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Russian AT rifle highly underpowered?

LSD

Grizzled Veteran
Oct 28, 2009
76
34
Lincoln, England
I was playing a 1 on 1 with a friend and asked if i could test out the russian AT rifle on his Panzer V. After getting behind him and firing off a good 5 rounds, i hadn't even damaged his tank, let alone detroyed it. It took 13 shots to the REAR armour to get his engine to catch fire, and another 3 shots to blow up the tank. Since a panzer V is a pretty average tank, with very weak rear armour...surely it shouldn't be this hard to destroy. After testing again on his Pazner V using a Paznerfaust, i managed to 1 hit kill the tank with a shot to the rear armour.
Even if this is just a "realistic" aspect of the game, balance wise, this is bullschidt.:confused:

EDIT: Panzer V - AKA Panther, not Panzer IV.
 
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I was playing a 1 on 1 with a friend and asked if i could test out the russian AT rifle on his PanzerIV. After getting behind him and firing off a good 5 rounds, i hadn't even damaged his tank, let alone detroyed it. It took 13 shots to the REAR armour to get his engine to catch fire, and another 3 shots to blow up the tank..:confused:

This doesnt usually happen matey. Usually 3 MAX!
 
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Crap, seems it was a Panzer V not a Panzer IV. Still, surely i should have been able to destroy it faster?
Is there a certain area to aim at? I made sure not to be aiming at a sloped angle, since the first shot ricocheted.

Tried this again on a StuG III, shooting the side and rear armour, and it took 8 shots to destroy. Took out the tread on shot 4-5, engine caught fire on shot 6. I seriously hope it's just because i suck...I'm still pretty new to all this :/
 
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Well if you look at it like this, if someone new to the game can pick up the AT rifle and start owning with it, it would be classed as overpowered right?

Like all weapons in RO, they are extremely deadly in the right hands.

Alright, well i've given it a few hours, and i'm slightly better. Seems it gets more powerful the closer you are. Who would have thought *ahem*. Almost got 3 tanks destroyed in one life >_>
Camping around the bridge on Arad, or the craters seems to work wonders. Love using it as a sniper rifle too xD

Also, at the guy who posted videos, thanks man, i'll test those tricks out.

Just one question, does anyone have any tips for taking out treads? I'm trying to be a nuisance to enemy tanks to distract them from friendly tanks, and holding them down with a broken tread works wonders...but it's so hard to do. Is there a knack to it?
 
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LSD said:
i managed to 1 hit kill the tank with a shot to the rear armour. Even if this is just a "realistic" aspect of the game, balance wise, this is bullschidt.

No it is not realistic. That thing is very overpowered in game! The PTRD was considered an obsolete weapon and by 1943 the PTRD/PTRS were relegated to anti-material duty rather than for anti-tank purposes. Realistically, the PTRD was capable of penetrating only 35 mm @ 100 meters @ 0 degrees which realistically would make it incapable of penetrating any German tank frontally in game. Side shots on vehicles such as the Panzer III & IV required perpendicular and extremely close range shots as their side armor was 30 mm. With the addition of the side skirts the PTRD was rendered effectively useless.

Unfortunately, in game the PTRD is a portable 76 mm weapon. It can penetrate things that should never be penetrated. The game code for the PTRD has it penetrating 80 mm. As a direct result, side skirt variants of the Panzer IV (which was proof vs the PTRD) offer no protection:
YouTube - PTRD vs Panzer IV H side skirts




Even Tigers and Panthers are taken out by it:
YouTube - Red Orchestra NoWay#01 PTRD-41 on Arad





This is as ludicrous as making the "Panzerb
 
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Alright, well i've given it a few hours, and i'm slightly better. Seems it gets more powerful the closer you are. Who would have thought *ahem*. Almost got 3 tanks destroyed in one life >_>
Camping around the bridge on Arad, or the craters seems to work wonders. Love using it as a sniper rifle too xD

Also, at the guy who posted videos, thanks man, i'll test those tricks out.

Just one question, does anyone have any tips for taking out treads? I'm trying to be a nuisance to enemy tanks to distract them from friendly tanks, and holding them down with a broken tread works wonders...but it's so hard to do. Is there a knack to it?

When you travel through the air you have a constant force acting against you in a direction opposite your motion....friction....wind resistance.

After bullets have left the air they come into a state known as "free fall" in which they stop accelerating. So essentially you lose velocity over distance. And because kinetic energy is directly proportional (it increases as velocity increases) to velocity, this means the round loses energy over time and thus is less capable of penetrating armor over longer distances.

So the game is modeling that effect correctly, your ability to penetrate armor in game is going to be directly proportional to your distance from the tank in addition to what thickness of armor and slope you're attempting to penetrate (although you clearly understand that).

As TT33 said, the PTRD was only capable of penetrating thin armor on tanks, late war tanks had very, very thick armor and thus were essentially impervious to anti-tank rifles requiring shots to weak points in the armor to achieve penetration. The RO model is such that, for whatever reason, despite your round penetrating, it does a set amount of damage to the tank's health. The PTRD's damage is nonsensically low, probably to compensate for the real world unlikelihood of penetration.

