Do you think spawn on SL is necessary now that we have vehicles?

[Siegertyp]

I got used to it, although at first I disliked it. Now I like the cohesion it creates. But I do not use it blindly, if the SL is too close to the enemy I prefer to walk.

When playing as SL, occasionally you can experience that members of your squad tell you to lie low and not to die. In RO1 I often got yelled at not to fight as much but to die fast and get more smoke. I usually ignored both calls.

To those who want it removed: if you don't like it, don't use it. If you don't want it to be used by other players, play mods where it is disabled. But please don't try to force your preferences on others who are happy with the game as it is.

 

[Jank]

I like spawn on SL and I want it to stay. I find that it is a very effective tool when used judiciously for increasing the odds of victory. I'm way past the point of it benefiting me points-wise, but I still prefer this role because I think SL1 is the single most important role on the team, if match victory is the goal. Reducing time to the fight is crucial to overrunning or defending objectives, though clearly care must be taken to avoid senseless spawn carnage.

 

[Arc_Shielder]

Arma and Project Reality (mod for BF2 - and with bigger scaled maps than RO2) have been successful for years. So it's definitely not unplayable to remove/not have the SL spawn.

Classic mode is the best, it's a shame that only one server is up from time to time.

 

[>F|R< Sarcinelli]

I hope you like dying, waiting to respawn and then running all the way back to the objective...over and over and over and over and over and over again.

If they took SLs away, the game would be unplayable.

Yep, it would be just like that awful game that nobody liked at all, what's the name...

Ah, Red Orchestra: Ostfront 41-45

 

[Singami]

I've covered this topic in my thread here, but in this thread I'll focus more on SLs.

We had a perfectly good game and we have a perfectly good gametype without SL and the gameplay in those was never "broken". If anything, killing someone with SL spawn turned off feels more rewarding, because you know he'll have to run all the way back, instead of just spawning ten meters away from the point in which he died.

People defending SL spawn might have a bit of a winner's bias. It feels good to win, especially by not doing anything actually impactful. SL sits in front of the objective in his little corner, spawns people into the point and wins the game this way, topping the team's scoreboard. On top of that, it doesn't feel unfair for the losing team, because they can't see or feel the SL's influence - he does everything to stay away from their vision, obviously, so they can't blame him, so the feature "feels fair".

But it isn't.

Since I've covered this already in my thread, I'll keep it brief here, but SL class has an enormous amount of potential for amazing features, leading his team and winning the game. But all of actual features available now and any features added in patches will be overshadowed by the spawning ability, because in comparison NOTHING can be better than it. Yes, even giving the SL an AK47 with autoaim wouldn't change a thing, a "good" SL would still cover in his little corner, spawning allies.

 

[>F|R< Sarcinelli]

I've covered this topic in my thread here, but in this thread I'll focus more on SLs.

We had a perfectly good game and we have a perfectly good gametype without SL and the gameplay in those was never "broken". If anything, killing someone with SL spawn turned off feels more rewarding, because you know he'll have to run all the way back, instead of just spawning ten meters away from the point in which he died.

People defending SL spawn might have a bit of a winner's bias. It feels good to win, especially by not doing anything actually impactful. SL sits in front of the objective in his little corner, spawns people into the point and wins the game this way, topping the team's scoreboard. On top of that, it doesn't feel unfair for the losing team, because they can't see or feel the SL's influence - he does everything to stay away from their vision, obviously, so they can't blame him, so the feature "feels fair".

But it isn't.

Since I've covered this already in my thread, I'll keep it brief here, but SL class has an enormous amount of potential for amazing features, leading his team and winning the game. But all of actual features available now and any features added in patches will be overshadowed by the spawning ability, because in comparison NOTHING can be better than it. Yes, even giving the SL an AK47 with autoaim wouldn't change a thing, a "good" SL would still cover in his little corner, spawning allies.

Nice post, I wish I could +rep you

 

[Außengeist_GER]

Spawn on SL was never necessary.

Same opinion here.

 

[>F|R< Sarcinelli]

[QUOTE=Au

 

[HellsJanitor]

I want to say it should be reduced, but every time I think of Bridges I realize how impossible it would be without it.

