Level Design Asymmetrical teams?

[RAF_Pstyle]

Disclaimer: I realise that the notion of asymmetrical teams will not be to everyone’s liking. This thread is specifically here to discuss the concept for those that think it might be worth pursuing. For those that think the whole idea is a waste of time, (with all due respect) that’s OK with me, and you don’t need to spend precious moments reading or replying to this

OK so,
I’ve been toying with the idea of some really asymmetrical team loading on maps. For example, a close quarters street map where the Russians have, say a 2:1 player ratio (not reinforcements, but actual players), however the Russians are equipped with, say, only rifleman positions and maybe 1 or 2 squad leaders. The Germans have half the numbers, but much more firepower (assault weapons etc) at their disposal.

There are, undoubtedly going to be some problems with this kind of map, but that shouldn’t render the whole concept bunk. Some issues to be overcome include:
1. Map balance. Obviously balance isn’t historical, but levels need to be at least winnable for both sides in a game. I think this kind of map would have to be well tested…and well designed. But we learned with RO1 that map balanced can be, and is, adjusted on the fly as modders/ players get the feel for new maps. I don’t think balance is an insurmountable issue
2. Coding. Does the game coding even allow for asymmetrical teams (even modded levels)? Obviously, team reinforcements can be asymmetrical, but what about active players? And how do you maintain the ratio when the map is not full?
I’m sure there are more. Happy to hear about possible technical/ gameplay issues and potential solutions.

 

[Catalavos]

I've been thinking about things like this as well; mostly in an effort to create "realistic" representations of actual battles/skirmishes. For instance, Pavlov's House or the Grain Elevator where a small group of defenders held out against overwhelming odds. I think that maps like this might be total flops on a standard "pick-up" server but could be popular with realism clans and the select group of nerds like myself who really want to play historically correct maps regardless of balance. I rather like the idea of a difficult, un-balanced map because it would make winning that much sweeter.

FWIW, here are some ideas I've been kicking around. Not all (or any) of them are good ones so hold off on the negative comments, please.

1. Team A begins with "x" players and only gets re-enforcements (or arty, or tanks) if they hold off Team B for "x" minutes. Or reenforcemants for the defenders only show up after the attacking team is 1 objective from winning.

2. For the Grain Elevator-As in the real battle the Soviets have little ammo and need to defend the elevator or escape safely in order to win. After Germans capture their last objective in the elevator (signifying a theoretical win for the Germans) the dreaded lockdown timer would then start for the Soviet side and they would then need to escape the elevator and "capture" their escape point before time expires in order to pull-off a win.

3. Using minefields and obsticles to help a team with fewer players. Both could be destroyed by arty and become objectives for pioneers.

4. As in real life a Soviet team with fewer players should get more SMG's.

5. Fewer radios and ammo re-supply points

6. Better cover for randomly spawning HMG emplacements, especially for the team with fewer players.

 

[RAF_Pstyle]

2. For the Grain Elevator-As in the real battle the Soviets have little ammo and need to defend the elevator or escape safely in order to win. After Germans capture their last objective in the elevator (signifying a theoretical win for the Germans) the dreaded lockdown timer would then start for the Soviet side and they would then need to escape the elevator and "capture" their escape point before time expires in order to pull-off a win.
.

I like this idea. After "losing the map" the allies have one last chance to escape and pull off a win.

I think that maps like this might be total flops on a standard "pick-up" server but could be popular with realism clans and the select group of nerds like myself who really want to play historically correct maps regardless of balance

I think you're right. I'd certainly play this kind of map, although I'm not sure I'd play it "regardless of balance" I would expect some balancing measures, even if it was still more likely that one side wins the map.

 

[Golf33]

It's possible to have very asymmetrical, historical maps that are still equally winnable by either side. The trick is to balance the victory conditions so that the underdog side 'wins' if it does better than the historical outcome.

Close Combat 2 did this, and I applied the same technique when designing the Crete historial scenarios for Conquest of the Aegean. As an example, if the historical defenders held a position for three days before being overrun, I'd set the scenario victory conditions so that the player won if he held for longer than three days and lost if he held for less. Holding for the same amount of time as happened historically granted a draw.

That said, it's easier to do that in a strategic game like CotA than it is to do it in a first-person respawning shooter...

 

[RAF_Pstyle]

Golf33 - ah yes, good tip. some of the later/newer modded RO1 maps seem to have been able to implement similar concepts.

 

[[TW]Swag]

I've been toying with a similar idea myself. You can simulate the environment by disabling team balance:

..\Config\ROGame.INI

[ROGame.ROGameInfo]
bBalanceTeams=FALSE

Inside the map configuration for the squad setup, simply imbalance the teams there. Eventually the team with less roles will fill up and the rest will be forced to the other team simply by the virtue of the fact that there isn't any other way for them to play.

That would more or less get the idea up and going until proper support could be had with proof that the idea actually works in something outside theory.

 

[RAF_Pstyle]

I've been toying with a similar idea myself. You can simulate the environment by disabling team balance:
..\Config\ROGame.INI
[ROGame.ROGameInfo]
bBalanceTeams=FALSE
Inside the map configuration for the squad setup, simply imbalance the teams there. Eventually the team with less roles will fill up and the rest will be forced to the other team simply by the virtue of the fact that there isn't any other way for them to play.

Hmm thanks for this, might have a little play with that idea. !