Frustrations of a Firebug

[Godzilla97]

Demoman has significant limitations regarding reloading.
Firebug, has almost no such limitations.
Firebug vs Demoman with anything less than an m32?
Firebug vs Demoman even with m32 - the Demoman is useless for, what is it, 12 seconds while he reloads? Sure, he can pick another weapon but that still takes time and just delays the problem until later.
Demoman gets a one time shot, if he misses, he has to reshoot, which can be enough time for the enemy to get somewhere. Firebug just realigns his spray.

You excluded the advantages of Pipe Bombs which is what completely turns the tide against Firebugs. In your example, a level 5 Demo can have large amount of pipe bombs ready to set for defense line so he can take his 12 seconds to reload those 6 grenades into his M32. While I would find it odd for a Demo Perk to reload when things are heating up instead of using their secondary weapon until coast is clear; I will take that into account for a disadvantage for a Demo Perk. Anyways, looking at real games especially on Suicidal, I have my doubts that a Level 5+ Demo has not gained the knowledge on how to efficiently wield their weapons.

I admit, I am generalizing that the wielder of Demo are competent in contrast to your average trigger happy player. Unfortunately, I am going to stand on my point from personal experience that, like the previous poster stated, they don't aim head on; they aim for the terrain which causes area damage and understand the advantages of their weapon to wipe out horde of ZEDs.

Edit: I don't mean to push buttons on Firebugs, but they do have limitations when it comes to ammo. Even when they cautiously flame on, in Wave 9/10 they usually end up empty and resort to whatever secondary weapon they have.

5 gas canisters is not doing the trick, in my opinion.

 

[Jon]

Since teammates can share money, kills should not be a problem and don't really count for anything other than measuring your Epenis.

I honestly don't think kills should be counted, as yes, all it does is promote e-penis rubbing.

 

[geoxile]

Firebugs still need an update. They're left out in the dark from cool new stuff, wtf man.

 

[DocDave]

Yeah, while the 6th perk level increased most damage by between 0 and 10%, the new weapons increased damage output for their perks to roughly in the range of 150% to 300%.

Boosting certain perks by about 200% base weapon dps + 10% perk bonus... while boosting others by 5% total seems a very short-sighted move, and I hope FB and Zerk are brought up to par soon.

 

[XyzKiller]

Zerker is defiantly not over-powered.

 

[DocDave]

Gonna post this here, too, since it's relevant imo.

Keep in mind it's done assuming only a single target, and takes reload times (however, not perk bonus to reload times) into account. Notice not only the last column's disparity between Zerker/FB and Sup/Comm, but also the next to last column, "Max DPS" and the large disparity there, assuming only one target is being hit at a time.

Unfortunately there is no way to calculate in the odd disadvantages of the firebug, such as very slow, arcing projectiles, no perk-boosted backup weapon once ammo is out, the sight-impairment, lack of an ironsight, the poor range, etc etc.

 

[Nanostrike]

I'm really, really trying to level Firebug to 6, but it feels like a crippled class. By far the worst part is that once the Flamethrower is out of ammo...you have nothing to fall back on and still level except for your 5 nades.

Worse yet, the Flamethrower is freakin' HUGE. With it, you don't have ROOM for a backup weapon. The only backups you can get are:

-Machete
-Katana
-MP7
-Second 9mm
-Handcannon
-Dual Handcannon

That's. It. The Machete and MP7 are about useless for you. The second 9mm is iffy at best, and the Katana and Handcannon options are expensive, at $500 or $1000! Plus when you fall back on them...instantly, you're no longer leveling Firebug. And if you die without one of them out, you've just lost your $500/$1000 investment. Yay!

The Flamethrower/Nades aren't big DPS things either, so expending ALL of your ammo still gets you piddly damage compared to emptying all the rounds of an AA12 or SCAR...

