Killing Floor 2: Summer Update Beta 1 is Now Live for PC!
- Thread starter Kittenmittens
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Well yeah, but how would you justify to have a SWAT competiting with a Sharpie for example? One would obviously get kills much quicker. I believe it could work with a "damage" threshold rather than a "kills" one, but even then... The medic and zerk could very well have their kills "stolen" by other perks with more DPS or range.
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That's where balancing and beta-testing come into play. Each perk, and each weapon for each perk, should have its own damage* threshold so all perks have a chance (so for example, a Commando using a FN FAL should have a different damage threshold than a Sharpshooter with the same weapon). If not, why have different perks at all?
As a solo perk in a coop game, Survivalist shouldn't exist in the first place. Why give it a dedicated Weekly? That won't promote knowledge of the synergies between perks, or cooperation.
*Note that it should be applied damage, taking into account the RoF of the weapon modified by the perk bonuses.
As a solo perk in a coop game, Survivalist shouldn't exist in the first place. Why give it a dedicated Weekly? That won't promote knowledge of the synergies between perks, or cooperation.
*Note that it should be applied damage, taking into account the RoF of the weapon modified by the perk bonuses.
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After thinking about it a bit, another way to do it properly would have been to enforce a change perk along with the change of weapon. It would have promoted mastery of the game as a whole instead of the ability to play solo in a team.
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I have a problem, I had forgotten to activate "steam cloud" I played and I managed to do the weekly objective, but I did not receive the item, then I remembered that I had to activate it and I completed it again, but it does not give me the item anymore, is there any way to correct this? Will I get a chance when the event starts?
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But who even gives a **** anymore? Certainly not Tripwire, they aren't even the ones making the updates anymore. It would make sense to say all that if the game just released, but it's now seven years old. We've had the upgrade system, crossperk weapons, and overall so many guns added that remove every and any weakness for ALL perks that the perk dynamic is now long gone.
And even if the game was still finely tuned for every perk to shine... What's wrong with having ONE mode that forces you to play one of them? I'm sure nobody played "Boom" as a berserker due to the risk of dying at any time. Or that Poundamonium was the demo's time to shine. It's perfectly normal.
Hell, think of a mod like "Randomizer" for Team Fortress 2, that shuffles the cards for everyone. What's the point of having nine classes if anyone can get a rocket launcher, a minigun or a sniper rifle? Well, it's just ONE mod. You can either play it for shits and giggles or pretend it doesn't exist. And that's the exact same for "Arsenal Ascent".
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I'm confused over what you're saying here, both with the suggestion and the example provided.
If what you're getting at with the example is that, say, Commando with the FAL shouldn't do as much damage as the Sharpshooter with the FAL (to stop it from being a dedicated role-breaking weapon on Commando), I agree completely.
Crossperks in general outside of a handful of Medic weapons are kind of problematic like that. The easiest way to fix the FAL would've been something like "give it AssaultRifle damage while Commando is holding it instead of Rifle damage" and then boom, you'd have a sidegrade to the SCAR just like in KF1.
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HRG Head Hunter needs more impact damage and less "wave damage", amount of the stacks should be increased to 7 (from current 3), with a reduced wave and head size increment per stack. This way it would be worth pumping all 7 rounds in before releasing a wave. The stun power should increase itself according to how many stacks are on ZED. You might not even change the fact its wave does only body damage, just make it a decent DMR by giving more primary damage. Enlarged head is a bonus on its own. Its description should also tell about a max limit of stacks.
Sentinel could use some simple mechanic to make it more effective against medium and big ZEDs. For example, when it actively fires at ZED give it a counter to track time or ammo spent. If 2-3 seconds passed or 20-30 rounds are wasted (preferably) on this ZED and it is still alive, rearrange its aim point from torso to the head. Its explosive damage should have no falloff at all as it already explodes above the ground, far away from ZED's pivot point.