While I won't call the feature 100% necessary, I will say that the idea is.
There has to be some method to stimulate player movement and create actual charges/assaults. This is what most of the maps are based off of, and what is required based on how the game plays.

Argue if you want how everything in Classic was fine without it, but remember that Classic has been in 6ft under since the 3 months after it went live.

Yes, even giving the SL an AK47 with autoaim wouldn't change a thing, a "good" SL would still cover in his little corner, spawning allies.

Your definition of a 'good' SL and mine differ.
A 'good' SL will coordinate and guide the other players to where they need to go.
A 'good' SL will throw plenty of smoke to cover an advance and mark artillery when needed.
A 'good' SL thinks more about helping the team win than his own safety.

A 'bad' SL sits in the corner where he is secure and contributes nothing except acting as the mobile-spawn in DH.

 

[Game-Enthousiast]

To be honest i think the solution, giving people the option to play both ways is a fair compromise at this point in time.

The gaming landscape has drastically changed since the first RO came out and different kind of audiences have to be catered for.

BF2 was the last great BF game and had this feature as well as an essential mean of winning. On the other hand RO did not and RO is and always will be RO.

Therefore if you want to play RO, play classic, otherwise deal with a feature for different kinds of players.

 

[Proud_God]

I would replace spawn on SL with:
1) make your SL easy to locate (also for newbies)
2) Give a bonus when being (eg. less suppression) /dying in proximity of your SL (eg. shorter spawn time)

So instead of the current "spawn on SL + run away" tactics, you would see "meet up with squad and stick together" tactics.

 

[Singami]

I want to say it should be reduced, but every time I think of Bridges I realize how impossible it would be without it.

Then the map is imbalanced. From what I hear everyone is hating Bridges anyway.

While I won't call the feature 100% necessary, I will say that the idea is.
There has to be some method to stimulate player movement and create actual charges/assaults. This is what most of the maps are based off of, and what is required based on how the game plays.

This should be achieved with proper communication mechanics. If you'll look at the Japanese side - the side that probably requires the most coordination of banzai charges - you'll see that just "having SLs" solves nothing.
On the other hand, if you'll have a team of two SLs and TL that communicate properly and order their team, you can have an amazing game full of coordination.

Your definition of a 'good' SL and mine differ.
A 'good' SL will coordinate and guide the other players to where they need to go.
A 'good' SL will throw plenty of smoke to cover an advance and mark artillery when needed.
A 'good' SL thinks more about helping the team win than his own safety.

None of these actually require you to move your *** and do something else but spawn. Many positions allow you to throw the smoke just fine - the "gameplay" of SL is to find the safest spot, but be able to support your team.

 

[Nezzer]

I've learnt to accept spawn on SL, but I'm still not a big fan. I just wish TWI could make it a server option that doesn't turn the server unranked if turned off.

 

[O_Smurf]

I think the whole SL respawn thing should be reworked along with squad selection\function to create a more personal feeling to it.

 

[HellsJanitor]

Then the map is imbalanced. From what I hear everyone is hating Bridges anyway.

Except it isn't imbalanced, it's the way the map was built using the standing-system.
Not sure where you 'heard' bridges is disliked. When I went online today there were over 20 full servers running it.
And it's not just Bridges, it's a lot of the maps, even stock ones.
Don't count on Harley adding a brick-wall every 20ft in Bridges just because SL spawn was removed.

This should be achieved with proper communication mechanics. If you'll look at the Japanese side - the side that probably requires the most coordination of banzai charges - you'll see that just "having SLs" solves nothing.
On the other hand, if you'll have a team of two SLs and TL that communicate properly and order their team, you can have an amazing game full of coordination.

Okay, define what these proper communication mechanics should be then.
The gameplay is fast-paced, not everyone has microphones and a number of people won't respond to map-markers as you think they would.
I'd also argue that banzai-charges require the least communication aside from your TL screaming "BANZAI NOW!".
And before anyone here starts using ARMA as an example, you are comparing one of the SLOWEST shooters out there that is based around open-world gameplay and squad-simulation. RO2 is none of these.

None of these actually require you to move your *** and do something else but spawn. Many positions allow you to throw the smoke just fine - the "gameplay" of SL is to find the safest spot, but be able to support your team.

