Different kinds of ammo.

[Nicholas]

I'd like to see a feature where you could use different types of ammo, maybe not always by your choice, but say for example on a night map everyone could get tracer rounds, or maybe machine gunners could choose the frequency of tracers in their gun, maybe snipers could pick out different kinds of ammo like armor piercing, or some MG gunners could get armor piercing incendiaries.

http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinAmmoID01.htm

 

[Peter.Steele]

I'd like to see a feature where you could use different types of ammo, maybe not always by your choice, but say for example on a night map everyone could get tracer rounds, or maybe machine gunners could choose the frequency of tracers in their gun, maybe snipers could pick out different kinds of ammo like armor piercing, or some MG gunners could get armor piercing incendiaries.

http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinAmmoID01.htm

Good use of Ted's site, but ... not worth the effort, I don't think. Realistically, none of the different types of ammo that you could come up with are going to make any real difference in the types of targets that you'll be shooting at in the game.

Also, pretty much anything other than L or D ammo, or T-46 tracers, was intended for something other than small arms. You try shooting some of the API rounds out of a Mosin or a DP-28 and you're going to have a REALLY bad time. Most of those were intended for the ShKAS aircraft machine gun, and are way too hot to run in small arms.

 

[Nicholas]

Good use of Ted's site, but ... not worth the effort, I don't think. Realistically, none of the different types of ammo that you could come up with are going to make any real difference in the types of targets that you'll be shooting at in the game.

Also, pretty much anything other than L or D ammo, or T-46 tracers, was intended for something other than small arms. You try shooting some of the API rounds out of a Mosin or a DP-28 and you're going to have a REALLY bad time. Most of those were intended for the ShKAS aircraft machine gun, and are way too hot to run in small arms.

Good call, I'm used to modern weapons that tend to be more effecient, say for example a pistol shooting incendiaries, I guess weapons back then were different.

I do know that snipers used special match grade ammo, are sniper rifles represented as being even more accurate in the game because of this? (OST)

BY THE WAY who's Ted? Is he on this site?

 

[Ermac]

I don't think it's worth implanting. There were pretty much just standard issued bullets and that was it.

 

[Nicholas]

I don't think it's worth implanting. There were pretty much just standard issued bullets and that was it.

Except MG guys got tracers, it would be cool if they could select the frequency of tracers, like 1 out of 3 or 1 out of 5 etc.

 

[Peter.Steele]

Good call, I'm used to modern weapons that tend to be more effecient, say for example a pistol shooting incendiaries, I guess weapons back then were different.

I do know that snipers used special match grade ammo, are sniper rifles represented as being even more accurate in the game because of this? (OST)

BY THE WAY who's Ted? Is he on this site?

Ted is the guy that owns 7.62x54r.net. He's a pretty good guy. I know him from another forum.

Snipers did not, at that time, use different ammo. If you look at that chart, the 7N1 sniper ammo did not come into use until 1967. It was all either Type L or D. Lead core light or heavy ball, that's it.

As for modern weapons that are 'more efficient,' what are you talking about? There is nothing magical about a Glock or a SIG-Sauer that makes them 'more efficient' than a P08 Luger or a Walter P38. They're still firing the same 9mm round. The difference in manufacturing processes and materials, mechanical reliability, etc., doesn't make the weapon necessarily any more deadly.* Old technology doesn't necessarily mean bad tech. Look at the M1911, for instance.

(* Okay, of course if the gun jams then it's not deadly, and the P08 did have a habit of jamming. But the round itself isn't any different just because it was fired from a Glock instead of a P08.)

(That said, however, there are some things that were just never a good idea in the first place and were superseded because they sucked so hard. The 7.62x35 round for the Nagant revolver, for instance. Actually, the whole Nagant revolver in the first place. Neat concept, but it was the answer to a question that nobody ever asked.)

Also, this 9mm incendiary ammo you see advertised is sort of pointless. It's a novelty item, and not really worth spending money on. It's not going to be any more deadly, and in fact isn't likely to ignite on impact with a person.

Except MG guys got tracers, it would be cool if they could select the frequency of tracers, like 1 out of 3 or 1 out of 5 etc.

Why would they? Belts weren't really loaded in the field, and I highly doubt that they'd be reloading the DP-28 drums during action.