Shrink Ray should probably have not been able to kill ZEDs just by shrinking. Pump its primary damage to a decent value, extra damage upon shrinking is a feature on its own. Perhaps give it a secondary fire option that would fire exact same beam (may be of a different color) that would act like a current primary. But instead of magazine reload, let it secondary attack to recharge on its own like a healing dart. Make its recharge really slow and increase ZED's resistance (currently it takes ~50 ammo to shrink-kill SC or a FP) to a values where it would take about 2 minutes worth of recharge to be able to kill a single Fleshpound by shrink-killing (i.e. by bypassing their health pool).
HRG Crossboom could use more impact damage, surprisingly impact damage is affected by High Impact Rounds but it is still nothing (10 vs 13) . Minigun is still meh IMO, it needs more ammo per mag at a reduced damage per bullet but increased incap power for player to shoot longer without reloading. Another suggestion to make it more bullet-spitting is to reduce its damage by 3 times but instead of 1 bullet at time make it spawn 3 for 1 ammo, add more spread but also more incap powers including knockdown if enough bullets delivered.
For Gun Game, a player should probably be given full ammo for their gun when boss wave starts. Maybe give all players armor as well.
Sentinel could use some simple mechanic to make it more effective against medium and big ZEDs. For example, when it actively fires at ZED give it a counter to track time or ammo spent. If 2-3 seconds passed or 20-30 rounds are wasted (preferably) on this ZED and it is still alive, rearrange its aim point from torso to the head. Its explosive damage should have no falloff at all as it already explodes above the ground, far away from ZED's pivot point.
Shrink Ray should probably have not been able to kill ZEDs just by shrinking. Pump its primary damage to a decent value, extra damage upon shrinking is a feature on its own. Perhaps give it a secondary fire option that would fire exact same beam (may be of a different color) that would act like a current primary. But instead of magazine reload, let it secondary attack to recharge on its own like a healing dart. Make its recharge really slow and increase ZED's resistance (currently it takes ~50 ammo to shrink-kill SC or a FP) to a values where it would take about 2 minutes worth of recharge to be able to kill a single Fleshpound by shrink-killing (i.e. by bypassing their health pool).
HRG Crossboom could use more impact damage, surprisingly impact damage is affected by High Impact Rounds but it is still nothing (10 vs 13) . Minigun is still meh IMO, it needs more ammo per mag at a reduced damage per bullet but increased incap power for player to shoot longer without reloading. Another suggestion to make it more bullet-spitting is to reduce its damage by 3 times but instead of 1 bullet at time make it spawn 3 for 1 ammo, add more spread but also more incap powers including knockdown if enough bullets delivered.
For Gun Game, a player should probably be given full ammo for their gun when boss wave starts. Maybe give all players armor as well.
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Having an issue joining servers after updating to the beta. Sometimes I get the error "Connection Lost
Downloading package 'GFxUI' failed: Error opening file". It can happen with any server including official Tripwire ones. I've verified files in Steam and tried removing killingfloor2 folder in My Games.
Downloading package 'GFxUI' failed: Error opening file". It can happen with any server including official Tripwire ones. I've verified files in Steam and tried removing killingfloor2 folder in My Games.
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I dont get why the devs keep making HRG weapons(*1) for Demolitionist that are a lot worst than HRG Kaboomstick but weight more so you cant even pair them with RPG.
*1 - HRG Tommy Boom and HRG Crossboom
*1 - HRG Tommy Boom and HRG Crossboom
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You clearly haven't tried the Tommy Boom if you think it's not worth the money. It's arguably the Demo's most versatile weapon, and already a killing machine at T2.
Crossboom is underwhelming, everybody already said so. We can only hope they'll buff it by the time the update releases.
As for why they keep making HRG weapons... Well, because they decided the game still needed more updates? We "only" got ten perks after all... With usually four weapons added per update, it's normal that we're seeing all of them getting new stuff. And considering the Demo is becoming just like the Medic or the Firebug in that regard ("let's take that weapon, but make it EXPLOSIVE"), we're bound to see a whole lot more guns that do just that.