Again, I have no idea what game you have been playing where the SL isn't required to pick a tactic and advance first.
The whole "SL sits back behind cover and spawns people" argument doesn't hold water when the majority of the time this happens, the objectives get locked down and the team loses.
Have I seen a team win with one or two SLs doing this? Yes, I've been playing this game for years now. But it is rare unless SL1 (the biggest squad) has an able-and-willing leader that allows the other SLs to sit and do nothing while his squad charges first.

The majority of victories I have ever had included the TL coordinating arty and the SL's not sitting back behind cover as you think they do. The role is a lot more than that.

 

[Comrade Kaizer]

Spawn on squad leader should have instead been rally points in which can then be spawned from when enemies are not in the immediate proximity. Once the position of the rally point has been overrun, it would simply "despawn" on its own.

Squad leaders could have the ability to set down a rally point, but it has a cool down so there wouldn't be multiple simultaneous rally points around the map from the same squad leader.

Before putting it down, either it could do an enemy proximity check or be fixed to a certain range in meters from the closest available capture point (to simply provide the assurance that players still need to work to capture/defend an objective). Squad members who spawn on the rally point of their squad leader still net said squad leader their respective points.

This would fit within the parameters of the game's intended design with dynamic forward spawns yet still warrant some basic cohesion for players within the squad to work together for their shared goals if desired.

This would probably be difficult to do with RO2. Yet this would have been a much better design that fits the game's tactical edge. Just my two cents.

 

[Singami]

Except it isn't imbalanced, it's the way the map was built using the standing-system.

If it has to be balanced with an overpowered feature, then yes, it is, indeed, innately imbalanced.

Okay, define what these proper communication mechanics should be then.

A proper command wheel, which gives obvious clues to the squad members on what the should do. Not like now, when they see a small circle "move here" and the beginners wonder how the hell it appeared and what it means.

The gameplay is fast-paced, not everyone has microphones and a number of people won't respond to map-markers as you think they would.

It's good that not everyone has microphones, because I don't want to hear 32 people talking on my side - just SLs and TL, mostly.
People respond to the voice chat commands - telling them to attack or defend certain sides, explaining how they're covered by artillery and smoke, or that rushing on defense is a particularly bad idea. Marker system is just an addition to that - it should provide a visual clue to the audio clue.

Again, I have no idea what game you have been playing where the SL isn't required to pick a tactic and advance first.
The whole "SL sits back behind cover and spawns people" argument doesn't hold water when the majority of the time this happens, the objectives get locked down and the team loses.
Have I seen a team win with one or two SLs doing this? Yes, I've been playing this game for years now. But it is rare unless SL1 (the biggest squad) has an able-and-willing leader that allows the other SLs to sit and do nothing while his squad charges first.

The majority of victories I have ever had included the TL coordinating arty and the SL's not sitting back behind cover as you think they do. The role is a lot more than that.

Probably different than you, since my is called Red Orchestra 2, in which people shout at you if you die as an SL and/or spawn them right into enemy fire.
If you're talking about the offensive side, then yes, SL needs to move forward with his team, but he shouldn't put himself in risk like the other players. Losing an SL is a great disadvantage, you're going to spawn a wave or two back at the spawn point or on the way back and getting close to the objective again might be dangerous as well.
That's not to say SL never gets kills or sees action - I usually get kills, but they're mostly from enemies trying to flank the team, putting themselves in my sights.
Unless you're Japanese abusing Katana charge, there is literally nothing you get from playing SL like an assault class. There are no buffs you will provide while fighting on the front line with your men, you'll spawn your team right into the fray where they'll die disoriented and if you'll die, then you'll throw away that feature anyway. Smoke has a long throwing range and binoculars pretty much scream "use me at long range".
So you're giving me some fantasy-like examples, where SL does not camp his cover and believe me, I'd like to play this game too. But there's just no logic to hold your claim together.

 

[Siegertyp]

[...]
So you're giving me some fantasy-like examples, where SL does not camp his cover and believe me, I'd like to play this game too. But there's just no logic to hold your claim together.