 

[Trinitem]

You obviously take the backseat as the firebug, but I still find it really annoying to have the inability to effectively dispatch anything gorefast + without horrible inefficiency. Gorefasts on hard and suicide will laugh off your flames until you spam them to their final fall. Sure, you're probably supposed to leave them to the commando/m14SS anyways, but it's still a little pet peeve when you are getting slashed by gorefasts unless you sacrifice 20% of your canister to torch em down.

- ammo depletion is quick as hell (like seriously, the flamebug is the clot and crawler buster at best if you want to play the ammo conservation game)

- no secondary weapon (heck! modify the axe to be like the axtinguisher in tf2 or something. I just want something to play with when I hear the gas run out.)

I really don't know how you could improve the firebug to be more attractive, but a new weapon really would be nice.

 

[Godzilla97]

I'm really, really trying to level Firebug to 6, but it feels like a crippled class. By far the worst part is that once the Flamethrower is out of ammo...you have nothing to fall back on and still level except for your 5 nades.

If it's possible, I suggest to buy another flamethrower or two and drop them off at whatever designated barricade your team are holding (unless the trader is real far or you're playing Farm). It's the only way Firebugs can keep up the firepower until they use their secondary weapons.

 

[SpurryMoses]

You excluded the advantages of Pipe Bombs which is what completely turns the tide against Firebugs.

I did. The way the pipebombs work now definitely needs to be nerfed.
BTW I've raised a suggestion for that here - http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=38979

 

[Nenjin]

I don't think the Firebug is completely gimped, but it's fairly boring to play, and ammo consumption is still an issue even after their capacity was buffed. But until wave 9/10, on hard, I can manage to stretch my ammo out.

Worse yet, the Flamethrower is freakin' HUGE. With it, you don't have ROOM for a backup weapon. The only backups you can get are:

-Machete
-Katana
-MP7
-Second 9mm
-Handcannon
-Dual Handcannon

The M79, too. Unless something was changed recently. Between the Flamethrower and M79, I can unleash a lot of destruction, especially on campy maps like Suburbia. Close range it's not that hot of a combation, but with firing room, you can lay waste to an area of non-hardened sprecimen.

 

[Nanostrike]

I don't think the Firebug is completely gimped, but it's fairly boring to play, and ammo consumption is still an issue even after their capacity was buffed. But until wave 9/10, on hard, I can manage to stretch my ammo out.

The M79, too. Unless something was changed recently. Between the Flamethrower and M79, I can unleash a lot of destruction, especially on campy maps like Suburbia. Close range it's not that hot of a combation, but with firing room, you can lay waste to an area of non-hardened sprecimen.

The multi-flamethrower works, but like most multi-weapon setups, you tend to end up with half a dozen Flamethrowers with all of 20 rounds left in them lying everywhere. Plus it starts to get expensive, having to buy/refill multiple weapons each round.

If the M-79 only weighs 4 blocks and you can carry it (Haven't checked, but I'll look into it), I guess that'd work. But it's $1,200 and costs a full $10 a shot, so it's pretty pricy and unless you're in a very specific situation, Firebugs tend to not have a ton of big-money kills. Plus, like you said, it's not great in close range.

And, as many demomen will attest to, it can't 1-shot Gorefasts either. Still useful, as you can "finish" weakened Gorefasts with it, or hit them with a grenade, stunning them for disposal with the Flamethrower. But you've gotta do it fast. Teammates WILL steal the kills...

 

[DocDave]

M79 is a decent sidearm for any perk, except for the ammo cost. As I suggested here, all the Firebug's explosives could do fire damage, not just his grenades. This would give the Firebug "new" weapons, and while he would not do more damage than before, it would give him incentive to use the grenade launchers, as he could use them at close range, unlike the demo. Smaller discounts and damage increases with them might be nice as well. This would also be a super-easy update.

 

[XyzKiller]

You excluded the advantages of Pipe Bombs which is what completely turns the tide against Firebugs. In your example, a level 5 Demo can have large amount of pipe bombs ready to set for defense line so he can take his 12 seconds to reload those 6 grenades into his M32. While I would find it odd for a Demo Perk to reload when things are heating up instead of using their secondary weapon until coast is clear; I will take that into account for a disadvantage for a Demo Perk. Anyways, looking at real games especially on Suicidal, I have my doubts that a Level 5+ Demo has not gained the knowledge on how to efficiently wield their weapons.

