. At 25, airborne agent is way better since if you get swarmed, trash zeds will get poisoned and die quickly. Zedative is only useful in solo play.
Support: I use increased reload, salvo, tight choke, resupply, and barrage. I never used high capacity mags because it's quite easy to work with the number of shots in all the shotguns. 8-20 is enough to kill most of a horde if you aim well. Fortitude I believe is only for supports that have issues dying. Increased damage will always beat it. I did run increased pen when I was lower in the skill set, but once you get around 20, armor piercing shot becomes redundant. There's also no need for concussion rounds because shotguns have enough stumble power with them. Plus, you get extra ammo by selecting resupply pack along with being a team player. Lastly, just like armor piercing shot, there's no need for increased penetration, since you get 500% of it at 25. Might as well put all those rounds to use and kill that scrake during zed time.
Berserker: Both lvl 5 skills are good and offer different playstyles. I still pick skirmisher because zerks need to run fast and the added health regen is great. It's also great when paired with vampire, so you'll get 6 health back while killing stuff instead of 2. Butcher is fine if you don't need to worry about your health much, but vampire is great overall, even when there's a medic around. He can't keep his thumb on you all the time. For 15...Parry easily beats out resistance. I explained this in another topic about zerk skills, and while parry offers resistance for 10 seconds, it offers a better combo than overall resistance. At 25, you'll get a 35% damage reduction with resistance, while parry offers 55% plus 60% more damage dealt for 10 seconds. The fact you can chain parries means you'll be hard to kill and kill zeds a lot easier for a good minute. At 20, it's a toss up depending on what weapons you use, but I believe smash is better since you'll be using that a lot to put down most zeds. At 25, zerker rage is good with dreadnaught, but Spartan beats it out big time because instilling Chaos Control during zed time is way more effective than letting zeds retreat.
Demo: Both beginner skills are good, though once you get high enough in the tree, that extra damage doesn't seem like the best idea with how slow the demo reloads. 50% more damage sounds good at 25, but with how fast zeds are moving in HoE...I just want to put more rounds down range. Plus, stumbling zeds around is fun to watch. Same goes for extra rounds. 21 shots for an RPG sometimes isn't enough. Also, I found out the high impact rounds only kick in during the initial impact. It does NOTHING for the explosive effect. Also, it generally takes 3 rockets to off a FP, so those extra rounds come in handy. The competition between the lvl 15 skills is a joke. Who in their right mind would take a skill that LOWERS damage dealt over a skill that makes sirens a non-issue? Even the increased blast radius isn't a saving throw. Lvl 20 is the same deal. If you have good aim, you can down scrakes in one or two hits with the RPG. It also makes the M79 blow almost any non-big zed if you strike the head. Now, at 25 I have seen a few demos pick mad bomber over nuke, but nuke does higher damage overall and lasts after zed time with its poison cloud. Also, Nuke is much less likely to kill you than mad bomber if you get swarmed.
Pyro: Since I always go after trash instead of the big zeds, I take extra fuel, ground fire, zed shrapnel, firestorm, and pyromaniac. That 35% damage increase would be good in some cases, but I'd rather have 100 fuel points than 50 for that DIY flamethrower (plus 200 for the real flamethrower is a plus). BBQ IMO is a bit pointless since most zeds running into your flames will die off quickly, and ground fire can drop any trash zed easily. Napalm is also pointless because zeds will be grouped together anyways when you set them alight, and zed shrapnel not only does damage when a zed explodes, it can also knock down the biggest zeds. Heat Wave is good if you intend to go after the big zeds, but I'd rather keep any zeds from getting close. More room to breathe = more ground fire. Also, more damage at zed time looks pretty nice, but not burning any fuel is more advantageous in the long run.
Gunslinger: My aim with pistols sucks at times so I tend to hip fire a lot. I think steady is good if you're accurate, but quick draw helps when switching weapons and for hip firing. Plus, you get a headstart at moving quickly. And because I hip fire a lot, bone breaker for that extra damage is good. I find line em up to be pointless since GS is a mobile sniper and i'd prefer to reload quickly, especially if I have to deal with a big zed. Skullcracker is really good when taking on big zeds, so you can outrun that angry FP and keep nailing him. I tried knock em down once, and it only worked well on scrakes. Tried it on FP....not so much...
25 is good on both sides. Firing quicker so you can kill something is good, but not wasting the small ammunition pool that pistols have is even better IMO. Also, if I fire to quick I'll end up missing shots, and whirlwind lets me keep my aim steady so I can keep hitting those heads.