 

[sampsa]

Except MG guys got tracers, it would be cool if they could select the frequency of tracers, like 1 out of 3 or 1 out of 5 etc.

Yeah, what bothers me in RO:OST is that every bullet is a tracers. That flow of lazer just gives away your position too easily. I'm going to be hated for this but DH made much moer better tracers. I'd like to see smething like that.

 

[Zetsumei]

Yeah, what bothers me in RO:OST is that every bullet is a tracers. That flow of lazer just gives away your position too easily. I'm going to be hated for this but DH made much moer better tracers. I'd like to see smething like that.

Not every bullet is a tracer its more like one out of five just count them.

 

[RedGuardist]

Snipers did not, at that time, use different ammo. [..]

Yep, you are right. But still snipers sometimes used more special ammo, it was pretty common with Soviet snipers that they used incendiary rounds (ZaRa) meant for ShKAS. There are numerous accounts of that. Their German counterparts are known to have used B-bullet rounds too.

 

[prowokator]

MGs had tracers so it is easier to hit targets as you can see your bullets. Squad leaders used tracers to to direct their men's fire. "Normal" soldiers didn't really have any need to use tracer bullets. And why would they use them, only to give away their positions?

I'd like to see the squad leaders be able to take tracer ammo though.

 

[Nicholas]

Ted is the guy that owns 7.62x54r.net. He's a pretty good guy. I know him from another forum.

Snipers did not, at that time, use different ammo. If you look at that chart, the 7N1 sniper ammo did not come into use until 1967. It was all either Type L or D. Lead core light or heavy ball, that's it.

As for modern weapons that are 'more efficient,' what are you talking about? There is nothing magical about a Glock or a SIG-Sauer that makes them 'more efficient' than a P08 Luger or a Walter P38. They're still firing the same 9mm round. The difference in manufacturing processes and materials, mechanical reliability, etc., doesn't make the weapon necessarily any more deadly.* Old technology doesn't necessarily mean bad tech. Look at the M1911, for instance.

(* Okay, of course if the gun jams then it's not deadly, and the P08 did have a habit of jamming. But the round itself isn't any different just because it was fired from a Glock instead of a P08.)

(That said, however, there are some things that were just never a good idea in the first place and were superseded because they sucked so hard. The 7.62x35 round for the Nagant revolver, for instance. Actually, the whole Nagant revolver in the first place. Neat concept, but it was the answer to a question that nobody ever asked.)

Also, this 9mm incendiary ammo you see advertised is sort of pointless. It's a novelty item, and not really worth spending money on. It's not going to be any more deadly, and in fact isn't likely to ignite on impact with a person.





Why would they? Belts weren't really loaded in the field, and I highly doubt that they'd be reloading the DP-28 drums during action.

I didn't say they were more "effecient", just maybe able to withstand more types of ammo, I fired a Glock with rounds covered in sand and it still worked, could you do that with a Luger for example?

And yes I know incendiaries aren't magical, they're used to ignite fuel tanks, but against people they don't actually do much, if they did it would be even better than an IS2.

 

[LemoN]

You try shooting some of the API rounds out of a Mosin or a DP-28 and you're going to have a REALLY bad time.

Well, I used to shoot API rounds (black&red tip) with a M44 from time to time.
Nice little explosions if you hit something.

I used up my whole stash of 50 API's, not one malfuction, not one blown out or deformed primer, no signs of overpressure, not even increased recoil.

 

[Nicholas]

Well, I used to shoot API rounds (black&red tip) with a M44 from time to time.
Nice little explosions if you hit something.

I used up my whole stash of 50 API's, not one malfuction, not one blown out or deformed primer, no signs of overpressure, not even increased recoil.

Its armor piercing because of the bullet itself, and the incendiary effect comes from a chemical mixture in the bullet, it doesn't mean the casing is supercharged.

 

[OneDuck]

A bit OT here, I know that in the trench warfare of WWI snipers used different ammo. And it wasn't really different, the soldiers simply removed the bullet from the case and put it back in the case but with the tip inwards into the case. This was to counter the sniper shields used back then since the impact of that bullet against the shield would send hot iron flying everywhere into the face of the other sniper. It was a counter-measure of sorts.

However I can't recall any episode of this type of ammo ever being used in WWII since there was never any need for sniper shields, that was something that was born and died with WWI.