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Tommy Boom is a hitscan and would give the Demo trash-clearing at a distance that they probably don't want it to have with the RPG, because that could potentially be even better at covering weaknesses than the Kaboomstick.
Not to ignore the fact that the Kaboomstick was a mistake and should never have been allowed with the RPG to begin with, but I doubt that's going to change because of how many demo players it would upset.
The Crossboom is bad, though, that much I will attest to.
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"why the devs keep making HRG weapons(*1) for Demolitionist that are a lot worst than HRG Kaboomstick but weight more"
It's clear as day dude. Either you don't know how to express your idea or you're just unhappy that I pointed out your bull****. It doesn't matter really, because the Tommy Boom is pretty sick. And considering the RPG-7 is ubiquitous already, it's honestly pretty cool that Tripwire forces you to step out of your comfort zone if you want to try new things.
@OnionBubs : what's the matter with the kaboomstick? I find it ridiculously fun to use, and bloody effective too. It still melts anything up to Fleshpounds pretty well... There's really the Scrake that NEEDS the RPG-7 to be taken care of, hence its universal use.
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The user has been warned over behavior in the original message. This message has been edited.
No dude, what I wrote I cleary compare HRG Tommy Boom and HRG Crossboom to HRG Kaboomstick and said why in my opinion it doesnt make any sense to make HRG weapons for demo that are a lot worst than HRG Kaboomstick but weight more.
And btw I am not suggesting that every HRG demo weapon needs to be as good or better than HRG Kaboomstick, I just wish that HRG Tommy Boom and HRG Crossboom
weight was 6 kg instead of 7kg so you could at least pair them with RPG.
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Do you want the long story short, or...ah, hell with it.
*inhales deeply*
So let's go back to the early days of KF2. It's still Early Access and TWI has just brought out the first major update: Incinerate 'n' Detonate.
Demolitionist has released with four weapons: HX-25, C4, M79, and RPG. The perk is in a sorry state at the moment because Firebug completely outperforms it at its major role, bosses have 50% explosive resistance, and most things have trouble killing a Gorefast with splash damage. The only exception is what was at the time known as Zed-Time: Nuke. But leaving all that perk kit balance stuff aside, note that arsenal above: there are no good anti-trash weapons in the Demolitionist's starting arsenal.
This is a nod to KF1 as per its intended balancing situation: as a perk with extremely potent anti-HVT capabilities and group damage that does not have to aim, Demolitionist gives up the ability to deal with trash where self-defense is concerned, and is meant to rely on sticking near teammates that have competent anti-trash kits (namely Firebug, Commando will do in a pitch; SWAT also counts but wasn't released at the time).
Balancing a game where aim is the main dividing line between skilled and lesser-skilled players is a tricky act.
Please note that at the time Demolitionists could not carry both the M79 and the RPG at once; this would be patched in later because enough players finally complained that they gave in.
Right now, the best loadout for Demo is (RPG + C4). Keep that in mind because we're coming back to it.
Then, TWI announces their latest idea: crossperks. Some weapons will get bonuses on two perks, blah blah you know the drill. Demolitionist gets one in the form of the M16/M203, crossperking with the Commando, giving it something of an anti-trash weapon for self-defense. A rapid-fire hitscan weapon on Demolitionist.
It's not good. The damage per shot from the bullets is bad, the grenade is lacking, it still couldn't be carried with the RPG--but that's the whole point. If you want self-defense as Demo you have to give up a lot of your kit to have that capability, and ultimately you're going to be far less useful compared to a Demo running a dedicated anti-HVT loadout. The only end-game Demo weapon that could be run in tandem with this was the Seeker Six, which was absolutely, laughably awful for many years and was an easy mark for Demos getting kicked in pub servers since you automatically knew they wouldn't be doing their job.
See, TWI created the Demolitionist with the intent that the RPG and C4 combo was the de facto weapon for Demos doing their job. They knew it was incredibly strong and that it had to be a sticking point for perk balance because of how strong it is.