Consider the possibility that you are playing it differently than others. Playing as SL on Winterwald for example I often had more kills than any other team member except the TL. You do not necessarily have to camp your cover to play SL properly.

 

[Jank]

There are basically two ways to properly play SL, imo. One is the fairy spawnmother role, and the other is the Rambo role.


Both are important, but picking the wrong way to play SL is to put your team at a disadvantage.


The advantage of playing fairy spawnmother is in reducing time-to-objective for large numbers of teammates. Undeniably good thing for the team... IF the squad in question has more than a handful of players. He can usually still use his smoke for advantage, but its risky to try to make artillery marks in this situation. SL holding back obviously means he usually doesn't get in the mix as much and contribute to the cap, but this disadvantage is outweighed by getting lots of teammates close, quickly.


The other way to play SL is to be Rambo. The advantage of playing an assault SL is that his smoke is more likely to be helpful since he has better visuals, he has good close-quarters weaponry, and he risks his neck to make good arty marks for the TL, which itself can be stunningly effective. He is also worth 1.5 men in the capzone, when weighing the balance of capzone control. But the double edge of that sword is that his respawn takes 1.5 tickets.


When deciding which way to play, take into account how many men are in your squad and what will give the team the overall better chances of victory. Small squad = Rambo, large squad = mobile spawnpoint.

 

[HellsJanitor]

If it has to be balanced with an overpowered feature, then yes, it is, indeed, innately imbalanced.

Okay, let's say we go with your logic and say that it is 'overbalanced' and SL Spawn gets removed and the maps become impossible.
You basically would have to throw Bridges as a map out the window. You cannot change it to where an attacking team that spawns miles from the objective is able to put up a necessary assault.

Same goes for Rakowice and Myshkova. They are designed and tuned to the current game, and would require overhauls to get them to work with SL spawn out the window with no alternative.

A proper command wheel, which gives obvious clues to the squad members on what the should do. Not like now, when they see a small circle "move here" and the beginners wonder how the hell it appeared and what it means.

Let me translate what your 'solution' here into a real-world scenario.
"Senator, how are we going to solve this tax deficit?"
Senator: "A bill"
"Okay, but who is going to pay more taxes in the bill?"
Senator: "A bill"

In other words, you have presented zilch for your solution.
What is a 'proper' command wheel? How is it different from the current one?
And by obvious, do you mean to add a bit of text to the "Go Here" icon so it says "Go Here NOW!"?

Probably different than you, since my is called Red Orchestra 2, in which people shout at you if you die as an SL and/or spawn them right into enemy fire.

People shout at you if you drop a grenade by their foot.
People shout at you if you get in their way.
People shout at you if you call arty on a bad position.

Kid, removing SL spawn isn't going to keep loud and obnoxious people from cursing you out. Maybe you are playing a different game if this is the case.

If you're talking about the offensive side, then yes, SL needs to move forward with his team, but he shouldn't put himself in risk like the other players.

Okay, but why not?
He has the SMG or Semi-Auto rifle in addition to a pistol.
He is better equipped and has smoke grenades and binoculars.
An SL is more than able to put himself at risk than almost anyone else.

That's not to say SL never gets kills or sees action - I usually get kills, but they're mostly from enemies trying to flank the team, putting themselves in my sights.

So... you basically use the same tactics you are against?

Unless you're Japanese abusing Katana charge, there is literally nothing you get from playing SL like an assault class. There are no buffs you will provide while fighting on the front line with your men, you'll spawn your team right into the fray where they'll die disoriented and if you'll die, then you'll throw away that feature anyway. Smoke has a long throwing range and binoculars pretty much scream "use me at long range".

I don't know why you insist on saying SLs are powerless to infiltrate a position or flank or enter CQC situations.
They are not. Even Riflemen are capable of clearing a building without an SMG. I know; I've seen it, I've done it.
News flash though: SLs have SMGs.

So you're giving me some fantasy-like examples, where SL does not camp his cover and believe me, I'd like to play this game too. But there's just no logic to hold your claim together.

Except these 'fantasy' examples are the way I play and many others do as well.
Your whole argument here is based on how You play the role.

Hey, if you want to play my 'fantasy' game, all you have to do is change how you play it.