Sniper: Both sides at the start are decent, and it depends on whether you need to move around a lot. If the team has a solid front line, I'll pick sniper, but if I gotta move, marksmen is better. For lvl 10, regardless of the skills, I pick stability because there's always a chance to crouch and fire. Ballistic shock I think is only meant for big zeds, and even then it's kinda random to use. I pick tact reload with all perks, so theres that. At 20, I think it depends on what weapon you're using. If you're using the railgun, then dead eye is better, but always prepared is better when using the M14. At 25, Assassin with the railgun can one shot scrakes, and the stumble effect doesn't always work.
SWAT: Heavy armor is good throughout the game, since you don't have to worry about your health until your armor runs out. Tact reload for all perks at 10, and then I use ammo vest, because SMGs have a rather abysmal ammo pool. Suppression rounds is pointless since zeds stumble quite a bit when hit by SMGs. 20 is a toss between slowing zeds or having more armor. Might depend on whether you're getting hit a lot, but I chose more armor since that's more time I don't have to worry about my health. Never tried cripple, though if they changed it so where head shots were most effective than the legs, I'd pick that. At 25...just about everyone and their grandma will pick rapid assault. It makes killing those big zeds or horde much easier. Battering ram is very situational and mainly for funnies. I always laugh when I see a SWAT knock down a raging FP in zed time.
Medic: All left, with only tact reload for the right. Left skills are for team play, right is for solo. I don't know why some medics pick poison rounds in a team setting, when your buddies could be dealing extra damage. Same goes for increased medic weapon damage. Compared to other perks weapons, medic guns are rather abysmal in dealing damage. Only exceptions are when they're used by another perk and the highest 3 weapons. Your team would be better off getting some damage resistance than you trying to be a battle medic. Also, I don't pick resilience because you get health as you heal others. I don't get why some medics pick that and drop to 50 just to get the most out of it. If one siren screams at you, you're gonna be dead very soon, and it's better to have 125 that you can keep up very easily by doing your job. At 25, airborne agent is way better since if you get swarmed, trash zeds will get poisoned and die quickly. Zedative is only useful in solo play.
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Well, they are specific situations and you still can make use of rapid assault. If you're cornered you can use the real time rof to line up headshots very quickly and easily save a teammate by killing the troublesome zeds near him, without expending ammo.Denks;n2314481 said:
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Dr. Lethal;n2314483 said:
disagree. the 2 classes most likely to end up as last man standing (thus saving the game) are zerks and medics. the right side lvl 5 skill works wonders keeping you alive vs bosses..big zeds or when you are last man.
acidic rounds are only useful as a means of crowd control..on bosses it is not useful at all.
also, agreed, zedative is just pointless. combat surgeon has no place in a team setting UNLESS you are running 2 medics. with 2 medics you can either have 1 full healer and 1 combat medic..or you can run 2 combat medics.
sometimes I'll suggest splitting the team into 2 groups of 3 (HOE), each having a medic. by splitting the team you reduce the zed pressure because all of the zeds are not spawning in the same area. so it reduces the healing pressure on each group vs 1 guy trying to heal 5 others with all the zeds in a small area.
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Buzzkillinton;n2314533 said:
Yet, if there's two of you left alive, you'll be keeping yourself very healthy by healing the zerker with symbiotic health. I even survived as the last man standing with the left skill quite a few times, which comes down to not letting yourself get swarmed and the fact you can heal yourself more readily than other perks.
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Dr. Lethal;n2314540 said:
Between grenades and the mega syringe i do t have much issue staying alive as medic. But I see so many medics using the left side skill get demolished on hoe. Both skills are good, but I prefer the right side one because it saves you in that oh sht moment and has far more use if vs bosses and also if you end up as LMS.
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oldmidget;n2314592 said:
for the love of god, you can crap gold too..talkabout the probable odds, not whether it is somehow mathematically impossible.
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Buzzkillinton;n2314603 said:
Thanks for agreeing. I dont have any access to statistics that show that, although TWI does keep track of all that stuff so the devs would know best.
I dont think making it so every perk has the same survivability as last man standing makes sense. Alot of it is many perks require you to take certain skills, to fill certain roles in the group, which may or may not help as last man standing. Its all about what you want to be able to handle, vs not. Every perk is viable enough to handle last 50zeds Depending on which perk options you choose(good example is sharpshooter lvl 5 skills aid/hurt in solo survivability.) If your team gets ganked early on and youre up against 250 zeds then you really shouldnt have great odds for that.
Just keep your eye on the dream of pulling off a dank clutch. It will happen. If every perk becomes as easy to use in solo as a very good breserker, that would be terribly boring. A amazing clutch can inspire a team to try and not play like crap. I see it happen pretty often for all sorts of perks.
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