Claymore & Scythe - Stagger when missed target

[Benjamin]

This may be applicable to other weapons too, particularly the axe and katana.

It's often been complained about that the berserker can just hold down primary fire and hold doorways without having to move, and as of yet the only real solutions we've had are making the weapons "semi-auto" or other, convoluted ideas, which would be a lot of work.

So I was thinking, how about a system whereby if you swing a heavy melee weapon and miss, it staggers the player a bit, preventing attacking for a second or so. Not only would it solve the camping problem but it'd also introduce some more skill to the berserker (and any others using melee weapons for that matter). The stagger length could depend on perk level.

Thoughts?

 

[Gartley]

I like this as it shouldn't effect skilled Berzerkers that kite and is a better option then calling for nerfing something into obsolescence.

Level 0 = 1.5 sec delay
Level 6 = .5 sec delay?

And I think the Axe, Claymore and Sycthe. The Katana is light enough to get away with it I'd say.

 

[EpharGy]

I like this as it shouldn't effect skilled Berzerkers that kite and is a better option then calling for nerfing something into obsolescence.

Level 0 = 1.5 sec delay
Level 6 = .5 sec delay?

And I think the Axe, Claymore and Sycthe. The Katana is light enough to get away with it I'd say.

oooh, if the stagger also made you move in a random direction for a moment, that would make a missed HS when Kiting an FP deadly!

 

[Splatpope]

that actually sounds brilliant

 

[C_Gibby]

Perfect thing to get the zerker in line a little more, I say.

 

[Merdic]

This is a great idea.
Maybe the stagger also reduces movement speed to the same as all the non-speedboost perks for slightly longer than the duration. It's not like you can keep up a sprint after stumbling from a sword throwing you off balance.

Like 0.5sec added onto gartley's delay for another attack, Level 6 being slowed down for 1 second but able to defend himself halfway through it.

 

[A Civil Engineer]

Stagger, yes, but stamina bar, no. Stagger would force zerks to aim better and thus use something called skill (durr hurr). As for the Stamina bar, I am strongly against this because no other class has a bar to fill up for something, or to drain for something. Other possible zerk nerfs, would be that the zerk's "anti-clot grab" bonus, only applies whenever he is welding a melee weapon. Now, this sounds simple, but it would make him think before reloading a gun while running past clots.

 

[Althamus]

As for the Stamina bar, I am strongly against this because no other class has a bar to fill up for something, or to drain for something.

Other classes have a reload and ammo capacity to stop them taping down M1.


I wouldn't object to a stagger instead of a stamina bar though, but the stagger timing needs to be the same for all levels IMHO.
0.5-1 second at L6 (which was bandied around) maens like 1.5-2 secs at L0-2, which is a hell of a long time to be staggering around when by definition, you are in stabby range of a zed.


Also, you do realise this makes the scythe and claymore proportionately way more OP due to not needing to aim with them (not that you can really miss entirely with a melee weapon unless you try, but still),

 

[A Civil Engineer]

Other classes have a reload and ammo capacity to stop them taping down M1.


I wouldn't object to a stagger instead of a stamina bar though, but the stagger timing needs to be the same for all levels IMHO.
0.5-1 second at L6 (which was bandied around) maens like 1.5-2 secs at L0-2, which is a hell of a long time to be staggering around when by definition, you are in stabby range of a zed.


Also, you do realise this makes the scythe and claymore proportionately way more OP due to not needing to aim with them (not that you can really miss entirely with a melee weapon unless you try, but still),

Ok, I forgot about the basics of ammo and reloading clips or mags, but the idea of a bar being filled for a melee attack, just seems a bit too much for me since all classes have the melee choice and can use it forever too (even though none of them benefit from that)

Now, if there was a bar that was filled and would lower itself, then it could be something like every successful hit makes the bar stay the same, or raises it a bit if its low, and every missed swing causes the bar to slightly lower itself. Also, every decap that leads to a bleedout kill, will resort in the bar slightly filling up. Of course running around or not meleeing will causes the bar to slowly fill up over time.

I would be interesting to see this added as a mutator.

 

[Benjamin]

Thanks for the comments guys. Also, forget I mentioned the stamina system, that was just an example of an alternate idea that was suggested.

Also, you do realise this makes the scythe and claymore proportionately way more OP due to not needing to aim with them (not that you can really miss entirely with a melee weapon unless you try, but still),

I don't follow? It means the exact opposite; not aiming well will result in your missing and thus staggering.

0.5-1 second at L6 (which was bandied around) maens like 1.5-2 secs at L0-2, which is a hell of a long time to be staggering around when by definition, you are in stabby range of a zed.

True, I think level 0 should have a fairly significant reduction over other perks, since after all the berserker is supposed to be a melee specialist.

 

[GeneralLeo1994]

Brilliant idea!

But for the zerker i'm still waiting for a Scythe/Claymore re-balance...

 

[Benjamin]

Here's a little mutator I made to give some sort of a stagger effect, although without replacing the pawn class you can't (properly) control player movement, so it's quite basic:

Killing Floor - Stagger 002 - YouTube

For the actual feature I guess some kind of scripted camera/movement sequence could be implemented, that'd look good.