With the RPG, not only is it the primary disposal weapon for Fleshpounds, but it also has a specifically-coded 400% impact damage bonus against Scrakes. It's slow to fire and reload, holds one round at a time, and has virtually nothing in the way of self-defense outside of getting Zed-Time and firing a Nuke at your feet. Which does have its upsides but also everyone near you will hate your guts if they have to aim at anything.
To this day, the C4 remains underappreciated amongst the larger part of the playerbase, and TWI has some of the blame to take on that, because the game does an incredibly poor job of communicating C4's built-in strengths and weaknesses. But it also remains the ultimate combo tool for disposing of HVTs because of how well it works with Demo's kit and combos with the RPG to let you burst down FP and QP packs before they can even rage.
The years pass by, Demo gets a kit rework and has its general capabilities increased, but one thing remaining constant is that it never had competent self-defense weapons. The best thing Demo got was the addition of the Desert Eagle and .500 Magnum as a tagalong sidearm for the RPG + C4 combo, allowing it to instantly take out some trash enemies and Rioters although the gun has a low clip size and a long reload. So TWI had a decent enough track record on sticking to that point for balancing, even as non-generalist perks kept inching more and more towards generalist kits, which was a bad idea and one of the starting points for the game's decline.
Until the HRG concept started rearing its head. Many of the HRG weapons exist to fill gaps in a perk's given loadout. You can probably tell where this is headed.
It's by this point that TWI's vision for the perk started running against a growing discontent within the playerbase: most players don't like using the C4, and most players don't like being limited on options. (Which is a bad mindset to go into this game with since the entire concept from the beginning was about limited loadouts designated for specifc roles, but players have always had it.) And TWI had a choice to make at this juncture: appease the pub playerbase that doesn't care about balancing or perk roles, or stick to their guns on Demo's balancing?
They chose poorly.
Thus we got the HRG Kaboomstick, an on-perk version of one of the game's legendary weapons from the pre-2018-Summer-Sideshow days. The Kaboomstick is one of the shining examples of how not to balance for perk roles in the sense that it fills in literally every hole that Demolitionist has other than it not being hitscan, I guess:
- It fires what is effectively an upgraded HX-25 payload. A single shot from this will dispose of multiple trash Zeds and heavily damage anything it doesn't kill.
- It has two shots in the magazine, allowing the wielder to easily compensate for a missed shot or a non-kill shot on medium Zeds and the like, or to just blast away at more incoming trash
- The gun synergizes perfectly with the best weapons that make use of the LLLLL tree, which is Demo's meta skill tree
- Much like the Boomstick offperk pre-2018, the reload is fast enough that it doesn't require you to run the tac reload skills
- The reload can be reload-cancelled very nicely to allow spamming of both primary- and alt-fire
- The Kaboomstick has insane CC capability that no other Demolitionist weapon can lay claim to, namely the absurd knockback/gunhit values that mean anything that isn't killed will stagger
- The shotgun jump from the alt-fire gives Demo mobility that it is not supposed to have
- Dodge-tanking Fleshpounds, QPs, and bosses by shotgun-jumping is finally possible with this thing
- Allows Demos to body Scrakes by spamming the shotgun at chainsaw distance, since the stagger and shotgun jumps combined with the pure damage this thing puts out makes Scrake takedowns incredibly safe, if not necessarily efficient
- The gun works very nicely at close-to-medium distance, which is where Demo is supposed to be at their most vulnerable
- Because it reuses HX-25 damage coding, it is impossible for Demos to take damage from the Kaboomstick payload, making self-defense brainlessly easy
- This thing generates DoW, even if the DoW bug means half of them are just literally horrible graphical and audio nuisances without any tangible damage on Zeds
- It being a close-range weapon with splash damage that doesn't hurt the wielder means that the user doesn't have to worry about aim, positioning, or anything really
- Guess what: it weighs just enough for you to take the ultimate self-defense weapon on Demo with its strongest primary, the RPG, allowing Demos to run both close-range and distance-weapons full-time
- This thing is so strong that Survivalists take it every other round and they don't even get Nukes, it's just that good
- All of the above also leads to it being the ultimate kiting weapon for Demo
No, it's not necessarily Demo's best option because it removes some of Demo's pure counterplay against FPs and QPs, but since most players frankly aren't good enough to understand C4 combos, it's basically a free upgrade to the perk for probably 90% of Demo players, even where 6P HoE is concerned.