I admit, I am generalizing that the wielder of Demo are competent in contrast to your average trigger happy player. Unfortunately, I am going to stand on my point from personal experience that, like the previous poster stated, they don't aim head on; they aim for the terrain which causes area damage and understand the advantages of their weapon to wipe out horde of ZEDs.

Edit: I don't mean to push buttons on Firebugs, but they do have limitations when it comes to ammo. Even when they cautiously flame on, in Wave 9/10 they usually end up empty and resort to whatever secondary weapon they have.

5 gas canisters is not doing the trick, in my opinion.

...Godzilla just owned you.

 

[Nanostrike]

M79 is a decent sidearm for any perk, except for the ammo cost. As I suggested here, all the Firebug's explosives could do fire damage, not just his grenades. This would give the Firebug "new" weapons, and while he would not do more damage than before, it would give him incentive to use the grenade launchers, as he could use them at close range, unlike the demo. Smaller discounts and damage increases with them might be nice as well. This would also be a super-easy update.

The cost gets ridiculous quick with the M-79, though. You're talking an extra ~$300 per round for a full reload. As much as I hate to say it, I wish they'd given the M-79 (Not the M-32, though. It's a full-on demo weapon) Fire grenades. Just so I'd have something besides the Lamethrower to dish out fire with...

 

[DocDave]

The cost gets ridiculous quick with the M-79, though. You're talking an extra ~$300 per round for a full reload. As much as I hate to say it, I wish they'd given the M-79 (Not the M-32, though. It's a full-on demo weapon) Fire grenades. Just so I'd have something besides the Lamethrower to dish out fire with...

I've come to realize that since the problem was caused by the disparity between all the new weapons and the old ones, the Firebug does not need a side-arm or side-grade at all, he needs a beefed up primary weapon.

Lamethrower indeed; he needs to have a flamethrower with more damage, either update his current one or make an upgrade to one that's better.

 

[Undedd Jester]

The problem isn't that X perk makes FB useless...it's that FB has never been as engaging a perk to play as the others. FB is just the current unloved child of KF's perks. It was Medic before.

Would it be wierd of me to say my 2 original and still favourite perks are Medic then Firebug? Mostly cause you never saw them.

Keeping on topic I wouldn't say Firebug is useless, it was the second class I got to level 6, and its crowd control is phenominal, especially at Level 6. Hunters have always been a problem with Killing Floor, and since Sharpshooter and Demo are bloody good perks and are overpowered, most hunters tend to play em.

I myself tend to play in some servers and if people want to go rambo, I'll let them go rambo and will eagerly wait for them to run out of ammo since most of them spam bullets like no tommorow. Or they get rushed from behind by a scrake/fleshie, which gives you an perfect oppurtunity to reenact Rorschach in Watchmen saying "They'll ask me to save them, and I'll look down and whisper... no..."

If you want something rewarding playing firebug... burn a bloat until it explodes.. I dunno why but that pop is sooooo damn satifying

 

[Nenjin]

The ammo cost of the M79 is trivial, given that FB ammo costs next to nothing. Even if you're not racking up kills, on hard, you'll get enough money from the end-of-wave-bonus to fill both the FT and the M79.

 

[defragen1]

i have an idea!!

a second flamethrower thats lighter by 2 blocks than the first one but more expensive

 

[DocDave]

The ammo cost of the M79 is trivial, given that FB ammo costs next to nothing. Even if you're not racking up kills, on hard, you'll get enough money from the end-of-wave-bonus to fill both the FT and the M79.

Great, so we've established that a Firebug can have a non-perk weapon for a sidearm. Big deal. Every other perk could do that too, but is much better off picking one of their own perk weapons for a sidearm. This only illustrates the problem even more. Firebug needs a better primary weapon and it needs side-arms for it's perk.