Just as a little extra, perhaps the stagger could also be caused by hitting certain objects or parts of a specimen? I don't think we have an official specimen yet that would be appropriate, but hitting the brute's arm when its covering his head should cause a stagger effect.

Brilliant idea!

But for the zerker i'm still waiting for a Scythe/Claymore re-balance...

Thanks. I'm hoping this idea can be part of the 'balance' if TWI are willing to implement it.

 

[Althamus]

Now, if there was a bar that was filled and would lower itself, then it could be something like every successful hit makes the bar stay the same, or raises it a bit if its low, and every missed swing causes the bar to slightly lower itself. Also, every decap that leads to a bleedout kill, will resort in the bar slightly filling up. Of course running around or not meleeing will causes the bar to slowly fill up over time.

If some kind of bar was implemented, it would presumably be there for all classes to keep berserker the melee king (and presumably other classes would fill their bar faster).
Also, I have no real preference between a bar which fills up on a missed swing and a bar which fills on a swing. It's still a bar filling up The point of it was to stop a zerker taping down M1, and either option'd solve that.

I don't follow? It means the exact opposite; not aiming well will result in your missing and thus staggering.

When I write this, I assumed the stagger was being implemented for all melee weapons, and since claymore/scythe has an AoE effect, you can swing it at head height and still hit crawlers on the floor (which is better than swinging the katana at head height and missing the crawler).

 

[GeneralLeo1994]

For the actual feature I guess some kind of scripted camera/movement sequence could be implemented, that'd look good.

Exactly - the blur is a bit too much, and it can hurt the eyes in some cases. There were some mods in the S.T.A.L.K.E.R. series that gave the shotguns a visible kick, as the camera moved towards the hip/shoulder where the shotty was held, and just a tiny tinge of motion blur to accompany it. That would be awesome, however camera movement towards the place that the sword or farming/soul reaping equipment goes would be quite a bit of work, seeing as how there are about 5 directions (left swings, right swings, overhead swings, etc.).

 

[Benjamin]

Guys, if you want to discuss a stamina system please do so on another thread such as this one (that's the only one I found with stamina in the title, but there are more I'm sure).

New version of stagger code, thoughts?

Killing Floor - Stagger 002 - YouTube

When I write this, I assumed the stagger was being implemented for all melee weapons, and since claymore/scythe has an AoE effect, you can swing it at head height and still hit crawlers on the floor (which is better than swinging the katana at head height and missing the crawler).

True, I hadn't thought of that. Though the amount of stagger would depend on the weapon (with the knife and machete having none since they are so light), TWI would have to change their AoE melee system to one that actually requires aiming at the enemy.

Exactly - the blur is a bit too much, and it can hurt the eyes in some cases. There were some mods in the S.T.A.L.K.E.R. series that gave the shotguns a visible kick, as the camera moved towards the hip/shoulder where the shotty was held, and just a tiny tinge of motion blur to accompany it.

Agreed, the heavy blur was just there as a sort of place holder to indicate that something is happening. I'd added a sort of lurching to the new version of my code, although it needs tweaking.

That would be awesome, however camera movement towards the place that the sword or farming/soul reaping equipment goes would be quite a bit of work, seeing as how there are about 5 directions (left swings, right swings, overhead swings, etc.).

I think it's already possible to track the direction of the swing by checking bone positions, though if not they'd only have to add an extra bone to the blade tip (which would make a good AoE effect somewhat easier to program).

 

[Helifano]

I REALLY like this idea, although in the videos it seems more like just the screen is shaking than anything actually slowing your attack. The katana definitely would not need this, as it is so lightweight. Scythe and Claymore definitely, but I'm meh on the axe. The axe would probably be fine without it, but I can see how it's justifiable for it to have it.

I don't, however, see how this would be a fix to the Berserker door-camps. Sure, you'd stagger with nothing around, but with a steady horde of zeds, you don't have to often worry of missing. This seems like more of a "neat feature" than an actual fix to an issue.

Certainly has my vote.

 

[Althamus]

Looks pretty good, although it looks like the screen jumps to me, which is a little disorienting, rather than moves to the new spot.

 

[EpharGy]

Is it possible to make you go into a stop when you stagger? or at least slowed. Or would that be too much of a nerf.

 

[GeneralLeo1994]

Scythe and Claymore definitely, but I'm meh on the axe. The axe would probably be fine without it, but I can see how it's justifiable for it to have it.

Try and swing an an axe in real life through the air, putting a lot of strength into it - now hit something with it - you'll see the difference immediately . Also, perhaps it would be better if the katana/axe would get the "stagger" only in their power attacks, seeing as how it would be unbalanced otherwise.

New version of stagger code, thoughts?

Killing Floor - Stagger 002 - YouTube

My reaction to that video was simply - "Whoa". Dude you almost got it! The direction could use a little polish, but that's just about how you'd feel a missed swing IRL (even if in real life the shoulders/back muscles are the problem, not the head movement ).

EDIT: Also, mad coding skillz bro! This thing is awesome!

 

[Helifano]

Oh I agree. Axes have serious momentum. Like I said, I understand that it would be justifiable for the axe to have it. I just had this subtle idea in my mind that only the weapons that did an area of effect (Claymore/Scythe) would get it.