 

[Nicholas]

A bit OT here, I know that in the trench warfare of WWI snipers used different ammo. And it wasn't really different, the soldiers simply removed the bullet from the case and put it back in the case but with the tip inwards into the case. This was to counter the sniper shields used back then since the impact of that bullet against the shield would send hot iron flying everywhere into the face of the other sniper. It was a counter-measure of sorts.

However I can't recall any episode of this type of ammo ever being used in WWII since there was never any need for sniper shields, that was something that was born and died with WWI.

Do you mean hollowpoint ammo?

 

[Peter.Steele]

Yep, you are right. But still snipers sometimes used more special ammo, it was pretty common with Soviet snipers that they used incendiary rounds (ZaRa) meant for ShKAS. There are numerous accounts of that. Their German counterparts are known to have used B-bullet rounds too.

Hm. I'm not really familiar with this. I've always read that ShKAS-intended rounds were not to be used in small arms, in much the same way, and for the same reasons, that 7.62x25 intended for SMGs was not to be used in TT-33's or other pistols. Too hot, tended to grenade the weapon.

Well, I used to shoot API rounds (black&red tip) with a M44 from time to time.
Nice little explosions if you hit something.

I used up my whole stash of 50 API's, not one malfuction, not one blown out or deformed primer, no signs of overpressure, not even increased recoil.

Lucky you! Both for having them, and for not grenading the rifle.

It's also really depressing to me when I find out about places where people can have / do things that would get me arrested and sent to prison for a very long time in California.

 

[LemoN]

A bit OT here, I know that in the trench warfare of WWI snipers used different ammo. And it wasn't really different, the soldiers simply removed the bullet from the case and put it back in the case but with the tip inwards into the case. This was to counter the sniper shields used back then since the impact of that bullet against the shield would send hot iron flying everywhere into the face of the other sniper. It was a counter-measure of sorts.

Smells like BS.

 

[OneDuck]

Do you mean hollowpoint ammo?

I suppose, I honestly don't know the technical term. The bullets were only reversed to have a greater impact.

Smells like BS.

Digging Up The Trenches - History Channel is where I learned about this tactic in more detail. It's a 2 hours documentary about a modern archeological dig in the Flander's Fields. They mention it because they find one such sniper plate on the British trench.

For reference:

"To allow a soldier to see out of the trench without exposing his head, a loophole could be built into the parapet. A loophole might simply be a gap in the sandbags, or it might be fitted with a steel plate. German snipers used armour-piercing bullets that allowed them to penetrate loopholes. Another means to see over the parapet was the trench periscope

 

[Peter.Steele]

The reversed-bullet thing was actually done. It wasn't effective, particularly, but it was done.

The factory ammunition was disassembled, and the bullet re-inserted into the cartridge facing backwards, then crimped.

All it did was effectively turn the thing into a soft-point bullet. You'd get some expansion, etc. Against a soft target, yeah, it'd work - and relatively well, out to about 100-200 yards or so.

Against a hard target, like a piece of plate? Not really so much. The idea was that, since you now had the full diameter of the round hitting the plate all at once that you might be able to overmatch a thinnish sheet metal splinter shield and spall the back of it, wounding or killing whoever was behind it. Problem is, any metal that's light enough to be effectively overmatched by a .30-cal round inserted backwards is also light enough to be effectively penetrated by the round inserted frontwards.

 

[OneDuck]

Against a hard target, like a piece of plate? Not really so much. The idea was that, since you now had the full diameter of the round hitting the plate all at once that you might be able to overmatch a thinnish sheet metal splinter shield and spall the back of it, wounding or killing whoever was behind it. Problem is, any metal that's light enough to be effectively overmatched by a .30-cal round inserted backwards is also light enough to be effectively penetrated by the round inserted frontwards.

Well, according to that documentary they did it not to pierce the plate itself but to send showers of steel or iron sparks into the face of the sniper, to cause serious injuries like blindness. It was more of a demoralizing move on both sides to try and suppress sniping. According to the sources I've seen and read, it was an invention that soldiers in the field came up with at the same time, both Allies and the Central Power. The sniper plate was so effective that they had to come up with a way to discourage snipers from using them. Like many tactics in WWI it was met with variable success. The bullet was always aimed at the opening, obviously, so the sparks could effectively damage the sniper.

Thanks for the explanation on the procedure, I'm not good when it comes explaining the technical side of these kind of tactics.