I'd like to see the pick rates on this thing because I would bet good money that most pub Demos take this thing. It absolutely dumbs down the perk and removes most of the risk it would otherwise have, and the game is worse off for having it. It's almost as broken as old Hemoclobber on Berserker.
The last thing this game needed was to make chaotic perks even safer bets than they already are, because where default difficulties are concerned, they can do most of what the precision perks can. Just safer and easier.
And "safe and easy" should not get bad players through a difficulty called "Hell on Earth."
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So, the deal is just that the Tommy Boom weights more as a T2 than the Kaboomstick as a T3? That's still a mild issue. That's the case for A LOT of guns, not all T4's are super heavy, and not all T2-T3 are light. I'd say that's part of the balancing factor : would you pay more for a stronger, lighter gun? Or save your money and go for something cheaper and heavier? Not only that, but the Kaboomstick is based around the... Boomstick. Which is another weapon that's super strong while being light. It's petty justification... But it could be the reason why they're both light guns.
In the case of the Tommy Boom vs Kaboomstick though, I concur that the latter is already so damn powerful that it could use a little nerf.
@OnionBubs : your lenghty explanation is well-thought-of and pretty accurate, but honestly... You could say that about a **** ton of weapons. The Kaboomstick doesn't have to take the blame when all perks have MULTIPLE weapons of the like. And not only that, but what you mention about the basic role of the Demo might hold true... But it was already a thing from the past back in KF1. There, the main balancing factor was how damn expensive everything was for the Demo. But you already got the M16/203. You already had the Seeker Six. You already had the RPG-7.
Also, do remember that Tripwire had the formidable idea of making the game playable solo... Which obviously means that it's a living hell to balance out perks for them to be efficient and useful in a team, but also effective on their own. Sure, the base kit of the Demo made him a pure nuker, rivaled only by the Sharpshooter... But it only worked if you had a team that knew what they were doing and could protect you efficiently. If you played alone, you were in for a world of hurt. And I guess that's also what drove them to make each perk progressively better and better. The medic got stronger, so did the zerk who knows has MULTIPLE ranged options. The GS has access to the G18... A fully automatic pistol, when he's supposed to be a more nimble Sharpie with less raw power.
In the end, sure, the Kaboomstick is the perfect case study. And me finding it stupidly enjoyable and fun doesn't change the fact it's just ludicrous. But it started before and it continued afterward. It ain't "special". It's been far too long since Tripwire forgot what they wanted to make with Killing Floor really. I might go as far as to mention the Survivalist's inclusion as the tipping point.
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The Demo perk doesn't need to have weapons constantly damage them. That's a bad design in gameplay mechanics. Is it realistic? No, but neither is weaponized zombie creations. No other perk has as many self damaging weapons. The closest is Firebug and when they reach their highest perk level they cannot damage themselves with their own fire. Should Demo get this? It would be nice.
While most of the weapons are based on real weapons, there are many that are not. I prefer the game being loony. If you want a more realistic harder game, go play something else.
I'm tired of HOE players constantly crying to nerf all weapons because they are so overpowered. Tripwire, just make a weekly where all weapons only do one point of damage specifically for them.
While most of the weapons are based on real weapons, there are many that are not. I prefer the game being loony. If you want a more realistic harder game, go play something else.
I'm tired of HOE players constantly crying to nerf all weapons because they are so overpowered. Tripwire, just make a weekly where all weapons only do one point of damage specifically for them.