By the way the Panzerfaust essentially was capable of penetrating the frontal armor of any tank in World War 2, even most super heavy tanks and tank destroyers anywhere within its effective range. It was kind of an enigma of its time, far beyond the capacity of tank armor to withstand it.

So it's basically a matter of realism versus game balance.

But if you think of it as a game balance issue, consider this....the PTRD can be used as a long range sniper rifle. It kills in a single shot in nearly every part of the body at any range with a obscene velocity. It is single shot and thus fires about half as slow as a bolt action rifle but this is compensated by the velocity of the round making it easier to hit human targets. You also get a handy bipod meaning you can get a recoilless and driftless mount for the operation of your little sniper rifle. This is not entirely realistic but it is awesome. I spent a little while plinking away at bots and noobs on Leningrad and dear god it was some of the most fun I've ever had.

EDIT:

TT33 I hope the penetration values are not that extreme in the RO model. If so this needs to be fixed. Like I say, though, I do think it balances out somewhat by the fact that the PTRD has a tendency to require half a dozen to a dozen shots to kill medium tanks or even troop transports even upon penetration.

I also want to add for a comparison that modern ammunition out of a PTRD has a kinetic energy of 30,000J versus multiple millions of joules of kinetic energy for even an average AP shell for your average medium tank. There's a significant difference in penetrative capacity for obvious reasons.
 
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I hope the penetration values are not that extreme in the RO model. If so this needs to be fixed. Like I say, though, I do think it balances out somewhat by the fact that the PTRD has a tendency to require half a dozen to a dozen shots to kill medium tanks or even troop transports even upon penetration.








Take a look at this:
RO PTRD game code said:
// PTRDBullet
//=============================================================================
// Bullet for PTRD AT Rifle
// defaultproperties
//=============================================================================
defaultproperties
{
>>>>>> PenetrationTable(0)=8
PenetrationTable(1)=7
PenetrationTable(2)=7
PenetrationTable(3)=6
PenetrationTable(4)=6
PenetrationTable(5)=5
PenetrationTable(6)=4
PenetrationTable(7)=3
PenetrationTable(8)=2
PenetrationTable(9)=1
PenetrationTable(10)=0
}
RO Tiger I game code said:
// TigerTank
//
// Copyright (C) 2004 John "Ramm-Jaeger" Gibson
//
// Mighty Tiger1 Heavy tank
//===================================================================
class TigerTank extends ROTreadCraft;
// Armor
FrontArmorFactor=14//11
>>>>>> SideArmorFactor=8
>>>>>> RearArmorFactor=8
}








So according to this stuff the in game PTRD is able to penetrate the side and rear of the Tiger I tank which is 8 cm (80 mm) thick. In this PTRD video take a look at 4:25 mins (Tiger I side penetration) and 4:37 mins (Tiger I rear penetration). Highly overpowered as someone stated above it should only be doing 35 mm of penetration not 80 mm!

YouTube - Red Orchestra Uso del PTRDhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23QsdbhIF2E
 
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VariousNames said:
The PTRD's damage is nonsensically low, probably to compensate for the real world unlikelihood of penetration.
It is a 14.5 mm round after penetration effects would be very minor (more or less like shooting a rifle off inside a tank) unless it actually hits a crew member or a soft critical area, even hit to the engine may not do too much as most of the round's power is spent penetrating the 30 mm thick side armor (from the engines I've seen which are thick metal blocks). Another thing is round shatter the 14.5mm round is traveling at 1012 m/s vs a plate of steel that over matches this small round more than twice over. Round failures for the PTRD would have been quite high even if on paper it should have succeeded especially due to the fact the rifle would have to have been shot from close range (0 to ~100 meters ) in order to have a chance of penetrating the side armor which would have compounded the round shatter problem.

Tank! said:
Highly overpowered as someone stated above it should only be doing 35 mm of penetration not 80 mm!
It should under ideal conditions do 35mm @ 100 meters at 0 degrees the other ranges should be below 35mm. In the Game I think it states the PTRD is using the very rare APCR ammo which would have probably been issued in 1943-44 after the PTRD became primarily an anti-material rifle rather than an anti-tank however it is interesting because the APCR only only adds 5mm of penetration to its ability 40mm @ 100 meters at 0 degrees which is still quite insufficient to effectively counter tanks.
 
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no, it isn't underpowered. if you want to damage enemy tank, you must hit critical points......

but i think that all the damage-system of RO:OST should be fixed and improved. PTRD own tigers.......:eek:

yesterday, i flank enemy's Panther at arad......

i was using t-34/85 and i hit the panther 2 times from about 25-30 meters (i was very very near it) in the lateral armour (40mm) without angle....(max 5
 
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RiccardoTheBeAst said:
no, it isn't underpowered. if you want to damage enemy tank, you must hit critical points
The problem with that is that the so-called weakspots or critical areas are inside the vehicle for example the ammo point and engine. The frontal armor on the thinnest armored tank in game is 50mm well over the theoretical penetration ability of the PTRD thus the weak spot can not be hit because the armor can not be penetrated.