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But only for lower difficulties.
Since we are at it, developers may want to implement just a single button "win a match", which, if pressed, immediately kills all zeds and ends the match.
So I am tired of casual players ruining any depth in this game through their requests.
Over the years the player base for this game has been remarkably stable. This is because this game has a high replayability value. The replayability value is a function of the game depth, which is to say how deep is the play, how different and detailed the risk/reward curve is and so on. That player base retention is, thus, a direct function of the game depth. The player base retention, at this point, is what brings the revenue to TWI.
Of course, all that depth with risk/reward goes out the window if the risk of self damage is completely removed like you suggest here. How about no.
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Oh dude... I had memories of having fun discussions with you. But that's honestly such a **** take.
Almost every explosive-users in video games have a risk of self-damage. Hell, in the harshest of them, you could very well kill yourself with ONE misplaced grenade. Killing Floor 2 is super lenient with the demo : not only by having a minimal distance required before detonation, but also by making you take very little damage from your own stuff in comparison to other games. Not to mention that the very basic premise of self-damage pretty much-invented rocket-jumping, an absolute must of any fast FPS. So where's the big issue exactly? I cannot even recall last time I killed myself in KF2, probably because it never happened.
There's also a difference between "realistic" and "likely, plausible". I don't know how different those words are in English, but they have very interesting nuances in French. We're never asking a game or movie to be realistic... If they were as realistic as possible, they would just mimick our world and our daily lives. Not very interesting is it? However, our beloved "suspension of disbelief" isn't just a catch-all term that allows us to believe everything thrown at us. In order to "suspend our disbelief", the world we're presented needs to stay plausible, to abide to its own rules. If it suddenly stops doing that, then we're pretty much ejected from the game/movie straight-up: it lied to us, and it reminded us that it's a mere fiction.
Now of course, KF2 isn't the best example because it's not that story-driven. And yet, it has its own rules too ! For the most part, it gave us hints that the game was set :
-In the near-future (hence why there's lots of labs, spaceships, high-tech weapons, clones and cyborgs)
-In a B-movie type of mood (implied by the characters and their banter, but also how the zeds look or simply by the ludicrousness of having a Microwave Gun or an Eviscerator that shoots saw blades)
But when you begin to throw guns that can inflate zeds or shrink them... We reach a point where even the B-movie tone can't really justify it. It's so cheesy, ridiculous even. That belongs to Z-movies, and it smashes to pieces the "unwillingly funny" idea of the game. Because that's another big thing regarding B-movies : they're supposed to be so bad they're good. They take themselves VERY seriously but end up trying too hard and becoming amusing. Here, a weapon that can give zeds' big heads... They're not even trying. And that's where the limit is reached.
Because don't get me wrong, I absolutely LOVE when developers get creative and come up with original ideas, and weapons are no stranger to that. Even late additions like the Thermite Bore or the Piranha Pistols are things I love, simply because the idea is pretty neat. But even then, having a mix of both (as the franchise always did) wouldn't hurt either. Because they also brought the G18 which is stupidly fun to use as a gung-ho Gunslinger. Or the FAMAS and it's tacticool use. You can't argue that realistic weapons can't be done well and be fun to use either.
As for the HOE mention... It's arguably the stupidest of the argument you present my friend. It's the HARDEST difficulty setting. What's the solution for players who mastered the game and are still wishing for a challenge? Prestiging ad vitam eternam and rushing to HoE with a low level perk? A game should let you relax and empty your mind after a long day at work, true. But it should also provide a challenge to people who wants that. Because there's nothing more rewarding that sweating your ass off to complete something, only to finally reach that goal. That's the reason the Souls games are so popular. But even without looking at such extreme examples... It's just not fun when you roll on the game without ever feeling threatened. Not understand that is knowing nothing about game design. Same as keeping weapons that are obviously unbalanced because "they're so damn good !". That's exactly the problem my dude.
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