RiccardoTheBeAst said:
PTRD own tigers
thats not really the point the point is that it can effectively deal with pretty much all German and even soviet armor (on maps that give the PTRD to the Germans) from any direction where realistically it should have no chance of penetrating any German tank modeled in game frontally and extreme difficulty vs even the side armor of these tanks (not counting the side skirted tanks which were impervious to PTRD fire).
 
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The PTRD is unrealisticly overpowered and is a killing-machine in expert hands... sure.

The Panzerfaust is still much easier to use and as a tank I got killed by infantry units :
- by a Panzerfaust = 90%
- by a PTRD = 10%

I don't know what the numbers would be (50/50 ?) if every single PTRD was a weak-spot expert... until now, most of them are pretty beginners (myself included) with that rifle.
 
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if some of you are just now coming to the realization that RO is not that realistic welcome to the club :p

I didn't see it mentioned but if you go to the Downloads section of this forum (http://www.redorchestragame.com/index.php?categoryid=3&p13_sectionid=2) they have readouts of the tanks and show where the ammunition and engines are (some tanks have more than one ammo rack). Aiming for the ammunition is what I usually do, and I find it by counting back the wheels from the front of the tank. Panthers and Tigers in 2 shots, most other German tanks in one. Don't even bother shooting at an IS2 with it.

Also recardo learning the ammunition locations is very helpful while gunning a tank. If you had shot that Panther slightly above and inbetween the 4th and 5th wheels (including front sprocket as a wheel) then it would have gone up in one shot. You were likely hitting nothing vital and that Tiger just sent a shell into the back and out of the front of your tank, smacking into everything important on the way.

Aw shiz necro post, sorry I have failed you...
 
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the ptrd is just misunderstood by the majority of players, like the OP for example (at first that is). a lot of people simply don't learn how to use the weapon. they don't know where to shoot and they rage when it takes them 8 shots just to see some smoke. as those videos have shown, it's possible to 1 shot kill many light/medium tanks and 2 or 3 shot medium/heavy tanks. heck, i was amazed when i took out a panther with two shots to the back the other day on PTAI-WFT arad real forests5......was the full width of the map too. the prtd in the right hands is extremely powerful.

as for how realistic the damage is, you've got to look at it from a game balance perspective. think of games like COD that had the ptrd in it.....i remember it was either the original or UO that had some mission i think pavlov's house where you held off an entire building with a ptrd against like 10 german tanks. you could take one shot and kill each tank LOL. at least in RO it's not THAT terrible for all the tanks :D

the thing is each side has to have anti tank weapons. both sides have satchels which are equally effective. the germans have the panzerfausts that are beasts even for the most rookie player. the russians need something that's roughly equal to the panzerfaust, so they are given the ptrd. since the ptrd in reality isn't anywhere need as powerful as a panzerfaust, i can accept the game altering the power to try and balance out the weapons. is it perfectly realistic? no, but for balance's sake, it's needed. plus, look at how rare it is to see a good ptrd man....the primary german anti-tank weapon is still more powerful than the russian primary anti-tank weapon in that unless properly trained, the average player will not be anywhere near as effective with the ptrd as he is with the panzerfaust.
 
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The PTRD is unrealisticly overpowered and is a killing-machine in expert hands... sure.

The Panzerfaust is still much easier to use and as a tank I got killed by infantry units :
- by a Panzerfaust = 90%
- by a PTRD = 10%

I don't know what the numbers would be (50/50 ?) if every single PTRD was a weak-spot expert... until now, most of them are pretty beginners (myself included) with that rifle.

yeah ,panzerfaust is overpowered too.....with two panzerfaust's shot you can destroy tiger or even JS2 :eek::eek:
 
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yeah ,panzerfaust is overpowered too.....with two panzerfaust's shot you can destroy tiger or even JS2 :eek::eek:

Facepalm

Panzerfaust can penetrate 200mm @ 90 degrees

considering the velocity of the PF, which is under 50 meters per second, you have to arc it like a mortar shell, which means the orientation of the projectile when it hits the armor plate is going to be far less than the angle of the plate to the horizontal....you're going to get penetration virtually equal to the 90 degree penetration value of the faust (again, 200mm).

The frontal armor of an IS-2 is only 120mm at 60 degrees. Even if you hit the frontal plate at point blank with horizontal orientation, the Panzerfaust will easily penetrate in real life. The side armor is only 90mm at 15 degrees, which means the Panzerfaust will obliterate IS-2 with a side shot.

A Panzerfaust can penetrate the frontal armor of any tank in World War 2, with the exception of maybe super heavy tanks/destroyers like Jagdtiger, and destroy the crew in a single shot. The blast actually releases hot gases at 8000 meters per second in a concentrated area, which generally speaking tends to kill people.

So realistically the faust should kill any tank in Ost with one shot from any angle.
 
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